What experiences Nirvana?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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cappuccino
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Re: What experiences Nirvana?

Post by cappuccino »

Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 11:16 pm The Jains argued for a changing eternal consciousness.
I do not know what they were saying
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Ceisiwr
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Re: What experiences Nirvana?

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Spiny Norman wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 11:13 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 10:59 pm
cappuccino wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 10:58 pm The proper interpretation of impermanence is similar


It’s not about blinking out of existence


It’s merely saying there is change or inconstancy
Therefore dukkha, not-self and not nibbana. So, you just acknowledged that nibbana isn’t any type of consciousness.
So Nibbana is an object of consciousness?
According to Sāvaka Buddhism, yes. According to some forms of Mahāyāna, no.
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
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Ceisiwr
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Re: What experiences Nirvana?

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cappuccino wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 11:18 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 11:16 pm The Jains argued for a changing eternal consciousness.
I do not know what they were saying
That the soul (the eternal consciousness substance) changes yet is eternal, and this changing soul floats off to nirvana at awakening. The Jains ridiculed the idea that the soul (the eternal consciousness substance) doesn’t change. In comparison, Brahmin ascetics said it does not change at all. The eternal consciousness in Jainism changed because it’s modified by the influx of kamma, and changes again upon being liberated.
Last edited by Ceisiwr on Wed Dec 07, 2022 11:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
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cappuccino
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Re: What experiences Nirvana?

Post by cappuccino »

There is no answer about the soul in Buddhism


There is no indication of annihilation either


There is a middle, subtle, difficult way
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Ceisiwr
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Re: What experiences Nirvana?

Post by Ceisiwr »

cappuccino wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 11:23 pm There is no answer about the soul in Buddhism


There is no indication of annihilation either


There is a middle, subtle, difficult way
Sure, it’s difficult. Emptiness is difficult. Still, Nibbana isn’t some kind of consciousness according to the Buddha. Venerable Ṭhānissaro, less so.
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
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Re: What experiences Nirvana?

Post by Coëmgenu »

The Sarvāstivādins are surprisingly Jain. They explain karma as "avijñāpti" rūpa, or "unpercieved" material. This invisible insensible material is part of the human body supposedly. The transformations of the avijñāptirūpa allow the being to trascend the hard pseudo-materialist determinism of tri-temporal realism.
Last edited by Coëmgenu on Wed Dec 07, 2022 11:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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cappuccino
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Re: What experiences Nirvana?

Post by cappuccino »

Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 11:24 pm Sure, it’s difficult. Emptiness is difficult. Still, Nibbana isn’t some kind of consciousness according to the Buddha. Venerable Ṭhānissaro, less so.
You attempt an extreme way
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Ceisiwr
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Re: What experiences Nirvana?

Post by Ceisiwr »

cappuccino wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 11:25 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 11:24 pm Sure, it’s difficult. Emptiness is difficult. Still, Nibbana isn’t some kind of consciousness according to the Buddha. Venerable Ṭhānissaro, less so.
You attempt an extreme way
Well, I’m not arguing for annihilation or eternalism, so how am I being extreme?
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
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Re: What experiences Nirvana?

Post by cappuccino »

Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 11:26 pm Well, I’m not arguing for annihilation or eternalism, so how am I being extreme?
You want annihilation without calling it such


As in there was nothing to begin with
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Re: What experiences Nirvana?

Post by Ceisiwr »

cappuccino wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 11:28 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 11:26 pm Well, I’m not arguing for annihilation or eternalism, so how am I being extreme?
You want annihilation without calling it such


As in there was nothing to begin with
My view is that which is dependently originated is impermanent, dukkha and not-self.
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
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cappuccino
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Re: What experiences Nirvana?

Post by cappuccino »

Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 11:30 pm My view is that which is dependently originated is impermanent, dukkha and not-self.
Nirvana is not originated


In a way it’s something to believe in
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Ceisiwr
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Re: What experiences Nirvana?

Post by Ceisiwr »

cappuccino wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 11:31 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 11:30 pm My view is that which is dependently originated is impermanent, dukkha and not-self.
Nirvana is not originated
Indeed. No arising, no ceasing, no coming, no going, no remaining still.
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
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cappuccino
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Re: What experiences Nirvana?

Post by cappuccino »

Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 11:32 pm Indeed. No arising, no ceasing, no coming, no going, no remaining still.
Nor is it nothingness


Nothingness even is a dimension
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Ceisiwr
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Re: What experiences Nirvana?

Post by Ceisiwr »

cappuccino wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 11:33 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 11:32 pm Indeed. No arising, no ceasing, no coming, no going, no remaining still.
Nor is it nothingness


Nothingness even is a dimension
Not that either, nor existing.
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
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cappuccino
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Re: What experiences Nirvana?

Post by cappuccino »

Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 11:34 pm Not that either, nor existing.
It’s not nothing
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