Risk of taking vaccine jab

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cappuccino
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Re: Risk of taking vaccine jab

Post by cappuccino »

Spiny Norman wrote: Fri Dec 17, 2021 6:13 pm There's your problem.
science is not something to trust in
Last edited by cappuccino on Fri Dec 17, 2021 9:12 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Risk of taking vaccine jab

Post by Spiny Norman »

mikenz66 wrote: Fri Dec 17, 2021 6:24 pm
cappuccino wrote: Fri Dec 17, 2021 5:28 pm I think research is biased, media is biased


I must rely on whispers and clues
Like random people posting on the internet? Good luck with that.

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Re: Risk of taking vaccine jab

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mikenz66 wrote: Fri Dec 17, 2021 6:24 pm Like random people posting on the internet? Good luck with that.
depends…
Last edited by cappuccino on Fri Dec 17, 2021 10:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Risk of taking vaccine jab

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Kumara wrote: Thu Dec 16, 2021 1:23 am
Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Dec 15, 2021 7:24 am
Kumara wrote: Wed Dec 15, 2021 1:38 am

I think you need to fact-check that.
Which bit?
Come to think of it, all bits:
1. Medical trials always involve the government for oversight and independent panels.
2. If data has been fudged it can’t be hidden for long.
2. This is (what makes medical science so robust, and) why alternative medicine is always rejected as being nothing more than a placebo effect.
I suppose you're not going to fact-check them?
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Re: Risk of taking vaccine jab

Post by Ceisiwr »

Kumara wrote: Sat Dec 18, 2021 1:29 am
Kumara wrote: Thu Dec 16, 2021 1:23 am
Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Dec 15, 2021 7:24 am

Which bit?
Come to think of it, all bits:
1. Medical trials always involve the government for oversight and independent panels.
2. If data has been fudged it can’t be hidden for long.
2. This is (what makes medical science so robust, and) why alternative medicine is always rejected as being nothing more than a placebo effect.
I suppose you're not going to fact-check them?
Personally I don’t need to fact check them, but in terms of replying to your post I haven’t got around to it yet as I work full time with long hours and this thread was rather low on my list of priories regarding topics i am currently involved in. I’m working again today, but only half day so I should be free later to respond.
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Re: Risk of taking vaccine jab

Post by Ceisiwr »

Kumara wrote: Thu Dec 16, 2021 1:23 am
Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Dec 15, 2021 7:24 am
Kumara wrote: Wed Dec 15, 2021 1:38 am

I think you need to fact-check that.
Which bit?
Come to think of it, all bits:
1. Medical trials always involve the government for oversight and independent panels.
2. If data has been fudged it can’t be hidden for long.
2. This is (what makes medical science so robust, and) why alternative medicine is always rejected as being nothing more than a placebo effect.

1. Medical trials always involve the government for oversight and independent panels.
I have attached a flow chart. It comes from Oxford University. It outlines the procedures that have to be followed when beginning medical research. This is obviously just the U.K., but if we take the U.S.A (who spend the most on medical research globallly) they too also follow similar guidelines regarding research. There it is the Food & Drug Administration which regulates it.

2. If data has been fudged it can’t be hidden for long.
Thalidomide is a good example of when an approved drug goes wrong. Of course there the problem wasn't fudging the data. It was in not knowing that the (S)-enantiomer of the drug is teratogenic. The point is that even if the medical researches are in cahoots with Big Pharma, and both are in cahoots with the government and all 3 are fudging data that somehow gets past peer-review in the end the results can't be hidden. If a drug has severe side effects it will be noticed when it's rolled out to use on the general public.

