Where are everybody?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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retrofuturist
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Re: Where are everybody?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Akusala,
Akusala wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 6:05 am You are talking about people becoming less tolerant of different views and how the technology creates this "echo-chamber". But, then you just bashed other traditions, such as the Goenka method and Mahasi's meditation instructions and how they are not in accordance with the suttas. Though, you did not explicitly say it, presumably your understanding/practice is the correct one based on the suttas. Can you see the irony there? :shrug:
There is no irony, because you've blatantly misunderstood what tolerance entails, and presumably replaced it with something closer to acceptance.

I tolerate Burmese Vipassana Traditions. I do not "get triggered" or upset, or feel unsafe, or feel uncomfortable if people start talking about it. I do not try to get them "cancelled", banned, or shut down. I do not seek a "safe space" to hide from differing views. However, some people have become so accustomed to surrounding themselves exclusively with people who agree with them, such that they can no longer emotionally cope with being surrounded by different perspectives. That's what I'm describing. These are two different things altogether, and this emotional problem does not seem to afflict members who remain.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
Akusala
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Re: Where are everybody?

Post by Akusala »

but, I think that is precisely the issues here. Some people do not like to argue and get into a conflict. They just want to share information or get guidance on their practice. If some people then start to point out how their practices are not really what the Buddha originally taught. What do you really expect? A response saying 'oh yeah, I do not know you but I fully trust you. I have done it wrongly all this time. What do I do now?'

it is not necessarily people leave because they cannot stand criticism. it is probably they want to avoid polemic and perhaps decide to stay away from internet forums as it does not help their practice.

In Burma, these different practices can co-exist relatively peacefully - Goenka, Mahasi and Pak-Au. Sure, there may be occasional conflicts but they have been able to tolerate each other overall.

For you, it is okay to make an assertion that a particular practice is not what the Buddha originally taught and then at the same time thinking you are a tolerant person. Maybe our concept of tolerant is different, as you say.
Last edited by Akusala on Thu Aug 11, 2022 6:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Where are everybody?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
Akusala wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 6:37 am it is not necessarily people leave because they cannot stand criticism. it is probably they want to avoid polemic and perhaps decide to stay away from internet forums as it does not help their practice.
Sure, could be that too, but I think that factor has always been the way. I was just observing what had changed since 2012, per the OP's question.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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retrofuturist
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Re: Where are everybody?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Akusala,
Akusala wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 6:37 am For you, it is okay to make an assertion that a particular practice is not what the Buddha originally taught and then at the same time thinking you are a tolerant person. Maybe our concept of tolerant is different, as you say.
Per my earlier post, there's nothing intolerant about expecting us to trace teachings back to the discourses. The Buddha explicitly asked us to as his dying wish. If you or anyone else has a problem with someone following the Buddha instructions and fulfilling his dying wish, then that's on them, not me.
DN16 wrote:And there the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Now, bhikkhus, I shall make known to you the four great references. Listen and pay heed to my words." And those bhikkhus answered, saying:

"So be it, Lord."

Then the Blessed One said: "In this fashion, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu might speak: 'Face to face with the Blessed One, brethren, I have heard and learned thus: This is the Dhamma and the Discipline, the Master's Dispensation'; or: 'In an abode of such and such a name lives a community with elders and a chief. Face to face with that community, I have heard and learned thus: This is the Dhamma and the Discipline, the Master's Dispensation'; or: 'In an abode of such and such a name live several bhikkhus who are elders, who are learned, who have accomplished their course, who are preservers of the Dhamma, the Discipline, and the Summaries. Face to face with those elders, I have heard and learned thus: This is the Dhamma and the Discipline, the Master's Dispensation'; or: 'In an abode of such and such a name lives a single bhikkhu who is an elder, who is learned, who has accomplished his course, who is a preserver of the Dhamma, the Discipline, and the Summaries. Face to face with that elder, I have heard and learned thus: This is the Dhamma and the Discipline, the Master's Dispensation.'

