AN 4.163: how to interpret it?

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rhinoceroshorn
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AN 4.163: how to interpret it?

Post by rhinoceroshorn »

Aṅguttara Nikāya 4.163 wrote:"Monks, there are these four modes of practice. Which four? Painful practice with slow intuition, painful practice with quick intuition, pleasant practice with slow intuition, & pleasant practice with quick intuition.

"And which is painful practice with slow intuition? There is the case where a monk remains focused on unattractiveness with regard to the body, percipient of loathsomeness with regard to food, percipient of non-delight with regard to the entire world, (and) focused on inconstancy with regard to all fabrications. The perception of death is well established within him. He dwells in dependence on the five strengths of a learner — strength of conviction, strength of conscience, strength of concern, strength of persistence, & strength of discernment — but these five faculties of his — the faculty of conviction, the faculty of persistence, the faculty of mindfulness, the faculty of concentration, the faculty of discernment — appear weakly. Because of their weakness, he attains only slowly the immediacy [1] that leads to the ending of the effluents. This is called painful practice with slow intuition.

"And which is painful practice with quick intuition? There is the case where a monk remains focused on unattractiveness with regard to the body, percipient of loathsomeness with regard to food, percipient of non-delight with regard to the entire world, (and) focused on inconstancy with regard to all fabrications. The perception of death is well established within him. He dwells in dependence on these five strengths of a learner — strength of conviction, strength of conscience, strength of concern, strength of persistence, & strength of discernment — and these five faculties of his — the faculty of conviction, the faculty of persistence, the faculty of mindfulness, the faculty of concentration, the faculty of discernment — appear intensely. Because of their intensity, he attains quickly the immediacy that leads to the ending of the effluents. This is called painful practice with quick intuition.

"And which is pleasant practice with slow intuition? There is the case where a monk — quite secluded from sensuality, secluded from unskillful qualities — enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born of seclusion, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. With the stilling of directed thoughts & evaluations, he enters & remains in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of concentration, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation — internal assurance. With the fading of rapture he remains equanimous, mindful, & alert, and senses pleasure with the body. He enters & remains in the third jhana, of which the noble ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasant abiding.' With the abandoning of pleasure & pain — as with the earlier disappearance of joy & distress — he enters & remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain. He dwells in dependence on these five strengths of a learner — strength of conviction, strength of conscience, strength of concern, strength of persistence, & strength of discernment — but these five faculties of his — the faculty of conviction, the faculty of persistence, the faculty of mindfulness, the faculty of concentration, the faculty of discernment — appear weakly. Because of their weakness, he attains only slowly the immediacy that leads to the ending of the effluents. This is called pleasant practice with slow intuition. [2]

"And which is pleasant practice with quick intuition? There is the case where a monk — quite secluded from sensuality, secluded from unskillful qualities — enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born of seclusion, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. With the stilling of directed thoughts & evaluations, he enters & remains in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of concentration, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation — internal assurance. With the fading of rapture he remains equanimous, mindful, & alert, and senses pleasure with the body. He enters & remains in the third jhana, of which the noble ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasant abiding.' With the abandoning of pleasure & pain — as with the earlier disappearance of joy & distress — he enters & remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain. He dwells in dependence on these five strengths of a learner — strength of conviction, strength of conscience, strength of concern, strength of persistence, & strength of discernment — and these five faculties of his — the faculty of conviction, the faculty of persistence, the faculty of mindfulness, the faculty of concentration, the faculty of discernment — appear intensely. Because of their intensity, he attains quickly the immediacy that leads to the ending of the effluents. This is called pleasant practice with quick intuition.

"These are the four modes of practice."
IMPORTANT NOTE by Ajahn Ṭhānissaro:
Because the description of pleasant practice here contains the standard jhana formula, while the description of painful practice contains no mention of jhana, some writers have taken this as proof that there is an alternative path to awakening that does not involve the jhanas.

However, this reading ignores the description of how painful practice and pleasant practice can yield either slow or quick intuition. Intuition comes slowly when the five faculties are present in a weak form, and quickly when they are present in an intense form. Now, in both cases, the faculty of concentration — which is defined with the standard formula for the jhanas (SN 48.10) — has to be present for the ending of the effluents. Because this is true both for painful practice and for pleasant practice, both sorts of practice need jhana in order to succeed.

My reasoning:
If in the painful practice jhāna isn't cited but the faculty of concentration is (which entails.... Hmmm... Jhāna??) what is the difference between it and the pleasant practice? Asubha and non-asubha?
I'm struggling to understand the point of this sutta. It smells like later addition.
Eyes downcast, not footloose,
senses guarded, with protected mind,
not oozing — not burning — with lust,
wander alone
like a rhinoceros.
Sutta Nipāta 1.3 - Khaggavisana Sutta
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See, Ānanda! All those conditioned phenomena have passed, ceased, and perished. So impermanent are conditions, so unstable are conditions, so unreliable are conditions. This is quite enough for you to become disillusioned, dispassionate, and freed regarding all conditions.
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Re: AN 4.163: how to interpret it?

