Meditation and Cannabis

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Meditation, e.g. meditation postures, developing a regular sitting practice, skillfully relating to difficulties and hindrances, etc.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Ajahn Pannobhasa is disrobing

Post by Ceisiwr »

Cause_and_Effect wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 4:41 am
As usual you are spouting based on theory and book knowledge only.
While I can't see a justification for use of Cannabis, in small doses it would not necessarily muddle mindfulness. The state itself would not be inclined to increase sensory gratification.
The mindfulness and sense restraint is already muddled if you have taken cannabis, alcohol or anything else even in small doses.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Ajahn Pannobhasa is disrobing

Post by Cause_and_Effect »

Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 6:43 am
Cause_and_Effect wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 4:41 am
As usual you are spouting based on theory and book knowledge only.
While I can't see a justification for use of Cannabis, in small doses it would not necessarily muddle mindfulness. The state itself would not be inclined to increase sensory gratification.
The mindfulness and sense restraint is already muddled if you have taken cannabis, alcohol or anything else even in small doses.
It's not so simple in practice to group them all together.
Opium is an intoxicant yet no one would refuse the opiate effect as a painkiller for medical procedures.

The fifth precept specifically covers alcohol, but by extension any intoxicant that leads to muddle mindedness. If an individual is using a substance purposefully and in limited quantities as an aid to meditation they should be able to judge their experience as to the effects.

Spending the day watching television or playing computer games is likewise not covered by the precepts but is probably more detrimental to subsequent meditation than using a very small amount of a substance deliberately in the context of meditation for some people, although I generally wouldn't recommend it.
"Therein monks, that Dimension should be known wherein the eye ceases and the perception of forms fades away...the ear... the nose...the tongue... the body ceases and the perception of touch fades away...

That Dimension should be known wherein mentality ceases and the perception of mind-objects fades away.
That Dimension should be known; that Dimension should be known."


(S. IV. 98) - The Dimension beyond the All
Spiny Norman
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Re: Ajahn Pannobhasa is disrobing

Post by Spiny Norman »

Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 6:43 am
Cause_and_Effect wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 4:41 am
As usual you are spouting based on theory and book knowledge only.
While I can't see a justification for use of Cannabis, in small doses it would not necessarily muddle mindfulness. The state itself would not be inclined to increase sensory gratification.
The mindfulness and sense restraint is already muddled if you have taken cannabis, alcohol or anything else even in small doses.
Indeed. It is simpler to abstain completely.
Buddha save me from new-agers!
Dweller
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Re: Meditation and Cannabis

Post by Dweller »

Cannabis can be even worse than alcohol in small doses when it comes to mindfulness, even if alcohol has the potential to be overall much more damaging.

I mean, small doses in terms of smoking a joint vs. drinking a beer.
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Dhamma Chameleon
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Re: Meditation and Cannabis

Post by Dhamma Chameleon »

Dweller wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 10:21 am Cannabis can be even worse than alcohol in small doses when it comes to mindfulness, even if alcohol has the potential to be overall much more damaging.

I mean, small doses in terms of smoking a joint vs. drinking a beer.
Yeah, even a little bit of cannabis clouds the mind immediately. Like a blanket of fuzziness. In my experience with alcohol I can still be very clear (there are limits of course :lol: ), but discernment eventually goes leading to heedlessness. With cannabis there is no clarity, so the discernment is unreliable from the start. But there's often not enough energy for heedlessness, so in that respect it's safer than alcohol.
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Re: Meditation and Cannabis

Post by Cause_and_Effect »

Dhamma Chameleon wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 11:21 am
Dweller wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 10:21 am Cannabis can be even worse than alcohol in small doses when it comes to mindfulness, even if alcohol has the potential to be overall much more damaging.

I mean, small doses in terms of smoking a joint vs. drinking a beer.
Yeah, even a little bit of cannabis clouds the mind immediately. Like a blanket of fuzziness. In my experience with alcohol I can still be very clear (there are limits of course :lol: ), but discernment eventually goes leading to heedlessness. With cannabis there is no clarity, so the discernment is unreliable from the start. But there's often not enough energy for heedlessness, so in that respect it's safer than alcohol.
It depends. If you have no tolerance then it's worse.
I used to smoke it but have given it up totally for a decade now. However there can be very definite and tangible performance enhancement if paired with a concentrated mind and in low doses. I know his through the extensive practice of martial arts that focus and conscious processing can be increased. This was verifiable in our practice and many others reported it also and we could see it in our practice. It's surprisingly common in martial arts for this reason.

