You can hear sounds in the four jhanas, AN 10.72, and is 'Theravada' an oxymoron?

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Re: You can hear sounds in the four jhanas, AN 10.72, and is 'Theravada' an oxymoron?

Post by Ṭhānuttamo »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sun May 08, 2022 1:58 pm MN28 gives us a possible idea of how it can occur. If your attention is solely on one thing, say the nimitta, then the other senses won’t be experienced since attention is required to experience seeing, hearing etc.
Another good point! I wonder along those lines what they are meditating upon when hearing something; I mean under the premise that sound can be perceived during jhāna ... So, when mindfulness of breathing is practiced, for example, is the breath now observed as the object determining consciousness or the sound of the birds while sitting in the forest?
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Re: You can hear sounds in the four jhanas, AN 10.72, and is 'Theravada' an oxymoron?

Post by auto »

A. Bhikkhu wrote: Sun May 08, 2022 2:10 pm
auto wrote: Sun May 08, 2022 1:50 pm Nah, i don't buy the no sound in jhana scheme.
You are free to "buy" and choose according to your heart's content. :)
true but its kind of big difference if there is sound or not. For one party it will be easy, not much thinking needed.
I also say that the "I" + form/khandha seeking to get rebirth is necessary for attaining jhana, jhana is vipaka kamma you can experience here and now instead of actual rebirth unlike devas who need wait till their lifespawn ends. Vipaka kamma has to be experienced before awakening is possible.
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Re: You can hear sounds in the four jhanas, AN 10.72, and is 'Theravada' an oxymoron?

Post by frank k »

Dear Ven.,
I've done a thorough study, and collected every passage that I'm aware of tha deal with the topic of hearing sounds in samādhi.
There are several points you made that I have already given a different analysis concluding differently. So I won't repeat it here unless you bring up a specific case to dispute. I link the article here, and with direct link jumping to the part of the article with the 2 most illuminating sutta passages on the topic.
https://lucid24.org/sted/8aam/8samadhi/ ... l#flink-53

DN 21 Buddha hears carriage moving and is knocked out of ‘samadhi’, he's in a samadhi where thorns knocked him out of it. Also note that AN 10.72 thorns apply to all 4 jhānā (plural)!

KN Ud 3.3 500 monks and buddha in imperturbable samadhi can’t hear
Ananda tries to talk to Buddha, but he doesn't hear because unlike DN 21 (just 'samadhi' unqualified, but probably 4th jhāna since Buddha is always in suññata, which would be either animitta samadhi, any of the 4 jhānas typically).

Imperturbable samadhi means 4 formless attainments, for the case of 5 senses shut off. The other kind of imperturbable samadhi is the 4th jhāna that easily wields psychic powers and 6 higher knowledge.
First jhāna is never referred to as imperturbable samadhi.

MN 125 and the war elephant simile is one of the suttas that explain 4th jhāna imperturbability, where 5 senses are active and imperturbable means one is not overpowered by strong sensations of deathly pain, etc.

Two more sutta references in DN 16 where Buddha and his teacher can't hear sounds:
DN 16 Āḷāra Kālāma doesn’t hear 500 carts pass by while in santa vihara (peaceful dwelling) awake (jagara), percipient (saññi)
DN 16 Buddha can’t hear in thunderstorm while in santa vihara (peaceful dwelling/meditation) awake (jagara), percipient (saññi)

There, the term used is peaceful dwellings (santa vihara), not samādhi, not "first jhāna".
In other suttas, for example ones that differentiate an arahant that's freed by wisdom versus freed in mind (ceto vimutti), the one freed in mind has "peaceful" dwellings that are arūpa formless, as opposed to freed by wisdom they only have four jhānas.

So DN 16 peaceful is formless, formless imperturbable, not 5 sense active imperturbable of 4th jhāna.

One can hear sounds in all 4 jhānas. One can speak in first jhāna, one can use thinking and evaluation (vitakka and vicāra) in second jhāna. But if you do use V&V, then you drop out of 2nd jhāna. There's a very big difference between you can't do something versus you can but shouldn't because it disperses the force of samādhi.
https://lucid24.org/sted/8aam/8samadhi/ ... index.html
AN 9.41 and SN 40.1 are two of the clearest examples where it shows it happening.

All of this is tied to the same ideas from our other discussion on 5 senses being shut off, divorced from mano-vinnana.