Post by cappuccino »

jhana means calmness


see Ramana Maharshi, for a modern example
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Re: AN 4.163: how to interpret it?

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rhinoceroshorn wrote:If in the painful practice jhāna isn't cited but the faculty of concentration is (which entails.... Hmmm... Jhāna??) what is the difference between it and the pleasant practice?
I'm struggling to understand the point of this sutta. It smells like later addition.
Word of advice, if a sutta doesn't seem to make sense at the moment, resist the urge to think of it as a later addition. Why? because that'd be too easy and everyone can do that. Spend more time investigate/contemplate before arriving at a conclusion. Back to the topic, this is where it's important to read suttas in groups because the previous ones can help clarify the subsequent one. In this case, AN 4.161 and AN 4.162 clarify AN 4.163. The difference between painful or pleasant meditation is, as per AN 4.162 conditioned by one's native personality traits.
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Re: AN 4.163: how to interpret it?

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You didn't read the sutta, I presume... :|
The sutta isn't about painful meditation. The first two items of the sutta are about painful practice (using asubha, without jhana). The thing is, in both cases the faculty of concentration is cited later, which entails jhana by definition.
So, what is the point? Asubha and non-asubha plus jhana?

Ps: I read in sequence. :)
Eyes downcast, not footloose,
senses guarded, with protected mind,
not oozing — not burning — with lust,
wander alone
like a rhinoceros.
Sutta Nipāta 1.3 - Khaggavisana Sutta
Image
See, Ānanda! All those conditioned phenomena have passed, ceased, and perished. So impermanent are conditions, so unstable are conditions, so unreliable are conditions. This is quite enough for you to become disillusioned, dispassionate, and freed regarding all conditions.
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Re: AN 4.163: how to interpret it?

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rhinoceroshorn wrote: Wed Dec 16, 2020 5:15 pm concentration is cited later, which entails jhana by definition.
concentration doesn't entail calm

:meditate:

since we may concentrate yet be very agitated
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Re: AN 4.163: how to interpret it?

Post by rhinoceroshorn »

cappuccino wrote: Wed Dec 16, 2020 5:19 pm
rhinoceroshorn wrote: Wed Dec 16, 2020 5:15 pm concentration is cited later, which entails jhana by definition.
concentration doesn't entail calm

:meditate:

since we may concentrate yet be very agitated
I put it in red and bolded for a reason:
rhinoceroshorn wrote: Wed Dec 16, 2020 4:28 pm IMPORTANT NOTE by Ajahn Ṭhānissaro:
Because the description of pleasant practice here contains the standard jhana formula, while the description of painful practice contains no mention of jhana, some writers have taken this as proof that there is an alternative path to awakening that does not involve the jhanas.

However, this reading ignores the description of how painful practice and pleasant practice can yield either slow or quick intuition. Intuition comes slowly when the five faculties are present in a weak form, and quickly when they are present in an intense form. Now, in both cases, the faculty of concentration — which is defined with the standard formula for the jhanas (SN 48.10) — has to be present for the ending of the effluents. Because this is true both for painful practice and for pleasant practice, both sorts of practice need jhana in order to succeed.
Eyes downcast, not footloose,
senses guarded, with protected mind,
not oozing — not burning — with lust,
wander alone
like a rhinoceros.
Sutta Nipāta 1.3 - Khaggavisana Sutta
Image
See, Ānanda! All those conditioned phenomena have passed, ceased, and perished. So impermanent are conditions, so unstable are conditions, so unreliable are conditions. This is quite enough for you to become disillusioned, dispassionate, and freed regarding all conditions.
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Re: AN 4.163: how to interpret it?

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rhinoceroshorn wrote: Wed Dec 16, 2020 5:23 pm I put it in red and bolded for a reason:
what is your point?
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Re: AN 4.163: how to interpret it?

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cappuccino wrote: Wed Dec 16, 2020 5:26 pm
rhinoceroshorn wrote: Wed Dec 16, 2020 5:23 pm I put it in red and bolded for a reason:
what is your point?
There is not much difference between the painful and the pleasant practice if both contain jhāna.
The sutta defines pleasant as containing jhāna, but implicitly says the "painful practice" also has jhānas. It seems inconsistent with itself.
Or, what seems more viable is that asubha entails a painful practice. It's the other way around.