"In such a case, bhikkhus, the declaration of such a bhikkhu is neither to be received with approval nor with scorn. Without approval and without scorn, but carefully studying the sentences word by word, one should trace them in the Discourses and verify them by the Discipline. If they are neither traceable in the Discourses nor verifiable by the Discipline, one must conclude thus: 'Certainly, this is not the Blessed One's utterance; this has been misunderstood by that bhikkhu — or by that community, or by those elders, or by that elder.' In that way, bhikkhus, you should reject it. But if the sentences concerned are traceable in the Discourses and verifiable by the Discipline, then one must conclude thus: 'Certainly, this is the Blessed One's utterance; this has been well understood by that bhikkhu — or by that community, or by those elders, or by that elder.' And in that way, bhikkhus, you may accept it on the first, second, third, or fourth reference. These, bhikkhus, are the four great references for you to preserve."
:buddha1:

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: Where are everybody?

Post by Akusala »

I do not see in the Sutta you quoted above that requires you to openly criticise other people's views and take it on you to correct other people's views. It says you need to determine yourself by way of the four references. You can then accept or reject accordingly for yourself.

The reality is that despite our best efforts, we come to different conclusions on different matters.

Let me give an example - I am sure you are aware of Bhikku Analayo's recent book - Early Buddhist Oral Tradition. He made a point in the book that the Buddha did not leave precise instructions on how to meditate. He then proceeded to conclude that it was intentional and the Buddha wanted us to find out ourselves what works for each one of us. Or something along this line. I do no think he asserted that Goenka or Mahasi was incorrect. In fact, he probably encouraged us to find out for ourselves.

Do I follow his view or your view?

I really do wish it was that simple - people just read the Suttas and they just fully understand it. In reality, it requires interpretations which in turn is influenced by our own subconscious biases, cultural background, etc.
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Re: Where are everybody?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Akusala,
Akusala wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 7:57 am I do not see in the Sutta you quoted above that requires you to openly criticise other people's views and take it on you to correct other people's views.
Who says I'm "openly criticizing"? I'm just not pretending they are what they're demonstrably not. Are you?
Akusala wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 7:57 am It says you need to determine yourself by way of the four references. You can then accept or reject accordingly for yourself.
Except the Sutta and Vinaya are set and collective, not personal. You don't have your own Sutta and Vinaya and then assess based on personal feelings.
Akusala wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 7:57 am The reality is that despite our best efforts, we come to different conclusions on different matters.
Agreed, and some people cannot cope with that reality.
Akusala wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 7:57 am Do I follow his view or your view?
That's up to you.
Akusala wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 7:57 amI really do wish it was that simple - people just read the Suttas and they just fully understand it. In reality, it requires interpretations which in turn is influenced by our own subconscious biases, cultural background, etc.
None of which changes the Sutta, and therefore none of which changes the Four Great References. None of which has anything to do with intolerance.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: Where are everybody?

Post by Akusala »

Paul,
I have made my case and I will leave it here. I can see this can go on for hours or even days and I believe I have other more productive things to do. And, so do you.
Cheers
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Re: Where are everybody?

Post by PeterC86 »

retrofuturist wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 2:56 am Greetings auto,
auto wrote: Sat Jan 02, 2021 1:31 am It seem 2012 was the peak when people were into spirituality. 2012 were a let down for many who hoped ascension. Does this nothing happening wearing people down or perhaps it was start of no age, dark passage? no handed down rapture nor body of light.

Forums are flattening. Aliens didn't come? sad life.
Aside from ascension and politics, there's a couple of significant inter-related trends in Buddhism in the West, that I see as having happened over that period of time.

Firstly, we've had the increasing availability of on-line Suttas (and even Agamas) in the English language. Bhikkhu Bodhi did a great job of translating Suttas, albeit mostly in hardcopy or electronic books, and more recently Sujato has done his own translations, and made them and many more available (and importantly, searchable!) on the Sutta Central site. For the first time, it's easy for people to find their own answers to what the Buddha taught, meaning they are no longer as reliant on others for access to the Dhamma - whether they be forumites, or teachers... and that's where the second point comes in.

In the past people had to learn from "teachers", whether that be in the form of "traditions" and/or "individuals". One of the key individuals to die during that period was Goenka. For whatever reason, him and his technique strongly shaped how a lot of the older generation of Western Buddhists practiced. Now he is dead, it seems his organisation is in free-fall, interest is waning, and the only time we hear of it here in 2022 is when thepea complains about their mask mandates.

