How long to attain first jhana?

[confusedlayman]

DN 9 also shows that you require 1 perception, so absorption.

Though I don’t disagree with your view of the unitariness of perception in jhāna, I don’t think DN 9 offers very strong support for it. It really only works with Ajahn Thanissaro’s translation, which is based on the reading in the Royal Siamese Tipiṭaka where the two verbs happen to be in the singular:

Sikkhā ekā saññā uppajjati, sikkhā ekā saññā nirujjhati.

“With training, one perception arises and with training another perception ceases.”

Every other translator, however, has favoured the reading found in the Sinhalese edition (and in all editions of the Dīgha Commentary), where the two verbs are plural:

Sikkhā ekā saññā uppajjanti, sikkhā ekā saññā nirujjhanti.

“By training some ideas arise. By training others pass away.”

“With training, certain perceptions arise and certain perceptions cease.”

“Some perceptions arise through training, and some pass away through training.”

“Owing to the training certain perceptions occur; owing to the training certain perceptions cease.”

“Durch Übung entstehen gewisse bewusste Wahrnehmungen, durch Übung vergehen gewisse bewusste Wahrnehmungen.”

“Noen tanker oppstår som følge av trening, andre tanker stopper som følge av trening.”

Even if we grant that Thanissaro is right to favour the Royal Siamese reading, there’s still the question of whether he has translated it properly. Frankly I don’t think he has. The Pali word eka, outside of compounds, is much much more often used as a limiting adjective than as a numeral. For example, eko piḷhako would more probably mean “a certain dungbeetle” than “one dungbeetle”. Most translators would opt for the second rendering only if the context clearly indicated that eko was being used as a numeral (e.g., if the passage was a description of somebody counting dung-beetles).

Even the Thai translators, who like Thanissaro use the Royal Siamese edition, don’t render the passage in the way that he does. They translate ekā saññā as “a certain kind of perception” (สัญญาอย่างหนึ่ง), not as “one perception” (สัญญาหนึ่ง).

Ah thank you for the clarification Bhante. That is interesting. What are your thoughts on DN 15? My reading is that it states the following:

1st Jhana = 1 perception
2nd Jhana = 2 perceptions
3rd Jhana = 1 perception
4th Jhana = not mentioned

I’m slightly confused as to why it has the 2nd Jhana with 2 perceptions, but nevertheless this seems to support Jhana as being of one perception (bar the 2nd). What are your thoughts?

maybe perceive Piti and perceive sukha? however there can be only one perception at given time.

[Assaji]

As MN 128 shows, perceptions of diversity are a hindrance to Jhana.

Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi wrote in his footnote to these "perceptions of diversity":

1192 MA paraphrases: "While I was attending to a single type of form, longing arose. Thinking 'I will attend to different kinds of forms,' sometimes I directed my attention towards the heavenly world, sometimes toward the human world. As I attended to different kinds of forms, perception of diversity arose in me."

In a more precise sense, "perception of diversity" is abandoned only upon the attainment of the sphere of boundless space:

sabbaso rūpasaññānaṃ samatikkamā paṭighasaññānaṃ atthaṅgamā nānattasaññānaṃ amanasikārā 'ananto ākāso'ti ākāsānañcāyatanaṃ upasampajja viharatī

With the complete surmounting (samatikkamā) of perceptions of matter, with the disappearance of perceptions of resistance, with non-attention to perception of diversity, [aware of] ‘unbounded space,’ he enters upon and dwells in the base consisting of boundless space

There is a problem with your logic there. Nothing in that says that there are perceptions of diversity within the preceding 4 jhanas.

Maurice Walshe translates the underlined phrase as "And whatever sensations of lust that he previously had disappear".

Well that is true seeing as how the kāmaguṇa, i.e. 5 sense experience, has effectively temporarily shut down.

OK, I felt a duty to highlight the errors, but if you are not interested, I won't continue.

[Pondera]

I think your words speak for themselves, and they don't sound like the words of someone who has pleasant abiding nor given up identity view fetter, nor has Right View of the sadhamma..

They sound like the words of an outsider (bahiro).

“Outsider” to what? To this community?

And what makes you an “insider”? Two months membership and some bold assertions about your accomplishments as a student of Buddhism?

I’ve read the suttas, coconut. I’ve suffered in many different ways throughout my life - and all it has taught me is that “suffering is a vital condition for faith”.

