Bh. Nyanamoli on 1st jhana, cessation of speech and rebirth

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santa100
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Re: Bh. Nyanamoli on 1st jhana, cessation of speech and rebirth

Post by santa100 »

SDC wrote: Tue Dec 01, 2020 4:02 pm Image
Nice (unintentional) breakdancing though :tongue:
form
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Re: Bh. Nyanamoli on 1st jhana, cessation of speech and rebirth

Post by form »

SDC wrote: Tue Dec 01, 2020 4:02 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Dec 01, 2020 12:49 pm
SDC wrote: Wed Nov 25, 2020 3:57 pm
Perhaps SDC could interpret for us?
I've been unusually pressed for time in these last few weeks, but taking into consideration the very high development being discussed in this talk, even if I was more available to share my thoughts, I would only suggest repeated listening and contemplation. Chances are if something is not making sense, it needs more time to resonate. There are many ideas Ajahn NN presents that I cannot fully grasp, but each time I listen and think about it, the idea gathers more ground to grow. I think the suttas emphasize this often. For instance, the idea that the aggregates are not-mine and not-myself sounds very profound, but that idea needs to weigh heavily on the experience over and over and over before it gains any ground on the profoundly dominant, enduring assumption that they are mine and I am.

I think about ignorance as a frozen walkway, and the teaching as if it were rock salt - even though I am confident that the salt will melt the ice, it is going to take time for it to do its job. Yet I often find myself just like this guy:

Image

Perhaps I need a better analogy. :embarassed:
Same as getting inspirations or insights from reading the right suttas at the right time.
form
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Re: Bh. Nyanamoli on 1st jhana, cessation of speech and rebirth

Post by form »

Same like if one cannot swim and never touch water before, reading a swimming instruction book.
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Re: Bh. Nyanamoli on 1st jhana, cessation of speech and rebirth

Post by Alino »

If i understand well, Venerable Ajahn say that while you experiancing speach as anatta, as not me, not mine, not my self, as outside of "you", as external phenomena - is the first jhana.

In other words watch carefully while you are speaking to someone, while you are speaking - do you know what will be your next word? Do you know how your sentence will end? Do you know what exactly you will speaking about? - No... you just listen to yourself speaking, as the person to whom you are speaking is listening to you.

So how it can be you who speaks if you see clearly that you are actualy silent and that speaking don't require you to engage in it?

It's like riding the horse, you can choose the direction, but it not you that running, you are sitting calm...

That's how there is a story about an old respected Anagami who were to dying, who was questioned by his disciples about his attainments, and while explaining to them how he experiancing the information realised Arahantship by listening his own Dhamma Talk... Be cause he was listening to himself speaking to his disciples.

So if my understanding is good - being silent while speaking is the 1st jhana...
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lostitude
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Re: Bh. Nyanamoli on 1st jhana, cessation of speech and rebirth

Post by lostitude »

Alino wrote: Wed Dec 02, 2020 6:09 am If i understand well, Venerable Ajahn say that while you experiancing speach as anatta, as not me, not mine, not my self, as outside of "you", as external phenomena - is the first jhana.

In other words watch carefully while you are speaking to someone, while you are speaking - do you know what will be your next word? Do you know how your sentence will end? Do you know what exactly you will speaking about? - No... you just listen to yourself speaking, as the person to whom you are speaking is listening to you.
Funny, listening to the video, I understood the exact opposite. He seems to be criticizing precisely the tendency to perceive speech as being outside of "you", and describes it as a false assumption, and once you get rid of this false assumption, you get jhana. That’s what I understood (without comprehending it) at least.
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Re: Bh. Nyanamoli on 1st jhana, cessation of speech and rebirth

Post by Alino »

lostitude wrote: Wed Dec 02, 2020 7:12 pm
Alino wrote: Wed Dec 02, 2020 6:09 am If i understand well, Venerable Ajahn say that while you experiancing speach as anatta, as not me, not mine, not my self, as outside of "you", as external phenomena - is the first jhana.

In other words watch carefully while you are speaking to someone, while you are speaking - do you know what will be your next word? Do you know how your sentence will end? Do you know what exactly you will speaking about? - No... you just listen to yourself speaking, as the person to whom you are speaking is listening to you.
Funny, listening to the video, I understood the exact opposite. He seems to be criticizing precisely the tendency to perceive speech as being outside of "you", and describes it as a false assumption, and once you get rid of this false assumption, you get jhana. That’s what I understood (without comprehending it) at least.
Intresting :)

My supposition is based on his words where he speak about imperturbable state of mind, and where Vererable Bhikkhu who questions him say something like : So now you are not speaking?

And as jhana is related to wisdom and experiancing things as they are I supposed that's it's about pure imperturbable mind and anatta of speach...
We don't live Samsara, Samsara is living us...

"Form, feelings, perceptions, formations, consciousness - don't care about us, we don't exist for them"
rolling_boulder
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Re: Bh. Nyanamoli on 1st jhana, cessation of speech and rebirth

Post by rolling_boulder »

My impression of the Ven. Nyanamoli is that while he is clearly very intelligent and so on he needs to work on finding a presentation that is truly worthy of the Dhamma. It would be good to keep this type of disjointed discussion behind the closed doors of the monastery until some structured clarity can be found. Otherwise, why publish it? Surely the buddha dhamma is worthy of better than this.