I'll wait for a better interpretation of it.
Eyes downcast, not footloose,
senses guarded, with protected mind,
not oozing — not burning — with lust,
wander alone
like a rhinoceros.
Sutta Nipāta 1.3 - Khaggavisana Sutta
Image
See, Ānanda! All those conditioned phenomena have passed, ceased, and perished. So impermanent are conditions, so unstable are conditions, so unreliable are conditions. This is quite enough for you to become disillusioned, dispassionate, and freed regarding all conditions.
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Re: AN 4.163: how to interpret it?

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rhinoceroshorn wrote: Wed Dec 16, 2020 5:43 pm It seems inconsistent with itself.
unlikely
Last edited by cappuccino on Wed Dec 16, 2020 5:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: AN 4.163: how to interpret it?

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Re: AN 4.163: how to interpret it?

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Aṅguttara Nikāya is possibly the easiest Nikāya to fake a sutta due to its numerical model and lack of context. It's not unlikely.
Eyes downcast, not footloose,
senses guarded, with protected mind,
not oozing — not burning — with lust,
wander alone
like a rhinoceros.
Sutta Nipāta 1.3 - Khaggavisana Sutta
Image
See, Ānanda! All those conditioned phenomena have passed, ceased, and perished. So impermanent are conditions, so unstable are conditions, so unreliable are conditions. This is quite enough for you to become disillusioned, dispassionate, and freed regarding all conditions.
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Re: AN 4.163: how to interpret it?

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rhinoceroshorn wrote: Wed Dec 16, 2020 5:52 pm Aṅguttara Nikāya is possibly the easiest Nikāya to fake a sutta due to its numerical model and lack of context. It's not unlikely.
you're not able to determine
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Re: AN 4.163: how to interpret it?

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rhinoceroshorn wrote: Wed Dec 16, 2020 4:28 pm
My reasoning:
If in the painful practice jhāna isn't cited but the faculty of concentration is (which entails.... Hmmm... Jhāna??) what is the difference between it and the pleasant practice? Asubha and non-asubha?
I'm struggling to understand the point of this sutta. It smells like later addition.
The concentration with painful practice isn’t Jhana. The concentration with pleasant practice is Jhana. There are different types of concentration, as per the suttas and the commentaries.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: AN 4.163: how to interpret it?

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rhinoceroshorn wrote:You didn't read the sutta, I presume... :|
The sutta isn't about painful meditation. The first two items of the sutta are about painful practice (using asubha, without jhana). The thing is, in both cases the faculty of concentration is cited later, which entails jhana by definition.
So, what is the point? Asubha and non-asubha plus jhana?

Ps: I read in sequence. :)
Don't just inject your jhana assumption into the suttas. They are grouped into "#4 fifty - II. Modes of Practice" for a reason. And no, the suttas use "practice" as the common word from AN 4.161 through 4.163, there's no specification of jhana or not as you've assumed. If you did read in sequence, I'd suggest you read them again one more time.
AN 4.161 wrote:Bhikkhus, there are these four modes of practice. What four?
(1) Practice that is painful with sluggish direct knowledge; (2)
practice that is painful with quick direct knowledge; (3) practice
that is pleasant with sluggish direct knowledge; and (4) practice
that is pleasant with quick direct knowledge.850 These are the
four modes of practice...
AN 4.162 wrote:Bhikkhus, there are these four modes of practice. What four?
(1) Practice that is painful with sluggish direct knowledge; (2)
practice that is painful with quick direct knowledge; (3) practice
that is pleasant with sluggish direct knowledge; and (4) practice
that is pleasant with quick direct knowledge.850 These are the
four modes of practice...
AN 4.163 wrote:Bhikkhus, there are these four modes of practice. What four?
(1) Practice that is painful with sluggish direct knowledge; (2)
practice that is painful with quick direct knowledge; (3) practice
that is pleasant with sluggish direct knowledge; and (4) practice
that is pleasant with quick direct knowledge.850 These are the
four modes of practice...
Anyway, seems like you've already made up your mind about those suttas. As that Zen story goes, your cup of tea's already been full, and it's just poinless to keep pouring any new tea into it:
rhinoceroshorn wrote:Aṅguttara Nikāya is possibly the easiest Nikāya to fake a sutta due to its numerical model and lack of context. It's not unlikely.
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Re: AN 4.163: how to interpret it?

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rhinoceroshorn wrote: Wed Dec 16, 2020 4:28 pm
Aṅguttara Nikāya 4.163 wrote:"Monks, there are these four modes of practice. Which four? Painful practice with slow intuition, painful practice with quick intuition, pleasant practice with slow intuition, & pleasant practice with quick intuition.

"And which is painful practice with slow intuition? There is the case where a monk remains focused on unattractiveness with regard to the body, percipient of loathsomeness with regard to food, percipient of non-delight with regard to the entire world, (and) focused on inconstancy with regard to all fabrications. The perception of death is well established within him. He dwells in dependence on the five strengths of a learner — strength of conviction, strength of conscience, strength of concern, strength of persistence, & strength of discernment — but these five faculties of his — the faculty of conviction, the faculty of persistence, the faculty of mindfulness, the faculty of concentration, the faculty of discernment — appear weakly. Because of their weakness, he attains only slowly the immediacy [1] that leads to the ending of the effluents. This is called painful practice with slow intuition.