I don’t want to take anything away from your devotion to Buddhism, so please don’t go about calling me an outsider in some attempt to take away what I hold dear about Buddhism.

Bottom line. We both are enthusiastic about Buddhism. I’m sure we could meet somewhere in the middle. Right speech in an online community is about sowing the seeds of concourse and agreeable discussion.

Let’s start there

Well for one I've been here since this forum was created (2010).

For two, it's sad that you've been here so long and still ignore the suttas.

Very sad, that you project your unfounded opinions on other people.

Three, if you had proper attention from the get go, you wouldn't delude yourself into thinking you've "nearly mastered transcedental dependent origination" in your words.

Maybe you mastered something, but it's not what the Buddha taught.

In fact proper attention is a factor of transcendental dependent origination. I have mastered that as it is “conditioned by sukha”. Which I have also mastered.

Four, suffering isn't a vital condition for faith, Right View is, which comes from having proper attention on the true dhamma (sadhamma).

Here is the embarrassing part where the arrogant one boasting to know so much about the suttas is shown to be completely wrong by the one accused of not paying attention to suttas. Here. Read this. It’s from the upanisa sutta:

"Thus, monks, ignorance is the supporting condition for kamma formations, kamma formations are the supporting condition for consciousness, consciousness is the supporting condition for mentality-materiality, mentality-materiality is the supporting condition for the sixfold sense base, the sixfold sense base is the supporting condition for contact, contact is the supporting condition for feeling, feeling is the supporting condition for craving, craving is the supporting condition for clinging, clinging is the supporting condition for existence, existence is the supporting condition for birth, birth is the supporting condition for suffering, suffering is the supporting condition for faith, faith is the supporting condition for joy, joy is the supporting condition for rapture, rapture is the supporting condition for tranquillity, tranquillity is the supporting condition for happiness, happiness is the supporting condition for concentration, concentration is the supporting condition for the knowledge and vision of things as they really are, the knowledge and vision of things as they really are is the supporting condition for disenchantment, disenchantment is the supporting condition for dispassion, dispassion is the supporting condition for emancipation, and emancipation is the supporting condition for the knowledge of the destruction (of the cankers).

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .bodh.html

You may have read the suttas, but you didn't apply and follow through with them. Now, if you should start from somewhere, you should know there is no "mastering trandecental dependent origination", there is only the noble eightfold path, and that if you "nearly mastered" the noble eightfold path odds are you would be a monk or imitating the monk lifestyle, you would not have a full time job, and probably not even posting on this forum, and you definitely not be writing PDFs on chakra meditation, and you would know that the Buddha Dhamma is perfect and complete.

What you would be doing, if you "nearly mastered' the path, is be sitting in Nirodha Samapatti most of the day, and you would find communication stressful, people stressful, jobs stressful, you would talk maybe once a week and only if you had to, otherwise you'd never speak.
And you'd definitely not be thinking about making youtube videos.

Right. Unfortunately everything you have just said is inconsistent with https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .bodh.html

So, start “somewhere” - read the Upanisa sutta and notice the overlap it shares with Jhana description.

Or, if you’re so inclined - you can explain what the upanisa sutta really means in the context of the 8FP.

[coconut]

“Outsider” to what? To this community?

And what makes you an “insider”? Two months membership and some bold assertions about your accomplishments as a student of Buddhism?

I’ve read the suttas, coconut. I’ve suffered in many different ways throughout my life - and all it has taught me is that “suffering is a vital condition for faith”.

I don’t want to take anything away from your devotion to Buddhism, so please don’t go about calling me an outsider in some attempt to take away what I hold dear about Buddhism.

Bottom line. We both are enthusiastic about Buddhism. I’m sure we could meet somewhere in the middle. Right speech in an online community is about sowing the seeds of concourse and agreeable discussion.

Let’s start there

Well for one I've been here since this forum was created (2010).

For two, it's sad that you've been here so long and still ignore the suttas.

Very sad, that you project your unfounded opinions on other people.

Three, if you had proper attention from the get go, you wouldn't delude yourself into thinking you've "nearly mastered transcedental dependent origination" in your words.

Maybe you mastered something, but it's not what the Buddha taught.

In fact proper attention is a factor of transcendental dependent origination. I have mastered that as it is “conditioned by sukha”. Which I have also mastered.