Likewise, the broader "mindfulness" fad is over, so people either leave the scene, or in rare cases, strive to find what the Buddha himself taught, thanks to the increased availability of actual Suttas. If and when they bother learning what the Buddha actually taught, they learn that Goenka's techniques and heterodox interpretations of the Dhamma are nowhere to be seen, and neither are Mahasi's meditation instructions. A newer generation of monks such as Ajahn Nyanamoli Thero have introduced people to the idea that external "techniques" are unhelpful, not required, and in many cases counter-productive. Obviously, for those with stronger faith in the Vipassana movement than the Buddha-Dhamma itself, it's been a tough decade. I'm sure they tired of learning that "that's not in the Suttas" as other practitioners executed their duty of The Four Great References of the Mahaparinibbana which Bhikkhu Pesala often mentions. There is now no place to hide.

Also, such is the impermanence of life, the "hippies" who initially brought these interpretations and practices back to the West in the 60's and 70's are gradually dying too. It was folly to assume such splinter movements would be built upon in perpetuity. So paradoxically, we've got closer access to the Buddha's teaching than ever before in the West, but less "movements" and trends that encourage people to actually discover them.

But yes, as noted above, politics is a big one too, and the rise of technology and the ubiquity of smart phones has enabled people to create ever-disconnected echo-chambers of like-minded voices. The resultant intolerance of different views, and the rising divergence in political views, gave rise to conflict here some time ago, and we resolved that initially by exporting worldly and political matters across to the Dharma Wheel Engaged forum. Unfortunately, it's since closed down so when people insist upon shoehorning extraneous socio-political concepts into the Dhamma, we often refer them across to Sutta Central Discourse, who have a "Watercooler" section that remains open for such explorations.

Metta,
Paul. :)
Interesting read, thanks!
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Re: Where are everybody?

Post by mjaviem »

Agreed and I want to say that I really like this forum, even with its ups and downs on quantity and quality of active topics. Thanks everyone for making this discussion forum possible.
Namo Tassa Bhagavato Arahato Sammā Sambuddhassa
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Re: Where are everybody?

Post by Zom »

Interesting read, thanks!
Ye, a good sum-up 8-)
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Re: Where are everybody?

Post by DNS »

Good assessment by retro.

I'd just add that one of the fastest growing belief systems (maybe the fastest) is those with no religious affiliation; the agnostics and atheists. Religion (any religion), is in decline throughout the world.

I've noticed in my area that covid restrictions the past 2 years seems to have sped that up more, so googled it and sure enough, it has.
https://www.city-journal.org/religious- ... d-pandemic

Buddhism does have some appeal to agnostics and atheists, due to being non-theistic in general and open to investigation of its own concepts and beliefs, so I'm somewhat hopeful for buddhism, but not too much.

It's all anicca, as retro noted and the Buddha himself prophesized. Even the Dhamma dies out one day, but will be revived according to the tradition, by Metteyya.
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Re: Where are everybody?

Post by SarathW »

DNS wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 12:08 am Good assessment by retro.

I'd just add that one of the fastest growing belief systems (maybe the fastest) is those with no religious affiliation; the agnostics and atheists. Religion (any religion), is in decline throughout the world.

I've noticed in my area that covid restrictions the past 2 years seems to have sped that up more, so googled it and sure enough, it has.
https://www.city-journal.org/religious- ... d-pandemic

Buddhism does have some appeal to agnostics and atheists, due to being non-theistic in general and open to investigation of its own concepts and beliefs, so I'm somewhat hopeful for buddhism, but not too much.

It's all anicca, as retro noted and the Buddha himself prophesized. Even the Dhamma dies out one day, but will be revived according to the tradition, by Metteyya.
In fact, Arthur C. Clark a futuristic visionary, in one of his books, mentioned that Buddhism will be the only religion that will survive by the year 2050 and that scientist cannot hammer it down or destroy it.
:shrug:
viewtopic.php?t=16297
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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Re: Where are everybody?

Post by DNS »

SarathW wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 12:17 am
In fact, Arthur C. Clark a futuristic visionary, in one of his books, mentioned that Buddhism will be the only religion that will survive by the year 2050 and that scientist cannot hammer it down or destroy it.
:shrug:
viewtopic.php?t=16297
Well, as a buddhist, I hope Clark is right, but I doubt it. :tongue:
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Re: Where are everybody?

Post by bpallister »

i thought the Buddha said that the Dhamma would be forgotten at some point, lost to the world or something to that effect?
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Re: Where are everybody?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings David,

This brief comedy sketch nicely addresses what you've just said...



It seems "the new religion" is "The Science".

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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