How long to attain first jhana?

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Meditation, e.g. meditation postures, developing a regular sitting practice, skillfully relating to difficulties and hindrances, etc.
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oatsandmilk
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How long to attain first jhana?

Post by oatsandmilk »

I have been meditating for about five years or little more. But I cannot say I have ever reached jhana. Only been able to feel peaceful and tranquil.

However on Reddit there are a few who reached first jhana in less than a month or even less than a week.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Meditation/com ... ain_jhana/

Is it because they had a purer mind? What role does purity of mind (by which I mean lack of Kleshas, the ten defilements listed in Abhidhamma) have to play?

:anjali:
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Ceisiwr
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Re: How long to attain first jhana?

Post by Ceisiwr »

oatsandmilk wrote: Tue Nov 24, 2020 4:54 pm I have been meditating for about five years or little more. But I cannot say I have ever reached jhana. Only been able to feel peaceful and tranquil.

However on Reddit there are a few who reached first jhana in less than a month or even less than a week.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Meditation/com ... ain_jhana/

Is it because they had a purer mind? What role does purity of mind (by which I mean lack of Kleshas, the ten defilements listed in Abhidhamma) have to play?

:anjali:
People define the jhanas differently. Some have a “lite” view of Jhana whilst others view them as difficult to obtain absorbed states. Those laypeople who claim to have experienced them tend to be of the “lite” Jhana camp. To experience Jhana you need a firm grounding in virtue, ideally the 8 precepts. You also need some experience with basic satipatthana practice. After that anapanasati is a good practice for developing the Jhanas. I would advise following the advise contained in the Patisambhidamagga, Vimuttimagga and Visuddhimagga. This is also good from Ledi Sayadaw: http://www.ffmt.fr/articles/maitres/Led ... ayadaw.pdf
Last edited by Ceisiwr on Tue Nov 24, 2020 5:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
coconut
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Re: How long to attain first jhana?

Post by coconut »

oatsandmilk wrote: Tue Nov 24, 2020 4:54 pm I have been meditating for about five years or little more. But I cannot say I have ever reached jhana. Only been able to feel peaceful and tranquil.

However on Reddit there are a few who reached first jhana in less than a month or even less than a week.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Meditation/com ... ain_jhana/

Is it because they had a purer mind? What role does purity of mind (by which I mean lack of Kleshas, the ten defilements listed in Abhidhamma) have to play?

:anjali:
You don't know what they experienced.

I've been meditating for 15+ years starting with the book "Mindfulness in Plain English" by Bhante Gunaratana. I was getting samatha, piti and sukha, already in the first year after reading it. I only got fourth jhana for the first time after 8 years, following instructions by Ayya Khema's video on jhanas, and also her student's book "Right Concentration" by Leigh Brasington.

Although today I can barely get first jhana as my neck is constantly stiff and painful which distracts me. The last time I had first jhana was a year ago.

The reason is because my lifestyle wasn't as good as before, before I was a lot more stricter with diet and everything else, so I've fallen back.

If you want to get first jhana easy, you need to follow the lifestyle requirements strictly:

- Don't break the 5 precepts
- Intermittent fasting, no more than two meals a day and not eating past lunch time
- Celibacy as much as you can
- Brahma viharas and asubha to fight off the main hindrances: desire and ill will
- Consistent daily meditation and keep your attention on the breath from the nose/eyebrow to your belly and watch it shorten
- Your body needs to be in good shape, you can't be stiff, so make sure your bed is good and you're not on computers too much and not playing video games.

In the end, you have to make a decision, the sensual lay life, or the ascetic life, you can't have both, you can't play video games and be overstimulated and also attain jhanas. Your brain needs energy, and for you to not waste it.
Mr. Seek
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Re: How long to attain first jhana?

Post by Mr. Seek »

I think it's all about the method. You can "meditate" for 80 years, attain feats of psychic power, and still not get into Buddhist-proper jhana if your method is wrong. If anyone were to ask me about this stuff, I'd say just read the suttas and ponder with discernment, so that's what I'll advise you. DN 2 gives a good summary of what you need to attain jhana.

Virtue -> Sense Restraint -> Mindfulness and Alertness -> Contentedness -> Abandoning the Hindrances -> Jhana -> Unbinding

Now, what each of these elements means, and how it's carried out, that's something you'll have to read about.
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Re: How long to attain first jhana?

Post by Ceisiwr »

Mr. Seek wrote: Tue Nov 24, 2020 5:49 pm I think it's all about the method. You can "meditate" for 80 years and still not get into jhana if your method is wrong. If anyone were to ask me about this stuff, I'd say just read the suttas and ponder with discernment, so that's what I'll advise you.