However it is a slippery slope and in the end the harm and time wasting recreational use that came with it far outweighed the benefits.
But I do know through personal experience that it can be for a small few at least, a meditative enhancement if paired with a highly concentrated mind and used judiciously. This is why the initial comment about meditation enhancement was no surprise. The problem is, like psychedelics it can become a crutch and spiral into non meditative use which is why it's generally best to avoid completely unless you could be very disciplined with how you used it and in a spiritual setting only. The vast majority are unable to do this though.
"Therein monks, that Dimension should be known wherein the eye ceases and the perception of forms fades away...the ear... the nose...the tongue... the body ceases and the perception of touch fades away...

That Dimension should be known wherein mentality ceases and the perception of mind-objects fades away.
That Dimension should be known; that Dimension should be known."


(S. IV. 98) - The Dimension beyond the All
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Dhamma Chameleon
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Re: Meditation and Cannabis

Post by Dhamma Chameleon »

Cause_and_Effect wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 12:15 pm However it is a slippery slope and in the end the harm and time wasting recreational use that came with it far outweighed the benefits.
But I do know through personal experience that it can be for a small few at least, a meditative enhancement if paired with a highly concentrated mind and used judiciously. This is why the initial comment about meditation enhancement was no surprise. The problem is, like psychedelics it can become a crutch and spiral into non meditative use which is why it's generally best to avoid completely unless you could be very disciplined with how you used it and in a spiritual setting only. The vast majority are unable to do this though.
Yes, I discovered this too. I meditated very intensely and effectively with the aid of weed, intensified my practice (and consumption) over a number of months, went too far and had a psychosis - along with some genuine meditative insights. Still wouldn't recommend that route. Now if I smoke I immediately feel the fuzziness and a strong resistance against that fuzz. Meditating with a clear mind is so much better, safer and more honest (no crutches).
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Ajahn Pannobhasa is disrobing

Post by Ceisiwr »

Cause_and_Effect wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 4:41 am
As usual you are spouting based on theory and book knowledge only.
While I can't see a justification for use of Cannabis, in small doses it would not necessarily muddle mindfulness. The state itself would not be inclined to increase sensory gratification.
It is sensory gratification.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
Cause_and_Effect
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Re: Ajahn Pannobhasa is disrobing

Post by Cause_and_Effect »

Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 8:33 pm
Cause_and_Effect wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 4:41 am
As usual you are spouting based on theory and book knowledge only.
While I can't see a justification for use of Cannabis, in small doses it would not necessarily muddle mindfulness. The state itself would not be inclined to increase sensory gratification.
It is sensory gratification.
Are you speaking from experience?

I would call it conducive to altering the base mental state and mental processing, which may in turn be used for increased sensory gratification yes, or other purposes.
"Therein monks, that Dimension should be known wherein the eye ceases and the perception of forms fades away...the ear... the nose...the tongue... the body ceases and the perception of touch fades away...

That Dimension should be known wherein mentality ceases and the perception of mind-objects fades away.
That Dimension should be known; that Dimension should be known."


(S. IV. 98) - The Dimension beyond the All
BrokenBones
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Re: Ajahn Pannobhasa is disrobing

Post by BrokenBones »

Cause_and_Effect wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 11:45 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 8:33 pm
Cause_and_Effect wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 4:41 am
As usual you are spouting based on theory and book knowledge only.
While I can't see a justification for use of Cannabis, in small doses it would not necessarily muddle mindfulness. The state itself would not be inclined to increase sensory gratification.
It is sensory gratification.
Are you speaking from experience?

I would call it conducive to altering the base mental state and mental processing, which may in turn be used for increased sensory gratification yes, or other purposes.
What does any of that even mean. Of course it's sensory gratification... if I eat a chocolate cake (even a teeny weeny bit) I do it to satisfy my sense desires... honesty with oneself is the only way to address sensual desires.

Justification just makes the hole one is in even bigger.
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Re: Ajahn Pannobhasa is disrobing

Post by Cause_and_Effect »

BrokenBones wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 2:52 am
Cause_and_Effect wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 11:45 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 8:33 pm

It is sensory gratification.
Are you speaking from experience?