Ajahn Brahmalis convoluted arguments just sounds like sophistry to me. I detailed all of my findings on AN 10.72 here:
https://lucid24.org/sted/8aam/8samadhi/ ... l#flink-73
(outline of my analysis)
jhānā (plural), means sound is a thorn for all 4 jhānas, not just the first
many monks are mentioned, so this is a common problem
loud piercing noises from carts, horses, people
4 formless attainments conspicuously absent from list of 10 thorns
but why is samādhi attainment 9 on the list?
Is the thorn an irritator, preventor, or destroyer?
AN 9.41 how V&V, pīti are thorns for 2nd and 3rd jhāna

metta,
frank

A. Bhikkhu wrote: Sun May 08, 2022 1:13 pm
frank k wrote: Wed Mar 31, 2021 5:03 pm You can hear sounds in the four jhanas, AN 10.72, and is 'Theravada' an oxymoron?
Dear Frank,
I would answer in the negative that the Theravāda is an oxymoron. The sutta you adduced actually lends credence to the fact that there is no sound perceived in the first jhāna ,nor discursive speech considering other contexts: "Speech has ceased for one who has entered the first jhāna (paṭhamaṃ jhānaṃ samāpannassa vācā niruddhā hoti; SN 36.11).

AN 10.72 clearly says that there is no sound in the first jhāna. Let me prove that point. It says, to begin with: "Sound is a thorn for the first jhāna" (paṭhamassa jhānassa saddo kaṇṭako). Considering that alone, one may come to the conclusion that this refers either to some time before the actual attainment, that is, that sound is an obstruction to the attainment of the first jhāna, or that sound can somehow influence the already attained jhāna state negatively.

That the latter option is what the sutta intends can be seen by the explanation it gives for the subsequent higher jhānas. To quote what it has to offer regarding the second: "Applied and sustained application [of mind] are a thorn for the second jhāna (dutiyassa jhānassa vitakkavicārā kaṇṭakā). The sutta thus establishes that it is speaking of phenomena not present in the jhānas it discusses since we know that applied and sustained application [of mind] (vitakkavicārā) are certainly not present in the second jhāna. Same with the phenomena it takes up for the rest of the four jhānas and the attainment of cessation. This has already been dealt with in the Kathāvatthu: https://suttacentral.net/kv18.8/en/aung ... ight=false

This is a reply of Ā. Brahmāli following a suggestion of Ā. Ṭhānissaro that the thorns under discussion merely make it difficult to enter or remain in the relevant state rather than being phenomena opposed to these and non-occurring therein:
He [Ā. Ṭhānissaro] states, “thus to say that directed thought and evaluation is a thorn for the second jhana means that these mental activities make it difficult to enter or remain in the second jhana”. But this is incorrect. Vitakka and vicāra (his “directed thought and evaluation”) are specifically said not to exist in the second jhāna. This means they have to be abandoned prior to entry, and if they re-arise after the entry, then one has already left the attainment. In other words, these two factors of the first jhāna cannot exist in the second jhāna. (AT’s actual wording is quite ambiguous, but regardless it is misleading.) When he then states, based on this flawed argument, that this means “noise is a thorn for the first jhana simply means that noise makes it difficult to enter or remain there,” he is drawing a conclusion that is unwarranted. In fact, basing himself on the precedent of the second jhāna, the only logical conclusion is that noise is incompatible with the first jhāna, and that this is the meaning of ‘thorn’, at least in this case. As so often, we should be careful with being too quick to dismiss the understanding of the commentaries.
In fact, the commentary to AN.72 seems to state that is a "thorn in the sense of destruction" (vijjhanaṭṭhena kaṇṭako). Given that both interpretations are cogent, I would opt to go with the additional evidence that is found in the commentary.
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Re: You can hear sounds in the four jhanas, AN 10.72, and is 'Theravada' an oxymoron?

Post by frank k »

A. Bhikkhu wrote: Sun May 08, 2022 2:19 pm ...In fact, the commentary to AN.72 seems to state that is a "thorn in the sense of destruction" (vijjhanaṭṭhena kaṇṭako). Given that both interpretations are cogent, I would opt to go with the additional evidence that is found in the commentary....
If you have a full translation of the relevant cmy please share.
Based on that line, 'thorn destroying', doesn't affect my analysis of AN 10.72.
As AN 9.41 shows, an impure jhāna where one has competent jhāna getting spiked by interruptions of impurity, can be seen as having blips of 'thorn destroying' it before quickly reattaining.
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Re: You can hear sounds in the four jhanas, AN 10.72, and is 'Theravada' an oxymoron?