"And which is painful practice with quick intuition? There is the case where a monk remains focused on unattractiveness with regard to the body, percipient of loathsomeness with regard to food, percipient of non-delight with regard to the entire world, (and) focused on inconstancy with regard to all fabrications. The perception of death is well established within him. He dwells in dependence on these five strengths of a learner — strength of conviction, strength of conscience, strength of concern, strength of persistence, & strength of discernment — and these five faculties of his — the faculty of conviction, the faculty of persistence, the faculty of mindfulness, the faculty of concentration, the faculty of discernment — appear intensely. Because of their intensity, he attains quickly the immediacy that leads to the ending of the effluents. This is called painful practice with quick intuition.

"And which is pleasant practice with slow intuition? There is the case where a monk — quite secluded from sensuality, secluded from unskillful qualities — enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born of seclusion, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. With the stilling of directed thoughts & evaluations, he enters & remains in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of concentration, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation — internal assurance. With the fading of rapture he remains equanimous, mindful, & alert, and senses pleasure with the body. He enters & remains in the third jhana, of which the noble ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasant abiding.' With the abandoning of pleasure & pain — as with the earlier disappearance of joy & distress — he enters & remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain. He dwells in dependence on these five strengths of a learner — strength of conviction, strength of conscience, strength of concern, strength of persistence, & strength of discernment — but these five faculties of his — the faculty of conviction, the faculty of persistence, the faculty of mindfulness, the faculty of concentration, the faculty of discernment — appear weakly. Because of their weakness, he attains only slowly the immediacy that leads to the ending of the effluents. This is called pleasant practice with slow intuition. [2]

"And which is pleasant practice with quick intuition? There is the case where a monk — quite secluded from sensuality, secluded from unskillful qualities — enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born of seclusion, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. With the stilling of directed thoughts & evaluations, he enters & remains in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of concentration, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation — internal assurance. With the fading of rapture he remains equanimous, mindful, & alert, and senses pleasure with the body. He enters & remains in the third jhana, of which the noble ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasant abiding.' With the abandoning of pleasure & pain — as with the earlier disappearance of joy & distress — he enters & remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain. He dwells in dependence on these five strengths of a learner — strength of conviction, strength of conscience, strength of concern, strength of persistence, & strength of discernment — and these five faculties of his — the faculty of conviction, the faculty of persistence, the faculty of mindfulness, the faculty of concentration, the faculty of discernment — appear intensely. Because of their intensity, he attains quickly the immediacy that leads to the ending of the effluents. This is called pleasant practice with quick intuition.

"These are the four modes of practice."
IMPORTANT NOTE by Ajahn Ṭhānissaro:
Because the description of pleasant practice here contains the standard jhana formula, while the description of painful practice contains no mention of jhana, some writers have taken this as proof that there is an alternative path to awakening that does not involve the jhanas.

However, this reading ignores the description of how painful practice and pleasant practice can yield either slow or quick intuition. Intuition comes slowly when the five faculties are present in a weak form, and quickly when they are present in an intense form. Now, in both cases, the faculty of concentration — which is defined with the standard formula for the jhanas (SN 48.10) — has to be present for the ending of the effluents. Because this is true both for painful practice and for pleasant practice, both sorts of practice need jhana in order to succeed.

My reasoning:
If in the painful practice jhāna isn't cited but the faculty of concentration is (which entails.... Hmmm... Jhāna??) what is the difference between it and the pleasant practice? Asubha and non-asubha?
I'm struggling to understand the point of this sutta. It smells like later addition.
In whichever way the sotapanna(or sekha) practices, he will become an Arahant. Sometimes it will be a slow practice, which entails overall discomforts such as those which would accompany one who attends to the "asubha" aspect, and sometimes his practice entails overall comfortable abidings, such as those which would accompany one who attends to the "jhana" aspect.
Either way, there will come a point where he attains parinibbana.

Sotapannas are equal in knowledge but not strengths. The Dhamma can be understood while on a asubha or jhana practice path, but both have the same Right view. ( not all who become sekha are doing the exact same thing during their fruition of understanding: its like not all those who become doctors work in the same situation. some work in a war-torn area , whereas others work in peaceful areas, but both are doctors who have different strengths which are developing depending on circumstances.)

Will the slow sotapanna at some point for a brief or extended time, experience a comfortable abiding before parinibbana? Most likely, but it hardly matters since his experience, top to bottom, from the point of view of a putthujjana, is one of being free from suffering.
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