I would call it conducive to altering the base mental state and mental processing, which may in turn be used for increased sensory gratification yes, or other purposes.
What does any of that even mean. Of course it's sensory gratification... if I eat a chocolate cake (even a teeny weeny bit) I do it to satisfy my sense desires... honesty with oneself is the only way to address sensual desires.

Justification just makes the hole one is in even bigger.
It means there may be some minor sensory gratification when taking it but that is not the main purpose. The main purpose is the state it produces. This state is conducive to increased sensory gratification (enhanced taste,smell, sound etc).
Or if used differently it can be an enhancement of mental focus and meditation. It's basically an amplifier. However if used to excess it will lead to simply inebriation and lethargy, or even paranoid thoughts.


As I said, I do not take it for over a decade so there is no hole I am in or attempt at justification. I advice against using it.
But an overly simplistic approach does not help either or comparing it to food like chocolate.

It is indeed possible for some to enhance their meditation with it in small doses. The majority will not be able to use it like that though. Unless you have experience with it and using it for this purpose it will not be apparant.
"Therein monks, that Dimension should be known wherein the eye ceases and the perception of forms fades away...the ear... the nose...the tongue... the body ceases and the perception of touch fades away...

That Dimension should be known wherein mentality ceases and the perception of mind-objects fades away.
That Dimension should be known; that Dimension should be known."


(S. IV. 98) - The Dimension beyond the All
Cause_and_Effect
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Re: Meditation and Cannabis

Post by Cause_and_Effect »

Just to add, I am not endorsing use as a meditation adjunct. I have yet to encounter someone who used cannabis who did not have a recreational habit which is generally the antithesis of a disciplined meditative life.

However that is not to say it can't be done theoretically, and I dislike over simplifying the issue and making blanket assumptions when people do not have experience. This only obscures a deeper understanding of the mind and how it functions. And for a small minority they may be able to utilize it beneficially although no doubt that will be controversial.

In support therfore of the multitudes of anecdotal evidence about cannabis as a non specific amplifier of creativity and meditative focus in some cases, there have been some who looked at how this may be.
There can be an alteration in brainwaves that can be conducive to calm and alertness.
"It was clear that the cerebral rhythm was faster after smoking and that wave amplitude was larger - which doesn't mean that things function chaotically, but that the brain is in a higher alert state."

- Laura Craciun, neurologist commenting on Ana Lorga's findings.
https://www.hytiva.com/lifestyle/can-ca ... rain-waves

I generally think that for the majority against is much greater than for however.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7819316/
Last edited by Cause_and_Effect on Wed Oct 13, 2021 1:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Therein monks, that Dimension should be known wherein the eye ceases and the perception of forms fades away...the ear... the nose...the tongue... the body ceases and the perception of touch fades away...

That Dimension should be known wherein mentality ceases and the perception of mind-objects fades away.
That Dimension should be known; that Dimension should be known."


(S. IV. 98) - The Dimension beyond the All
BrokenBones
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Re: Meditation and Cannabis

Post by BrokenBones »

Trying something that could be...

"conducive to altering the base mental state and mental processing"

might be worth a try...

A tiny white lie, a stolen kiss (2 for 1) and wee sliver of weed... what could go wrong...

Maybe a teeny weeny bit of killing will give me the breakthrough.

It's all done to satisfy sensual desires because of lack of control.
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Re: Meditation and Cannabis

Post by Dweller »

So, bottom line is, for small doses to have any of the supposed benefits mentioned on this thread, one first needs to smoke a lot to develop tolerance.

Otherwise, you're wasted after second puff puff pass.

:)
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Re: Meditation and Cannabis

Post by Cause_and_Effect »

BrokenBones wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 1:04 pm
Maybe a teeny weeny bit of killing will give me the breakthrough.
If such discussion of alteration of brainwaves and spiritual use of psychedelics as a meditation adjunct gives rise to such thoughts and comparisons in you, you should examine yourself deeply, something is clearly wrong...
"Therein monks, that Dimension should be known wherein the eye ceases and the perception of forms fades away...the ear... the nose...the tongue... the body ceases and the perception of touch fades away...

That Dimension should be known wherein mentality ceases and the perception of mind-objects fades away.
That Dimension should be known; that Dimension should be known."


(S. IV. 98) - The Dimension beyond the All
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