Post by Ṭhānuttamo »

frank k wrote: Sun May 08, 2022 3:37 pm DN 21 Buddha hears carriage moving and is knocked out of ‘samadhi’, he's in a samadhi where thorns knocked him out of it.
Greetings in Dhamma, Frank!
I take up only a selection of what you referenced. That there is no sound in the formless attainments we can agree upon, I think, and there is no need to delve deeper into these, although the explanations given for them are in complete harmony with the fact that in the four jhānas sense experience is also suspended. Again for the fact any form whatsoever is overcome in the formless attainments, it is specifically mentioned in their context and not earlier.

The commentary to DN 21 states that "in a certain samādhi" (aññatarena samādhinā) refers to "fruition attainment" (phalasamāpatti) and also mentions the following: "'One who has attained [absorption] hears sound' should very surely not be said" (samāpanno saddaṃ suṇātī”ti no vata re vattabbe). It goes on to say, I paraphrase, that the Blessed One rose according to how he has marked out the time (yathāparicchinnakālavasena) to give Sakka no opportunity with reference to a specific time [of approaching] (okāsaṃ na karissāmī), specifically saying that in the middle of an attainment (antosamāpattiyaṃ; undoubtedly not referring to formless attainments in our context) even drums or lightning cannot be heard when blasting at the root of the ear (kaṇṇamūle dhamamānassa saṅkhayugaḷassāpi asanisannipātassāpi saddaṃ na suṇāti). So, according to his previous first consideration, he rose with the sound of Sakka's chariots. As Ā. Guṇaratana in his "Critical Analysis of the Jhanas" (p. 202) puts it: "Fruition attainment is made to last by a prior volition determining the time of the attainment [...]", which tallies with the commentarial explanation given above and the additional fact that has not been addressed so far that speech has ceased even during first jhāna as well, as mentioned earlier. I find MN 125 not saying anything in particular corroborating that in the initial jhānas the five sense are engaged.
frank k wrote: Sun May 08, 2022 3:37 pm One can hear sounds in all 4 jhānas. One can speak in first jhāna, one can use thinking and evaluation (vitakka and vicāra) in second jhāna.
If one does not consider the well-formulated explanations as given by the elders of the councils, one may come to conclusions of such nature as you outlined above. One would be fair if what is well spoken and coherent is acknowledged ...
frank k wrote: Sun May 08, 2022 3:37 pm Also note that AN 10.72 thorns apply to all 4 jhānā (plural)!
This was actually just said about sound, as mentioned by you also further down below. As an overarching concept then, we may assume that sound is also not present in all of them and certainly to be an obstruction? I have looked at AN 10.72 again, and I cannot see that the argument is true that says the things for which thorns have been explained can co-exist with the former. For example, the fourth case can be translated as "approaching (also 'conduct with', 'walking around with') women is a thorn to the holy life" (brahmacariyassa mātugāmūpacāro kaṇṭako). Meaning that at the moment one has approached or walks around with them, it is already blemished, by the mere act of just seeking, but maybe even more is implied. Same with the other ones. That the incidence that led the Buddha to teach about the thorns indicates that sound prevents entrance into jhānas doesn't negate the possibility that it is also taken up later then as a phenomena not experienced therein. It was just the prelude for given more depth, which is attested by many precedencies in other suttas, I believe.

Sure, such momentary lapses as described in the quote below are possible, as far as I know. Do you cede with your statement that the impurity as such does not occur in the relevant jhānas? With that you would be actually in line with the tradition (see below), which precisely says so.
frank k wrote: Sun May 08, 2022 3:37 pm As AN 9.41 shows, an impure jhāna where one has competent jhāna getting spiked by interruptions of impurity, can be seen as having blips of 'thorn destroying' it before quickly reattaining.
Now, you alluded to AN 9.41 and SN 40.1. The relevant portion of the former runs as follows:
[...] I entered and dwelled in the first jhāna. While I was dwelling in this state, perception and attention accompanied by sensuality occurred in me and I felt it as an affliction. Just as pain might arise for one feeling pleasure only to afflict him, so too, when perception and attention accompanied by sensuality occurred in me, I felt it as an affliction.
As was noted earlier, we can see from the simile with the one who is afflicted by pain, that the very occurrence of sensuality during his experience of the first jhāna ended it. Sensuality is not an issue in the first jhāna; it's done away with. That is so, from this sutta alone, since an experience of pain is in like manner also not to be understood as present for someone who experiences pleasure, an experience which is gone then.