I'm impressed by the sheer wit of this monk but he comes across to me as very harsh and arrogant to be honest, and highly attached to his (sometimes pretty dubious imo) reasonings, which are not neccesarily good qualities to emulate or signs of realization. Having a lot of views and opinions isn't the same thing as truly realizing any of them. Nor is being loud and talking over others. This monk seems to have great potential but a little humility would be nice.

To be honest, I don't find it inspiring, and I think in this day and age we have access to many other English speaking senior monks with far more experience and temperance.

My best wishes to the venerable and his hermitage however, of course, I wish no ill upon them, only growth, joy, progress and liberation.

Just my 2 cents and my humble opinion
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Re: Bh. Nyanamoli on 1st jhana, cessation of speech and rebirth

Post by lostitude »

rolling_boulder wrote: Wed Dec 09, 2020 3:42 pm My impression of the Ven. Nyanamoli is that while he is clearly very intelligent and so on he needs to work on finding a presentation that is truly worthy of the Dhamma. It would be good to keep this type of disjointed discussion behind the closed doors of the monastery until some structured clarity can be found. Otherwise, why publish it? Surely the buddha dhamma is worthy of better than this.
The monk facing him seems to have a pretty good understanding of what he is talking about. Maybe this is just one of those more advanced topics that beginners like myself are not even expected to grasp.

I'm impressed by the sheer wit of this monk but he comes across to me as very harsh and arrogant to be honest
Maybe it helps to remember that he was born and raised in a Slavic country. I’ve never been to Serbia but from my experience of Russians, what to a Westerner comes across as harsh and arrogant, is simply to them the normal way to communicate. It is sincere, unapologetic, to the point.
, and highly attached to his (sometimes pretty dubious imo) reasonings, which are not neccesarily good qualities to emulate or signs of realization.
I’ve never heard nor read any claim that Ven. Nyanamoli was an arahant or anything along those lines. I’m pretty sure many people enjoy following him precisely because he’s still treading the path. I think sometimes it is much more interesting to follow someone more advanced but not fully realized just yet, whom you can relate to and who can understand you, rather than someone fully realized who doesn’t even remember what it felt like to trip and fall, make mistakes, constantly correct one’s own misunderstandings, and so on.

Obviously I’m not saying you should like him, but I think your judgement doesn’t consider all the factors at play.
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Re: Bh. Nyanamoli on 1st jhana, cessation of speech and rebirth

Post by rolling_boulder »

lostitude wrote: Sun Dec 13, 2020 10:23 pm ...
I changed my mind, i like him now :tongue:
The world is swept away. It does not endure...
The world is without shelter, without protector...
The world is without ownership. One has to pass on, leaving everything behind...
The world is insufficient, insatiable, a slave to craving.
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mjaviem
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Re: Bh. Nyanamoli on 1st jhana, cessation of speech and rebirth

Post by mjaviem »

Could anyone point me to a Sutta on what the Buddha taught about conceiving (conceiving wrongly due to ignorance, I guess)? Misconceiving an external world beyond experience. Or that pleasure is external to desire or that speech is external to the thoughts.
rolling_boulder wrote: Fri May 21, 2021 3:50 am I changed my mind, i like him now :tongue:
What happened?
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Re: Bh. Nyanamoli on 1st jhana, cessation of speech and rebirth

Post by confusedlayman »

he is honest monk who explaines directly.. but some of his words he use has meanings which cant be understood by non native English speaker... however I follow him and benefit from his videos
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DooDoot
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Re: Bh. Nyanamoli on 1st jhana, cessation of speech and rebirth

Post by DooDoot »

confusedlayman wrote: Sat May 22, 2021 7:22 am he is honest monk who explaines directly..
he appears confused. is he the next monk u will cling to as god? :roll:
Last edited by DooDoot on Sat May 22, 2021 7:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Bh. Nyanamoli on 1st jhana, cessation of speech and rebirth

Post by confusedlayman »

DooDoot wrote: Sat May 22, 2021 7:25 am
confusedlayman wrote: Sat May 22, 2021 7:22 am he is honest monk who explaines directly..
he is confused
no he is not...
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
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DooDoot
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Re: Bh. Nyanamoli on 1st jhana, cessation of speech and rebirth

Post by DooDoot »

confusedlayman wrote: Sat May 22, 2021 7:26 am no he is not...
his ideas are refuted all the time.

you should post some of his ideas for discussion & shredding :jedi:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Re: Bh. Nyanamoli on 1st jhana, cessation of speech and rebirth

Post by confusedlayman »

DooDoot wrote: Sat May 22, 2021 7:27 am
confusedlayman wrote: Sat May 22, 2021 7:26 am no he is not...
his ideas are refuted all the time.

you should post some of his ideas for discussion & shredding :jedi:


what refuted? where? send link? is it refuted by senior monks or arhants or is it refuted by online forum users who cant maintain 8 precepts everyday?
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
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