DN 2 gives a good summary of what you need to attain jhana.

Virtue -> Sense Restraint -> Mindfulness and Alertness -> Contentedness -> Abandoning the Hindrances -> Jhana -> Unbinding
DN 9 also shows that you require 1 perception, so absorption.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: How long to attain first jhana?

Post by Mr. Seek »

Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Nov 24, 2020 5:50 pm
Mr. Seek wrote: Tue Nov 24, 2020 5:49 pm I think it's all about the method. You can "meditate" for 80 years and still not get into jhana if your method is wrong. If anyone were to ask me about this stuff, I'd say just read the suttas and ponder with discernment, so that's what I'll advise you.

DN 2 gives a good summary of what you need to attain jhana.

Virtue -> Sense Restraint -> Mindfulness and Alertness -> Contentedness -> Abandoning the Hindrances -> Jhana -> Unbinding
DN 9 also shows that you require 1 perception, so absorption.
What do you mean? Can you elaborate / give references? Genuinely curious. DN 9 has some good bits in it, but...
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Re: How long to attain first jhana?

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Mr. Seek wrote: Tue Nov 24, 2020 5:54 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Nov 24, 2020 5:50 pm
Mr. Seek wrote: Tue Nov 24, 2020 5:49 pm I think it's all about the method. You can "meditate" for 80 years and still not get into jhana if your method is wrong. If anyone were to ask me about this stuff, I'd say just read the suttas and ponder with discernment, so that's what I'll advise you.

DN 2 gives a good summary of what you need to attain jhana.

Virtue -> Sense Restraint -> Mindfulness and Alertness -> Contentedness -> Abandoning the Hindrances -> Jhana -> Unbinding
DN 9 also shows that you require 1 perception, so absorption.
What do you mean? Can you elaborate / give references? Genuinely curious. DN 9 has some good bits in it, but...
Sure:
Quite withdrawn from sensual pleasures, withdrawn from unskillful mental qualities, the monk enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. His earlier perception of sensuality ceases, and on that occasion there is a perception of a refined truth of rapture & pleasure born of seclusion. On that occasion he is one who is percipient of a refined truth of rapture & pleasure born of seclusion. And thus it is that with training one perception arises and with training another perception ceases.

“Then, with the stilling of directed thoughts & evaluations, the monk enters & remains in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of composure, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation—internal assurance. His earlier perception of a refined truth of rapture & pleasure born of seclusion ceases, and on that occasion there is a perception of a refined truth of rapture & pleasure born of concentration. On that occasion he is one who is percipient of a refined truth of rapture & pleasure born of concentration. And thus it is that with training one perception arises and with training another perception ceases.
DN 9

As MN 128 shows, perceptions of diversity are a hindrance to Jhana. Jhana is of one perception, totally absorbed into the object of meditation which fills the entire perceptual field. Some object that the diversity of perception is only said to be overcome during entry into the sphere of infinite space etc, but this ignores the fact that to move from one Jhana to the next you need to leave it and review its drawbacks. Leaving the 4th Jhana diversity of perceptions return, then followed by entry into singular perception again only this time it’s of infinite space.
Last edited by Ceisiwr on Tue Nov 24, 2020 6:06 pm, edited 2 times in total.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: How long to attain first jhana?

Post by confusedlayman »

oatsandmilk wrote: Tue Nov 24, 2020 4:54 pm I have been meditating for about five years or little more. But I cannot say I have ever reached jhana. Only been able to feel peaceful and tranquil.

However on Reddit there are a few who reached first jhana in less than a month or even less than a week.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Meditation/com ... ain_jhana/

Is it because they had a purer mind? What role does purity of mind (by which I mean lack of Kleshas, the ten defilements listed in Abhidhamma) have to play?

:anjali:
do metta.. one who do metta is not destitute of jhana. if u can do metta even for one finger snap, surely u can attain jhana in this lifetime whenever u want... (don't commit 5 heinous crime)

do sleep with consciousness and when sleep paralysis happens then u radiate metta... boom u r in 1st jhana... focus on bliss without thinking and u in 2nd jhana.. now be in 2nd jhana absorbed and u will exit out of body and feel only mental bliss (3rd jhana) ... I don't know anything more than that ...

what exit out of body means? it means u will not perceive Piti but u will perceive sukha which is light weight and gives the feeling of zero weight
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
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Re: How long to attain first jhana?