As to SN 40.1, the commentary explicitly says that this refers to a state outside the jhānas. The root text is this, first of all, in Ā. Bodhi's translation:
Then, friends, secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unwholesome states, I entered and dwelt in the first jhāna…. While I dwelt therein perception and attention accompanied by sensuality assailed me (so khvāhaṃ, āvuso, vivicceva kāmehi vivicca akusalehi dhammehi savitakkaṃ savicāraṃ vivekajaṃ pītisukhaṃ paṭhamaṃ jhānaṃ upasampajja viharāmi. tassa mayhaṃ, āvuso, iminā vihārena viharato kāmasahagatā saññāmanasikārā samudācaranti).
Now the translation with "while I dwelt therein" is not the only way to render it and problematic since it potentially contradicts the commentary, although it could be harmonized. The genitive absolute could also be translated as "despite my abiding in this dwelling", which is understood by the commentary to refer to a time when he has risen out of the first jhāna: "For him, indeed, who had risen from the first jhāna, the five hindrances occurred as someone who lived having habitually engaged in (santato [translation of santato based upon the ṭīkā)" (tassa hi paṭhamajjhānavuṭṭhitassa pañca nīvaraṇāni santato upaṭṭhahiṃsu). That was also said to be conducive to his loss of the jhāna.

The question is, again, where do we place our trust in, our own explanations or the ones from learned and dedicated practitioners at the time of the Buddha and the three Buddhist Councils as a whole.
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Re: You can hear sounds in the four jhanas, AN 10.72, and is 'Theravada' an oxymoron?

Post by Ṭhānuttamo »

frank k wrote: Sun May 08, 2022 3:37 pm I've done a thorough study, and collected every passage that I'm aware of tha deal with the topic of hearing sounds in samādhi.
How would you make sense of above, then: "I wonder along those lines what they are meditating upon when hearing something; I mean under the premise that sound can be perceived during jhāna ... So, when mindfulness of breathing is practiced, for example, is the breath now observed as the object determining consciousness or the sound of the birds while sitting in the forest?"

Is there a passage anywhere that would suggest that consciousness can take two objects at the same time?
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Re: You can hear sounds in the four jhanas, AN 10.72, and is 'Theravada' an oxymoron?

Post by BrokenBones »

A. Bhikkhu wrote: Sun May 08, 2022 8:51 pm
frank k wrote: Sun May 08, 2022 3:37 pm I've done a thorough study, and collected every passage that I'm aware of tha deal with the topic of hearing sounds in samādhi.
How would you make sense of above, then: "I wonder along those lines what they are meditating upon when hearing something; I mean under the premise that sound can be perceived during jhāna ... So, when mindfulness of breathing is practiced, for example, is the breath now observed as the object determining consciousness or the sound of the birds while sitting in the forest?"

Is there a passage anywhere that would suggest that consciousness can take two objects at the same time?
The above only makes sense if you view jhana as a static/unchanging state with consciousness as a stream of uninterrupted awareness. The suttas seem to allow a lot of 'awareness's' in its descriptions.
I've likened jhana before to wearing a very thick coat, where someone gently prods you... you're aware of it but you really can't be bothered with it and don't give any attention to it... the deeper the jhana... the thicker the coat.

Some think that Buddha's jhana is similar to taking a nail and hammering your awareness down to a singularity... we all have different takes on what constitutes the jhana taught by the Buddha.
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Re: You can hear sounds in the four jhanas, AN 10.72, and is 'Theravada' an oxymoron?