Four, suffering isn't a vital condition for faith, Right View is, which comes from having proper attention on the true dhamma (sadhamma).

Here is the embarrassing part where the arrogant one boasting to know so much about the suttas is shown to be completely wrong by the one accused of not paying attention to suttas. Here. Read this. It’s from the upanisa sutta:

"Thus, monks, ignorance is the supporting condition for kamma formations, kamma formations are the supporting condition for consciousness, consciousness is the supporting condition for mentality-materiality, mentality-materiality is the supporting condition for the sixfold sense base, the sixfold sense base is the supporting condition for contact, contact is the supporting condition for feeling, feeling is the supporting condition for craving, craving is the supporting condition for clinging, clinging is the supporting condition for existence, existence is the supporting condition for birth, birth is the supporting condition for suffering, suffering is the supporting condition for faith, faith is the supporting condition for joy, joy is the supporting condition for rapture, rapture is the supporting condition for tranquillity, tranquillity is the supporting condition for happiness, happiness is the supporting condition for concentration, concentration is the supporting condition for the knowledge and vision of things as they really are, the knowledge and vision of things as they really are is the supporting condition for disenchantment, disenchantment is the supporting condition for dispassion, dispassion is the supporting condition for emancipation, and emancipation is the supporting condition for the knowledge of the destruction (of the cankers).

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .bodh.html

You may have read the suttas, but you didn't apply and follow through with them. Now, if you should start from somewhere, you should know there is no "mastering trandecental dependent origination", there is only the noble eightfold path, and that if you "nearly mastered" the noble eightfold path odds are you would be a monk or imitating the monk lifestyle, you would not have a full time job, and probably not even posting on this forum, and you definitely not be writing PDFs on chakra meditation, and you would know that the Buddha Dhamma is perfect and complete.

What you would be doing, if you "nearly mastered' the path, is be sitting in Nirodha Samapatti most of the day, and you would find communication stressful, people stressful, jobs stressful, you would talk maybe once a week and only if you had to, otherwise you'd never speak.
And you'd definitely not be thinking about making youtube videos.

Right. Unfortunately everything you have just said is inconsistent with https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .bodh.html

So, start “somewhere” - read the Upanisa sutta and notice the overlap it shares with Jhana description.

Or, if you’re so inclined - you can explain what the upanisa sutta really means in the context of the 8FP.

Like everyone else with wrong view, you take things out of context and fill in the gaps with your non-sense instead of filling in that context from the suttas.

Right View is the vital condition for faith, not a supporting condition. Everyone suffers, but not everyone knows the escape. Hence one must truly know the four noble truths, which is what supermundane Right View is.

Suffering on its own isn't sufficient, as everyone suffers but that doesn't mean they're Ariyas, one must know the escape (The noble eightfold path) and what that entails. If you read the suttas, there are people who go up to the Buddha and say "We overcome the 5 hindrances, we attain jhanas, what's the difference between us and you?" and he tells them the difference.

Meaning, there are many spiritual people who claim to be Buddhists, like Daniel Ingram and Culadasa, they may have even heard the four noble truths, but they only understand it at a superficial level, they still have Wrong View, like yourself.

The Buddha explains why that is here:

"It's not the earth property that makes the true Dhamma disappear. It's not the water property... the fire property... the wind property that makes the true Dhamma disappear.[2] It's worthless people who arise right here [within the Sangha] who make the true Dhamma disappear. The true Dhamma doesn't disappear the way a boat sinks all at once.

"These five downward-leading qualities tend to the confusion and disappearance of the true Dhamma. Which five? There is the case where the monks, nuns, male lay followers, & female lay followers live without respect, without deference, for the Teacher. They live without respect, without deference, for the Dhamma... for the Sangha... for the Training... for concentration. These are the five downward-leading qualities that tend to the confusion and disappearance of the true Dhamma.

You lower the quality of the Sangha by making the true dhamma disappear because you try to lower the bar to your level of ignorance instead of raising yourself to the level of the true dhamma. You pollute the dhamma by mixing it with non-dhamma.

The Buddha said the dhamma is very subtle and hard to understand, do you truly think you have grasped the true dhamma that you have "Nearly Mastered the path"? Who do you think you're fooling? Only people who don't know better.