3. This is (what makes medical science so robust, and) why alternative medicine is always rejected as being nothing more than a placebo effect.
I hope some of the above shows just how robust medical science is. Not perfect, no, but robust. Regarding TCM, if we take acupuncture I performed a few searches and read through some papers. The arguments in favour are studies which show that acupuncture leads to alleviation of ailments such as back pain. The problem with these studies is that it's difficult to construct a double blind experiment with acupuncture. Due to the nature of the treatment the person giving the treatment knows who has the treatment and who does not. In a recent review of the literature from 1989 - 2019 Paley & Johnson 2019 concluded:
"Our evidence synthesis reveals long-standing and continued uncertainty about the clinical efficacy of acupuncture to alleviate pain, despite a high volume of published research. We have revealed a raft of SRs with inconclusive findings due to persistent methodological shortcomings in RCTs contributing to a high risk of bias and downgrading of evidence. These shortcomings include inadequate statistical power, uncertainty about adequacy of acupuncture technique and dose, and inappropriate design of ‘placebo’ acupuncture controls. These contribute to methodological and clinical heterogeneity, deterring systematic reviewers from pooling data for meta-analyses. When meta-analyses are conducted, substantial statistical heterogeneity results, markedly reducing confidence in findings and inferences"
https://www-ncbi-nlm-nih-gov.ezproxy.ca ... MC7023333/

Regarding herbal TCM there are some studies which indicate that some herbs can promote an anti-inflammatory response, which of course is a good thing if you are suffering from COVID pneumonia. However these herbs are always used in conjunction with standard treatments, and are never a cure for COVID.

There is however some merit to the idea that governments can corrupt studies. If you look at research that comes from China regarding TCM they are nearly always positive, as well as suffering from methodological flaws. Perhaps influence from the CPC? Possible.
Attachments
clinical trial uk 1.jpg
Last edited by Ceisiwr on Sat Dec 18, 2021 8:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
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Re: Risk of taking vaccine jab

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Spiny Norman wrote: Fri Dec 10, 2021 3:53 pmThe main benefit of vaccination appears to be in reducing the likelihood of serious illness and hospitalisation.
Yes. And reducing the likelihood of a horrible, terrifying way to die or a very difficult recovery post-Covid. I work as an RN in a cardiac-medical ICU and see it firsthand.

By the time the patient gets to us, they’re either already intubated or their oxygenation is bad enough that they require the maximum ventilatory support short of an endotracheal tube. This is done with a machine called a BiPap whose business end is a very tight-fitting uncomfortable mask that goes over the mouth and nose and basically forces oxygenated air into their impaired lungs. Over days, oxygenation gets progressively worse to the point where taking the mask off for even 30 seconds causes blood oxygen saturation to drop to critically low levels. When a patient deteriorates to this point, all of us who work in the ICU know where this patient is headed: intubation. Of course, this whole time the patient is terrified, becoming progressively weaker, facing the very real and high likelihood of death, whose breathing is dependent on wearing a mask that causes skin breakdown from being worn so long, alone and trapped in a hospital room with no family allowed to visit.

And once you’re intubated, it’s game over the vast majority of the time. It’s just a matter of when, usually between a week and a month. In my experience, once a Covid patient is intubated about 95% die, still on the ventilator. And this is after we’ve done everything: vasopressors, proning, neuromuscular blockade, renal replacement therapy…the list goes on. The other 5% who make it out alive usually do so after a weeks-long struggle. And though they may be alive, they’ll be withdrawing from all the narcotics we’ve given them, likely have a tracheostomy, likely have PICS/PTSD, and will be facing months if not years of rehabilitation and healing to regain some percentage of their former physical and mental function. The two most recent patients I can recall in that category were a 40-something male firefighter and a 25 year old male, neither of whom was obese. The firefighter may have had hypertension/hyperlipidemia and the young guy had no comorbidities.

Again, the vast majority of Covid patients who get sick enough to earn a trip to the ICU are unvaccinated: I’d say about 95%. Many are overweight/obese and most have another comorbidity. The rest of the 5% who are vaccinated usually have one or more of the following: very old and have multiple serious comorbidities, only got one vaccine dose, or—and this is most common—Covid is not their primary problem and reason they’re in the ICU, e.g. they’re in the ICU for heart failure and also have Covid. I’ll tell you there’s one kind of patient I’ve never seen in the ICU: someone who had an adverse reaction to a vaccine.