Post by frank k »

MN 111, AN 9.36, AN 4.41
surely you don't believe observing vedana, sanna, vitakka, they are constant and unchanging?
A. Bhikkhu wrote: Sun May 08, 2022 8:51 pm
frank k wrote: Sun May 08, 2022 3:37 pm I've done a thorough study, and collected every passage that I'm aware of tha deal with the topic of hearing sounds in samādhi.
How would you make sense of above, then: "I wonder along those lines what they are meditating upon when hearing something; I mean under the premise that sound can be perceived during jhāna ... So, when mindfulness of breathing is practiced, for example, is the breath now observed as the object determining consciousness or the sound of the birds while sitting in the forest?"

Is there a passage anywhere that would suggest that consciousness can take two objects at the same time?
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Re: You can hear sounds in the four jhanas, AN 10.72, and is 'Theravada' an oxymoron?

Post by frank k »

There's no reason to believe (aññatarena samādhinā) would refer to a fruition attainment. What is a fruition attainment anyway, and if it was predetermined time to emerge from an unthornable state, then the carriage noise wouldn't be mentioned as the cause.
Is it not a strange coincidence that that 'certain samadhi' was interrupted by a thorny sound of carriages, just as AN 10.72 the scores of bhikkhus who went to the forest to escape the sounds of loud carriages?
Are you not curious why all 4 jhānas (plural) have sound as thorns, but not the 4 formless attainments?

As you know, with nij-jhāna, and jhāna, the buddha used those terms to refer to right jhānas, wrong jhānas, and learner jhānas with impurities. There was no Ajahn Brahm or commentator in the Buddha's time tisk tisking the bhikkhus saying, "no, that's not jhāna because the attainment was destroyed ...". Wrong jhāna was still called jhāna, impure jhāna was still called jhāna in AN 9.41.

Again, MN 111 and AN 9.36 make it crystal clear the 7 perception attainments are not frozen states with unchanging objects. Only the last 2 attainments are frozen states that require entering and emerging after a predetermined time. Those two suttas alone should be enough for you to see that LBT jhāna and EBT jhāna are entirely different systems.


A. Bhikkhu wrote: Sun May 08, 2022 6:47 pm
frank k wrote: Sun May 08, 2022 3:37 pm DN 21 Buddha hears carriage moving and is knocked out of ‘samadhi’, he's in a samadhi where thorns knocked him out of it.
Greetings in Dhamma, Frank!
I take up only a selection of what you referenced. That there is no sound in the formless attainments we can agree upon, I think, and there is no need to delve deeper into these, although the explanations given for them are in complete harmony with the fact that in the four jhānas sense experience is also suspended. Again for the fact any form whatsoever is overcome in the formless attainments, it is specifically mentioned in their context and not earlier.

The commentary to DN 21 states that "in a certain samādhi" (aññatarena samādhinā) refers to "fruition attainment" (phalasamāpatti) and also mentions the following: "'One who has attained [absorption] hears sound' should very surely not be said" (samāpanno saddaṃ suṇātī”ti no vata re vattabbe). It goes on to say, I paraphrase, that the Blessed One rose according to how he has marked out the time (yathāparicchinnakālavasena) to give Sakka no opportunity with reference to a specific time [of approaching] (okāsaṃ na karissāmī), specifically saying that in the middle of an attainment (antosamāpattiyaṃ; undoubtedly not referring to formless attainments in our context) even drums or lightning cannot be heard when blasting at the root of the ear (kaṇṇamūle dhamamānassa saṅkhayugaḷassāpi asanisannipātassāpi saddaṃ na suṇāti). So, according to his previous first consideration, he rose with the sound of Sakka's chariots. As Ā. Guṇaratana in his "Critical Analysis of the Jhanas" (p. 202) puts it: "Fruition attainment is made to last by a prior volition determining the time of the attainment [...]", which tallies with the commentarial explanation given above and the additional fact that has not been addressed so far that speech has ceased even during first jhāna as well, as mentioned earlier. I find MN 125 not saying anything in particular corroborating that in the initial jhānas the five sense are engaged.
frank k wrote: Sun May 08, 2022 3:37 pm One can hear sounds in all 4 jhānas. One can speak in first jhāna, one can use thinking and evaluation (vitakka and vicāra) in second jhāna.
If one does not consider the well-formulated explanations as given by the elders of the councils, one may come to conclusions of such nature as you outlined above. One would be fair if what is well spoken and coherent is acknowledged ...
frank k wrote: Sun May 08, 2022 3:37 pm Also note that AN 10.72 thorns apply to all 4 jhānā (plural)!
This was actually just said about sound, as mentioned by you also further down below. As an overarching concept then, we may assume that sound is also not present in all of them and certainly to be an obstruction? I have looked at AN 10.72 again, and I cannot see that the argument is true that says the things for which thorns have been explained can co-exist with the former. For example, the fourth case can be translated as "approaching (also 'conduct with', 'walking around with') women is a thorn to the holy life" (brahmacariyassa mātugāmūpacāro kaṇṭako). Meaning that at the moment one has approached or walks around with them, it is already blemished, by the mere act of just seeking, but maybe even more is implied. Same with the other ones. That the incidence that led the Buddha to teach about the thorns indicates that sound prevents entrance into jhānas doesn't negate the possibility that it is also taken up later then as a phenomena not experienced therein. It was just the prelude for given more depth, which is attested by many precedencies in other suttas, I believe.