If you truly think you nearly mastered the path in your current state, then you have Wrong View and you're delusional, plain and simple.

As the Dhammapadda verse 311 says, the dhamma when wrongly grasped, can hurt you.

And MN 103

‘The venerable ones differ about the meaning and the phrasing. The venerable ones should know that it is for this reason that there is difference about the meaning and difference about the phrasing; let them not fall into a dispute.’ So what has been wrongly grasped should be borne in mind as wrongly grasped. Bearing in mind what has been wrongly grasped as wrongly grasped, what is Dhamma and what is Discipline should be expounded.

[confusedlayman]

There is a proverb or ancient saying... suffering leads to either noble search

[auto]

The reason is because my lifestyle wasn't as good as before, before I was a lot more stricter with diet and everything else, so I've fallen back.

This could be because you haven't reached physical body. Altered states remained altered, you can also repeat them, no knowledge gotten. When you would got the knowledge then the cause for the altered state vanishes. Nimitta arises because of greed and aversion and delusion.

[coconut]

The reason is because my lifestyle wasn't as good as before, before I was a lot more stricter with diet and everything else, so I've fallen back.

This could be because you haven't reached physical body. Altered states remained altered, you can also repeat them, no knowledge gotten. When you would got the knowledge then the cause for the altered state vanishes. Nimitta arises because of greed and aversion and delusion.

Nimitta just means sign, nothing more. Just like the sign of boiled water is steam. It has nothing to do with the 3 poisons, in and of itself. So to say "nimitta arises because of greed, delusion and aversion" is wrong, that's like saying ALL signs are signs of the 3 poisons, which is false.

Every hindrance and every awakening factor has its own signs (nimittas).

The signs of sensual desires is beauty (subha)

And what fuels the arising of sensual desire, or, when it has arisen, makes it increase and grow? There is the feature of beauty. Frequent improper attention to that fuels the arising of sensual desire, or, when it has arisen, makes it increase and grow.

The sign of the awakening factor of Samadhi is samatha (calm) nimitta, and abyagga (non-distraction) nimitta.

And what fuels the arising of the awakening factor of immersion, or, when it has arisen, fully develops it?

There are things that are the foundation of serenity and freedom from distraction. (Atthi, bhikkhave, samathanimittaṃ abyagganimittaṃ.)

Frequent proper attention to them fuels the arising of the awakening factor of immersion, or, when it has arisen, fully develops it.

Please study the suttas thoroughly so that you do not let your wrong views pollute the dhamma.

[auto]

The reason is because my lifestyle wasn't as good as before, before I was a lot more stricter with diet and everything else, so I've fallen back.

This could be because you haven't reached physical body. Altered states remained altered, you can also repeat them, no knowledge gotten. When you would got the knowledge then the cause for the altered state vanishes. Nimitta arises because of greed and aversion and delusion.

Nimitta just means sign, nothing more. Just like the sign of boiled water is steam. It has nothing to do with the 3 poisons, in and of itself. So to say "nimitta arises because of greed, delusion and aversion" is wrong, that's like saying ALL signs are signs of the 3 poisons, which is false.

Every hindrance and every awakening factor has its own signs (nimittas).

The signs of sensual desires is beauty (subha)

And what fuels the arising of sensual desire, or, when it has arisen, makes it increase and grow? There is the feature of beauty. Frequent improper attention to that fuels the arising of sensual desire, or, when it has arisen, makes it increase and grow.

Beauty when properly attended will make sensual desires go away. Don't afraid pleasure.

[coconut]

This could be because you haven't reached physical body. Altered states remained altered, you can also repeat them, no knowledge gotten. When you would got the knowledge then the cause for the altered state vanishes. Nimitta arises because of greed and aversion and delusion.

Nimitta just means sign, nothing more. Just like the sign of boiled water is steam. It has nothing to do with the 3 poisons, in and of itself. So to say "nimitta arises because of greed, delusion and aversion" is wrong, that's like saying ALL signs are signs of the 3 poisons, which is false.

Every hindrance and every awakening factor has its own signs (nimittas).

The signs of sensual desires is beauty (subha)

And what fuels the arising of sensual desire, or, when it has arisen, makes it increase and grow? There is the feature of beauty. Frequent improper attention to that fuels the arising of sensual desire, or, when it has arisen, makes it increase and grow.