All of that said, there is still a risk-benefit calculation to be made with regard to Covid vaccines (and for any intervention in general). For example, is it a good idea to give them to young children? I haven’t looked into this much, but the little that I’ve heard points to it not making sense. But for adults and all else being equal, the risk-benefit calculation is straightforward.
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Re: Risk of taking vaccine jab

Post by Spiny Norman »

Mkoll wrote: Sun Dec 19, 2021 7:59 am
Spiny Norman wrote: Fri Dec 10, 2021 3:53 pmThe main benefit of vaccination appears to be in reducing the likelihood of serious illness and hospitalisation.
Yes. And reducing the likelihood of a horrible, terrifying way to die or a very difficult recovery post-Covid. I work as an RN in a cardiac-medical ICU and see it firsthand.

By the time the patient gets to us, they’re either already intubated or their oxygenation is bad enough that they require the maximum ventilatory support short of an endotracheal tube. This is done with a machine called a BiPap whose business end is a very tight-fitting uncomfortable mask that goes over the mouth and nose and basically forces oxygenated air into their impaired lungs. Over days, oxygenation gets progressively worse to the point where taking the mask off for even 30 seconds causes blood oxygen saturation to drop to critically low levels. When a patient deteriorates to this point, all of us who work in the ICU know where this patient is headed: intubation. Of course, this whole time the patient is terrified, becoming progressively weaker, facing the very real and high likelihood of death, whose breathing is dependent on wearing a mask that causes skin breakdown from being worn so long, alone and trapped in a hospital room with no family allowed to visit.

And once you’re intubated, it’s game over the vast majority of the time. It’s just a matter of when, usually between a week and a month. In my experience, once a Covid patient is intubated about 95% die, still on the ventilator. And this is after we’ve done everything: vasopressors, proning, neuromuscular blockade, renal replacement therapy…the list goes on. The other 5% who make it out alive usually do so after a weeks-long struggle. And though they may be alive, they’ll be withdrawing from all the narcotics we’ve given them, likely have a tracheostomy, likely have PICS/PTSD, and will be facing months if not years of rehabilitation and healing to regain some percentage of their former physical and mental function. The two most recent patients I can recall in that category were a 40-something male firefighter and a 25 year old male, neither of whom was obese. The firefighter may have had hypertension/hyperlipidemia and the young guy had no comorbidities.

Again, the vast majority of Covid patients who get sick enough to earn a trip to the ICU are unvaccinated: I’d say about 95%. Many are overweight/obese and most have another comorbidity. The rest of the 5% who are vaccinated usually have one or more of the following: very old and have multiple serious comorbidities, only got one vaccine dose, or—and this is most common—Covid is not their primary problem and reason they’re in the ICU, e.g. they’re in the ICU for heart failure and also have Covid. I’ll tell you there’s one kind of patient I’ve never seen in the ICU: someone who had an adverse reaction to a vaccine.

All of that said, there is still a risk-benefit calculation to be made with regard to Covid vaccines (and for any intervention in general). For example, is it a good idea to give them to young children? I haven’t looked into this much, but the little that I’ve heard points to it not making sense. But for adults and all else being equal, the risk-benefit calculation is straightforward.
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Re: Risk of taking vaccine jab

Post by cappuccino »

Mkoll wrote: Sun Dec 19, 2021 7:59 am I’ll tell you there’s one kind of patient I’ve never seen in the ICU: someone who had an adverse reaction to a vaccine.
K… that's different than others are saying
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Re: Risk of taking vaccine jab

Post by Spiny Norman »

cappuccino wrote: Sun Dec 19, 2021 11:41 pm
Mkoll wrote: Sun Dec 19, 2021 7:59 am I’ll tell you there’s one kind of patient I’ve never seen in the ICU: someone who had an adverse reaction to a vaccine.
K… that's different than others are saying
To me the testimony of somebody working on the front line of the pandemic is far more credible than the deluded ramblings of conspiracy theorists on the internet.
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Re: Risk of taking vaccine jab