Sure, such momentary lapses as described in the quote below are possible, as far as I know. Do you cede with your statement that the impurity as such does not occur in the relevant jhānas? With that you would be actually in line with the tradition (see below), which precisely says so.
frank k wrote: Sun May 08, 2022 3:37 pm As AN 9.41 shows, an impure jhāna where one has competent jhāna getting spiked by interruptions of impurity, can be seen as having blips of 'thorn destroying' it before quickly reattaining.
Now, you alluded to AN 9.41 and SN 40.1. The relevant portion of the former runs as follows:
[...] I entered and dwelled in the first jhāna. While I was dwelling in this state, perception and attention accompanied by sensuality occurred in me and I felt it as an affliction. Just as pain might arise for one feeling pleasure only to afflict him, so too, when perception and attention accompanied by sensuality occurred in me, I felt it as an affliction.
As was noted earlier, we can see from the simile with the one who is afflicted by pain, that the very occurrence of sensuality during his experience of the first jhāna ended it. Sensuality is not an issue in the first jhāna; it's done away with. That is so, from this sutta alone, since an experience of pain is in like manner also not to be understood as present for someone who experiences pleasure, an experience which is gone then.

As to SN 40.1, the commentary explicitly says that this refers to a state outside the jhānas. The root text is this, first of all, in Ā. Bodhi's translation:
Then, friends, secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unwholesome states, I entered and dwelt in the first jhāna…. While I dwelt therein perception and attention accompanied by sensuality assailed me (so khvāhaṃ, āvuso, vivicceva kāmehi vivicca akusalehi dhammehi savitakkaṃ savicāraṃ vivekajaṃ pītisukhaṃ paṭhamaṃ jhānaṃ upasampajja viharāmi. tassa mayhaṃ, āvuso, iminā vihārena viharato kāmasahagatā saññāmanasikārā samudācaranti).
Now the translation with "while I dwelt therein" is not the only way to render it and problematic since it potentially contradicts the commentary, although it could be harmonized. The genitive absolute could also be translated as "despite my abiding in this dwelling", which is understood by the commentary to refer to a time when he has risen out of the first jhāna: "For him, indeed, who had risen from the first jhāna, the five hindrances occurred as someone who lived having habitually engaged in (santato [translation of santato based upon the ṭīkā)" (tassa hi paṭhamajjhānavuṭṭhitassa pañca nīvaraṇāni santato upaṭṭhahiṃsu). That was also said to be conducive to his loss of the jhāna.

The question is, again, where do we place our trust in, our own explanations or the ones from learned and dedicated practitioners at the time of the Buddha and the three Buddhist Councils as a whole.
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Re: You can hear sounds in the four jhanas, AN 10.72, and is 'Theravada' an oxymoron?

Post by frank k »

A. Bhikkhu wrote: Sun May 08, 2022 8:51 pm ...The question is, again, where do we place our trust in, our own explanations or the ones from learned and dedicated practitioners at the time of the Buddha and the three Buddhist Councils as a whole....
They aren't just one single person making all the commentaries. Some make sense, some are completely out there.
Do you believe Jataka tales are real?
That in a previous life the Buddha was a rabbit, devadatta was a hunter, ananda was a monkey, the buddha sacrificed his life again and again to the hunter out of compassion, and because of the merit of that, the moon that was made out of green cheese had sculpted into the landscape the image a rabbit to commemorate the Buddha's heroic compassion? (My paraphrase of one of the jataka tales, surely the details are inaccurate).