Beauty when properly attended will make sensual desires go away. Don't afraid pleasure.

Beauty should not be attended to at all, instead Ugliness (asubha) is what should be attended to, to get rid of sensual desires.

[auto]

Nimitta just means sign, nothing more. Just like the sign of boiled water is steam. It has nothing to do with the 3 poisons, in and of itself. So to say "nimitta arises because of greed, delusion and aversion" is wrong, that's like saying ALL signs are signs of the 3 poisons, which is false.

Every hindrance and every awakening factor has its own signs (nimittas).

The signs of sensual desires is beauty (subha)

Beauty when properly attended will make sensual desires go away. Don't afraid pleasure.

Beauty should not be attended to at all, instead Ugliness (asubha) is what should be attended to, to get rid of sensual desires.

So according to you then the proper attention is when beauty is attended as ugliness?

[Sam Vara]

Beauty should not be attended to at all, instead Ugliness (asubha) is what should be attended to, to get rid of sensual desires.

Doesn't the sutta cited above mean that improper attention to the sign of the beautiful is to be avoided, rather than all attention is to be avoided? Or are you making a point about your own findings?

[auto]

Please study the suttas thoroughly so that you do not let your wrong views pollute the dhamma.

what about this, greed, hate, delusion are makers of the signs?

Greed, hate, and delusion are makers of signs.Rāgo kho, āvuso, nimittakaraṇo, doso nimittakaraṇo, moho nimittakaraṇo.
A mendicant who has ended the defilements has given these up, cut them off at the root, made them like a palm stump, and obliterated them, so they are unable to arise in the future.Te khīṇāsavassa bhikkhuno pahīnā ucchinnamūlā tālāvatthukatā anabhāvaṅkatā āyatiṃ anuppādadhammā.

The unshakable heart’s release is said to be the best kind of signless heart’s release.Yāvatā kho, āvuso, animittā cetovimuttiyo, akuppā tāsaṃ cetovimutti aggamakkhāyati.That unshakable heart’s release is empty of greed, hate, and delusion.Sā kho panākuppā cetovimutti suññā rāgena, suññā dosena, suññā mohena.

[coconut]

Beauty should not be attended to at all, instead Ugliness (asubha) is what should be attended to, to get rid of sensual desires.

Doesn't the sutta cited above mean that improper attention to the sign of the beautiful is to be avoided, rather than all attention is to be avoided? Or are you making a point about your own findings?

There's other suttas where the Buddha says if one looks at something beautiful then they should not look at the signs of the beauty, i.e. avoided. He even directly says one should not look at beautiful women in one of the suttas.

[coconut]

Please study the suttas thoroughly so that you do not let your wrong views pollute the dhamma.

what about this, greed, hate, delusion are makers of the signs?

Greed, hate, and delusion are makers of signs.Rāgo kho, āvuso, nimittakaraṇo, doso nimittakaraṇo, moho nimittakaraṇo.
A mendicant who has ended the defilements has given these up, cut them off at the root, made them like a palm stump, and obliterated them, so they are unable to arise in the future.Te khīṇāsavassa bhikkhuno pahīnā ucchinnamūlā tālāvatthukatā anabhāvaṅkatā āyatiṃ anuppādadhammā.

The unshakable heart’s release is said to be the best kind of signless heart’s release.Yāvatā kho, āvuso, animittā cetovimuttiyo, akuppā tāsaṃ cetovimutti aggamakkhāyati.That unshakable heart’s release is empty of greed, hate, and delusion.Sā kho panākuppā cetovimutti suññā rāgena, suññā dosena, suññā mohena.

Yeah, when you're an Arahant path attainer then your job is to work on signless concentration, but I'm not that, so ignoring the gradual training is wrong view.

[Sam Vara]

Beauty should not be attended to at all, instead Ugliness (asubha) is what should be attended to, to get rid of sensual desires.

Doesn't the sutta cited above mean that improper attention to the sign of the beautiful is to be avoided, rather than all attention is to be avoided? Or are you making a point about your own findings?

There's other suttas where the Buddha says if one looks at something beautiful then they should not look at the signs of the beauty, i.e. avoided. He even directly says one should not look at beautiful women in one of the suttas.

I'm thinking of SN 46.51. Which are the other ones to which you refer, and if they are at odds, how do you think we should deal with the disparity?