What experiences Nirvana?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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Ceisiwr
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Re: What experiences Nirvana?

Post by Ceisiwr »

cappuccino wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 11:35 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 11:34 pm Not that either, nor existing.
It’s not nothing
Correct. Nor is it something.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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cappuccino
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Re: What experiences Nirvana?

Post by cappuccino »

Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 11:39 pm Correct. Nor is it something.
No it’s some thing


Otherwise it would be no thing
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Coëmgenu
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Re: What experiences Nirvana?

Post by Coëmgenu »

The first extreme: "It is."
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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cappuccino
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Re: What experiences Nirvana?

Post by cappuccino »

Coëmgenu wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 11:41 pm The first extreme: "It is."
Enough…
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Re: What experiences Nirvana?

Post by Coëmgenu »

cappuccino wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 11:43 pmThe logic isn't verbatim.
Your logic is verboten, hardly verbatim.
Last edited by Coëmgenu on Wed Dec 07, 2022 11:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Ceisiwr
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Location: Wales

Re: What experiences Nirvana?

Post by Ceisiwr »

cappuccino wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 11:41 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 11:39 pm Correct. Nor is it something.
No it’s some thing


Otherwise it would be no thing
No arising, no ceasing. No coming, no going, no standing still. Not existence, not non-existence. Not existence and non-existence, not neither existence nor non-existence. Not Infinite Consciousness, Not Nothingness. Not here, not there, not in between the two.
Last edited by Ceisiwr on Wed Dec 07, 2022 11:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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cappuccino
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Re: What experiences Nirvana?

Post by cappuccino »

Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 11:44 pm Not here, not there, not in between
Nirvana Is Nirvana
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Coëmgenu
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Re: What experiences Nirvana?

Post by Coëmgenu »

cappuccino wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 11:45 pmNirvana Is Nirvana
"It is!"
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: What experiences Nirvana?

Post by Ceisiwr »

cappuccino wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 11:45 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 11:44 pm Not here, not there, not in between
Nirvana is Nirvana
And it’s not a thing, not space, not consciousness, not nothingness, not perception, not non-perception, not neither-perception-nor-non-perception, not form, not feeling, not intention.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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cappuccino
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Re: What experiences Nirvana?

Post by cappuccino »

Coëmgenu wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 11:46 pm
cappuccino wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 11:45 pmNirvana Is Nirvana
"It is!"
Right
riceandcashews
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Re: What experiences Nirvana?

Post by riceandcashews »

cappuccino wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 11:52 pm
Coëmgenu wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 11:46 pm
cappuccino wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 11:45 pmNirvana Is Nirvana
"It is!"
Right
From my perspective, the thing you seem to be missing cappuccino in this conversation is that consciousness is a fabrication. "Consciousness" is a series of sounds that arise either in your external sound-consciousness or your internal sound-consciousness. You're taking the word to have a real object or meaning beyond itself, but it is only an arising within consciousness itself. At a certain level you are fixated on consciousness as a reified entity instead of seeing beyond the thought of consciousness. Your understanding of the word consciousness, and your conception of a thing called consciousness or your consciousness or my consciousness are conceptions. They are mental fabrications. They are your mental activity in the form of thoughts and imagination arising in your consciousness.

That's why we can't say IS of consciousness, at least in a reified way. If you treat the idea of consciousness as a thing, you get stuck in conceptual proliferation about it, which takes you further from it. Said another way, consciousness isn't ever our thought of it.

I'm not sure if that's helpful but that's my way of approaching this. I actually agree with you and personally think it is helpful to describe the deathless as consciousness without feature or surface, but only if it is understood that this is ultimately only more conceptual elaboration meant to break the mind away from conceptualization in the first place.
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Coëmgenu
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Re: What experiences Nirvana?

Post by Coëmgenu »

cappuccino wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 11:52 pm
Coëmgenu wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 11:46 pm
cappuccino wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 11:45 pmNirvana Is Nirvana
"It is!"
Right
Nope.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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cappuccino
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Re: What experiences Nirvana?

Post by cappuccino »

Coëmgenu wrote: Thu Dec 08, 2022 12:19 am Nope.
Atheism approach to Nirvana

:coffee:
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Re: What experiences Nirvana?

Post by cappuccino »

riceandcashews wrote: Thu Dec 08, 2022 12:19 am I actually agree with you and personally think it is helpful to describe the deathless as consciousness without feature or surface
That’s funny because I gave up anyone agreeing with me
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Re: What experiences Nirvana?

Post by Coëmgenu »

cappuccino wrote: Thu Dec 08, 2022 12:21 am
Coëmgenu wrote: Thu Dec 08, 2022 12:19 am Nope.
Atheism approach to Nirvana

:coffee:
Atheism is in the eye of the cappuccino.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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