Post by Mr. Seek »

Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Nov 24, 2020 6:02 pm
Mr. Seek wrote: Tue Nov 24, 2020 5:54 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Nov 24, 2020 5:50 pm

DN 9 also shows that you require 1 perception, so absorption.
What do you mean? Can you elaborate / give references? Genuinely curious. DN 9 has some good bits in it, but...
Sure:
Quite withdrawn from sensual pleasures, withdrawn from unskillful mental qualities, the monk enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. His earlier perception of sensuality ceases, and on that occasion there is a perception of a refined truth of rapture & pleasure born of seclusion. On that occasion he is one who is percipient of a refined truth of rapture & pleasure born of seclusion. And thus it is that with training one perception arises and with training another perception ceases.

“Then, with the stilling of directed thoughts & evaluations, the monk enters & remains in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of composure, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation—internal assurance. His earlier perception of a refined truth of rapture & pleasure born of seclusion ceases, and on that occasion there is a perception of a refined truth of rapture & pleasure born of concentration. On that occasion he is one who is percipient of a refined truth of rapture & pleasure born of concentration. And thus it is that with training one perception arises and with training another perception ceases.
DN 9

As MN 128 shows, perceptions of diversity are a hindrance to Jhana. Jhana is of one perception, totally absorbed into the object of meditation which fills the entire perceptual field. Some object that the diversity of perception is only said to be overcome during entry into the sphere of infinite space etc, but this ignores the fact that to move from one Jhana to the next you need to leave it and review its drawbacks. Leaving the 4th Jhana diversity of perceptions return, and then entry into the singular perception again only this time it’s of infinite space.
Alright, I see. I understand the bits about perceptions arising and ceasing... Maybe so long as one doesn't cling to certain perceptions, progress into the next stage is assured. That's how I interpret it. Haven't read DN 9 in a while... Maybe by letting go of sensual perceptions, one enters into jhanic ones. Don't know exactly; personal idea. Thanks for the feedback though!

AN 10.7 Sāriputta Sutta comes to mind.
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Re: How long to attain first jhana?

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Mr. Seek wrote: Tue Nov 24, 2020 6:12 pm
Alright, I see. I understand the bits about perceptions arising and ceasing... Maybe so long as one doesn't cling to certain perceptions, progress into the next stage is assured.
Sort of. You need to leave the Jhana in question, review it’s drawbacks then abandon that aspect in access concentration before entering into absorption again with a higher Jhana. So with the 1st Jhana you leave that, review that vitakka-vicāra are a drawback or disturbance, enter back into access concentration, abandon vitakka-vicāra and then enter into absorption as the 2nd Jhana and so on.
That's how I interpret it. Haven't read DN 9 in a while... Maybe by letting go of sensual perceptions, one enters into jhanic ones. Don't know exactly; personal idea. Thanks for the feedback though!

AN 10.7 Sāriputta Sutta comes to mind.
You’re welcome.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
Inedible
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Re: How long to attain first jhana?

Post by Inedible »

Is this forum about making sure we all reach first jhana and Stream Entry before we die? Because I'm hoping this is why we are here.
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Re: How long to attain first jhana?

Post by coconut »

Inedible wrote: Tue Nov 24, 2020 6:49 pm Is this forum about making sure we all reach first jhana and Stream Entry before we die? Because I'm hoping this is why we are here.
That's a good goal for a lay person. If you can attain the dhamma chakkhu (dhamma eye) which is the fruit of stream entry, then your human life was not wasted, I'd say.

To do that, you need to start with Right View, which the Samma Ditthi sutta can start you with.
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Re: How long to attain first jhana?

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Whose instructions have you followed? The Buddha mentions Jhana often - but does not really get into the mechanics of it.

Of course Buddhaghosa is to thank for his INTERPRETATION of the mechanics of jhana.

But what instructions do you follow? If you follow instructions which coincide with transcendental dependent origination, then just maybe you are on the right track.

If not, then you could be trying to collect wool by shaving a pig 🐷
Like the three marks of conditioned existence, this world in itself is filthy, hostile, and crowded
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Re: How long to attain first jhana?

Post by confusedlayman »

Pondera wrote: Wed Nov 25, 2020 3:29 am Whose instructions have you followed? The Buddha mentions Jhana often - but does not really get into the mechanics of it.

Of course Buddhaghosa is to thank for his INTERPRETATION of the mechanics of jhana.

But what instructions do you follow? If you follow instructions which coincide with transcendental dependent origination, then just maybe you are on the right track.

If not, then you could be trying to collect wool by shaving a pig 🐷
what is transcendental dependent origination? understanding DO with conventional reality and then apply emptiness even to that like nagarjuna? finally understand both way dynamically?
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
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Re: How long to attain first jhana?

Post by coconut »

Pondera wrote: Wed Nov 25, 2020 3:29 am Whose instructions have you followed? The Buddha mentions Jhana often - but does not really get into the mechanics of it.

Wrong View. The Buddha's teachings are complete. If you bothered to actually read and understand the nikayas you would not say such a thing.
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