Post by cappuccino »

Spiny Norman wrote: Mon Dec 20, 2021 11:31 am To me the testimony of somebody working on the front line of the pandemic is far more credible than the deluded ramblings of conspiracy theorists on the internet.
people are fearful & want a solution


for better or worse
Last edited by cappuccino on Mon Dec 20, 2021 2:17 pm, edited 6 times in total.
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Re: Risk of taking vaccine jab

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Only one anecdote, but representative of thousands. This chap was a pilot:

https://rumble.com/vr568s-airline-safet ... tions.html
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Re: Risk of taking vaccine jab

Post by Spiny Norman »

Nicholas Weeks wrote: Tue Dec 21, 2021 6:20 pm Only one anecdote, but representative of thousands. This chap was a pilot:

https://rumble.com/vr568s-airline-safet ... tions.html
Meh. In the UK, 90% of Covid deaths in intensive care are unvaccinated patients. That tells you everything you need to know.
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Re: Risk of taking vaccine jab

Post by Kumara »

Thanks.
Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Dec 18, 2021 7:57 pm 1. Medical trials always involve the government for oversight and independent panels.
I have attached a flow chart. It comes from Oxford University. It outlines the procedures that have to be followed when beginning medical research. This is obviously just the U.K., but if we take the U.S.A (who spend the most on medical research globallly) they too also follow similar guidelines regarding research. There it is the Food & Drug Administration which regulates it.
Having guidelines is one thing; reality is another. Here's a recent and very relevant example of what I mean:
Covid-19: Researcher blows the whistle on data integrity issues in Pfizer’s vaccine trial
https://www.bmj.com/content/375/bmj.n2635

Specifically, read
Box 1
A history of lax oversight


2. If data has been fudged it can’t be hidden for long.
Thalidomide is a good example of when an approved drug goes wrong. Of course there the problem wasn't fudging the data. It was in not knowing that the (S)-enantiomer of the drug is teratogenic. The point is that even if the medical researches are in cahoots with Big Pharma, and both are in cahoots with the government and all 3 are fudging data that somehow gets past peer-review in the end the results can't be hidden. If a drug has severe side effects it will be noticed when it's rolled out to use on the general public.
You've qualified your statement with your last sentence. Yes, if a drug has severe side effects, surely the matter can’t be hidden for long.

But if it can be hidden, it will be. Some good examples:

1. The history of the discovery of the cigarette-lung cancer link: evidentiary traditions, corporate denial, global toll https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22345227/

2. "In 1956, at a time when doctors routinely X-rayed pregnant women, she published the first epidemiological study that suggested that a single prenatal diagnostic X-ray-far below what was regarded as safe at the time- doubled a child's risk of developing cancer. Yet her findings were dismissed for years by radiologists who continued to administer routine X-rays to pregnant women until at least the 1970s." (Source: https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio ... _Radiation)

3. This is (what makes medical science so robust, and) why alternative medicine is always rejected as being nothing more than a placebo effect.
I hope some of the above shows just how robust medical science is. Not perfect, no, but robust. Regarding TCM, if we take acupuncture I performed a few searches and read through some papers. The arguments in favour are studies which show that acupuncture leads to alleviation of ailments such as back pain. The problem with these studies is that it's difficult to construct a double blind experiment with acupuncture. Due to the nature of the treatment the person giving the treatment knows who has the treatment and who does not.
Indeed, due to the nature of the treatment, it's difficult to construct a double blind experiment with acupuncture. So, look at alternative medicine where double blind experiments can be done. Orthomolecular Medicine, pioneered by Nobel-Prize winner, Dr Linus Pauling,
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Re: Risk of taking vaccine jab

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Spiny Norman wrote: Tue Dec 21, 2021 8:18 pmMeh. In the UK, 90% of Covid deaths in intensive care are unvaccinated patients. That tells you everything you need to know.
Please cite support.
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