Do you really believe Angulimala killed 1000 people according the commentaries, and could still become an arahant in the very same life?

Do you really believe the commentary for SN 54 the bhikkhus committing suicide was not by themselves, but a hired mercenary, and the Buddha in his omniscience somehow didn't intervene?

I place my trust in AN 4.180 and the suttas and commentary (ancient and modern) that don't violate that.
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Re: You can hear sounds in the four jhanas, AN 10.72, and is 'Theravada' an oxymoron?

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(delete, redundant)
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Re: You can hear sounds in the four jhanas, AN 10.72, and is 'Theravada' an oxymoron?

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A. Bhikkhu wrote: Sun May 08, 2022 6:47 pm ... regarding MN 125
In my version of MN 125, I fixed a problem I found when comparing it with the Agama parallel.
https://lucid24.org/mn/mn125/index.html#tophead

What happened was when Theravada version of the sutta looks like they tried to normalize the gradual training to culminate in higher knowledges as with most of the other suttas. But in the process of doing that, they lost possages where the monk action corresponds with an elephant action.
So I reinserted the corresponding elephant part for each monk action, and it makes it much clearer what imperturbability means for the 4 jhānas (as opposed to imperturbable formless attainments).

Lots of detailed explanation of what I found in MN 125 here:
http://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/20 ... 125_3.html

Another important occurence in MN 125 (I wonder if the commentary has anything to say about this), is the equivalence made between 1st jhāna and satipatthāna.
So if first jhāna can have changing objects to observe, is it so hard to imagine the other 3 jhānas can as well?
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Re: You can hear sounds in the four jhanas, AN 10.72, and is 'Theravada' an oxymoron?

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That's my experience as well, the deeper the samatha in the 4 jhānas, theres a continuum of the body getting a stronger buffer that resists the magnitude of sensory impact, but body consciousness has not disappeared. There's also a subjective sense that parts of the body start fading out, like your computer going into sleep mode where it's partially asleep, but not completely, and can be called back into action on a moment's notice if needed.
BrokenBones wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 1:49 am
A. Bhikkhu wrote: Sun May 08, 2022 8:51 pm
frank k wrote: Sun May 08, 2022 3:37 pm I've done a thorough study, and collected every passage that I'm aware of tha deal with the topic of hearing sounds in samādhi.
How would you make sense of above, then: "I wonder along those lines what they are meditating upon when hearing something; I mean under the premise that sound can be perceived during jhāna ... So, when mindfulness of breathing is practiced, for example, is the breath now observed as the object determining consciousness or the sound of the birds while sitting in the forest?"

Is there a passage anywhere that would suggest that consciousness can take two objects at the same time?
The above only makes sense if you view jhana as a static/unchanging state with consciousness as a stream of uninterrupted awareness. The suttas seem to allow a lot of 'awareness's' in its descriptions.
I've likened jhana before to wearing a very thick coat, where someone gently prods you... you're aware of it but you really can't be bothered with it and don't give any attention to it... the deeper the jhana... the thicker the coat.

Some think that Buddha's jhana is similar to taking a nail and hammering your awareness down to a singularity... we all have different takes on what constitutes the jhana taught by the Buddha.
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Re: You can hear sounds in the four jhanas, AN 10.72, and is 'Theravada' an oxymoron?

Post by Ṭhānuttamo »

frank k wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 11:40 am They aren't just one single person making all the commentaries. Some make sense, some are completely out there.
Do you believe Jataka tales are real?
That in a previous life the Buddha was a rabbit, devadatta was a hunter, ananda was a monkey, the buddha sacrificed his life again and again to the hunter out of compassion, and because of the merit of that, the moon that was made out of green cheese had sculpted into the landscape the image a rabbit to commemorate the Buddha's heroic compassion? (My paraphrase of one of the jataka tales, surely the details are inaccurate).
Do you really believe Angulimala killed 1000 people according the commentaries, and could still become an arahant in the very same life?
Do you really believe the commentary for SN 54 the bhikkhus committing suicide was not by themselves, but a hired mercenary, and the Buddha in his omniscience somehow didn't intervene?
I place my trust in AN 4.180 and the suttas and commentary (ancient and modern) that don't violate that.
Dear Frank,
I'll just address some specific questions you posed. To discuss the topic on jhāna is just a lost cause; you won't change your mind, and I don't see much that would change mine. I find it just not fair that you either deliberately or inadvertently don't grant that the commentaries provide in the very least an equally cogent account on how to understand jhāna. That indicates to me, that some bias remains with you that clouds seeing alternatives. I believe, the commentaries provide a better perspective on the matter since they, on the most fundamental level, consist ancient evidence, not just some opinion. But let's see what the future will bring.
frank k wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 11:40 am They aren't just one single person making all the commentaries.
Right, they were, at least the bulk of it, likely composed during the first Three Buddhist Councils.
frank k wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 11:40 am Do you believe Jataka tales are real?
By and large, I don't think they reflect reality.
frank k wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 11:40 am Do you really believe Angulimala killed 1000 people according the commentaries, and could still become an arahant in the very same life?
I do. Why not? Maybe the number is not an exact 1,000, but generally, I don't see why that should preclude someone from attaining enlightenment per se. Sure, it is highly antagonistic to progress on the path and its realization, but I don't think the obstacle is unsurmountable, especially with the direct help of the Buddha.
frank k wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 11:40 am Do you really believe the commentary for SN 54 the bhikkhus committing suicide was not by themselves, but a hired mercenary, and the Buddha in his omniscience somehow didn't intervene?
Can you elaborate on this one? I actually also don't believe in the cosmology as presented in the commentaries. I tried from every angle; it is off, as far as I can see. However, that doesn't really affect that the commentaries provide an avenue to access the views of the early and earliest Buddhist communities. They of course contain some material even later than the Third Buddhist Council, perhaps these inconsistencies stem from that time period. I don't know.
frank k wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 11:40 am I place my trust in AN 4.180 and the suttas and commentary (ancient and modern) that don't violate that.
Same goes for me. I just don't concur, on a reasonable basis, with the choice of books to form the canon of buddhavacana as posited by modern and ancient Suttantikas. I guess you know about what the commentary to this sutta has to say of what constitutes suttanta in this context? I think you can imagine that this even includes the Abhidhammapiṭaka and works of disciples, such as Ā. Sāriputta's Niddesa? There is surely evidence that the prevalent classification of the Tipiṭaka is not the only one possible, with the Abhidhammpiṭaka being included in the Khuddakanikāya at times (Dictionary of Pāli Proper Names, s.v. "Khuddakanikāya"):
According to another classification the whole of the Vinaya Pitaka and the Abhidhamma Pitaka and all the teachings of the Buddha, not included in the remaining four Nikayas, are regarded as forming the Khuddaka Nikaya (DA.i.23; Sp.i.27). The Dighabhanakas refused to accept the authenticity of the Khuddaka Patha, Cariyapitaka, and the Apadana, and included the other books as part of the Abhidhamma Pitaka. The Majjhimabhanakas did not accept the Khuddaka Patha but acknowledged the rest, and included them in the Sutta Pitaka (DA.i.15).
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Re: You can hear sounds in the four jhanas, AN 10.72, and is 'Theravada' an oxymoron?

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A. Bhikkhu wrote: Thu May 12, 2022 10:39 am ... I find it just not fair that you either deliberately or inadvertently don't grant that the commentaries provide in the very least an equally cogent account on how to understand jhāna. That indicates to me, that some bias remains with you that clouds seeing alternatives...
Dear Bhante,

You address a number of interesting points that merit their own discussion, perhaps at a later time, but I just want to address the most important one.
I do have a bias, but one that doesn't work against me. I'm biased in wanting to follow Buddha Gotama's authentic instructions. Everything we have inherited from the ancient sanghas is hear say, unconfirmed. So I'm open to any new evidence and will change my mind instantly if evidence is compelling. Ultimately, it's not even Buddha Gotama I'm loyal to, the only allegiance I have is to truth.

If someone could show compelling evidence that what the Koran teaches actually accords with the natural laws of reality, the truth, and Buddha got it wrong, I'd renounce Buddhism and become a Muslim tomorrow.

So that's my bias and I openly admit it.

I admit that commentaries provide an alternative account, but despite objectively and giving it fair review, I don't find the commentaries (in their entirety) equally cogent. There are inconsistencies, contradictions. They're incoherent (in their entirety).

Individually, some of the commentary is coherent with a sensible reading of the EBT using a consistent dictionary.
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