Piti and pamojja

Explore the ancient language of the Tipitaka and Theravāda commentaries
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Johann
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Re: Piti and pamojja

Post by Johann »

ToVincent wrote: Wed Jul 20, 2022 6:01 am
Johann wrote: Wed Jul 20, 2022 2:42 am (not sensual but because abounding it's hold, a mind-made one, having indentification beyond sensuality, in mind qualities)
Which "mind-made"?
Mano-made or citta-made?

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Byāsitta [vi+ā+sica+ta]
√ sic = to pour out (viz. expresses without restraint).
Note that Sujato's translation of byāsitta as "polluted" in SN 35.97 above, is not accurate, as usual — nor are by the way, his translations of pāmojja and pīti, as "joy" and "rapture". .

When eye (a sense,) meets with a sight, this is a sensual (sensorial) pleasure - not a citta's pleasure.
Citta is just experiencing that vedanā/experience, without restraint - when in a byāsitta mode. There is no pleasure involved in the citta at that level — and if there is some kind of pleasure, there is no sense involved into that for sure. Citta is not a field of sensory experience (neither ajjhattika, nor bāhirāni āyatanāni).

On the other hand, the pleasure of pāmojja is sensual (sensorial/physical), as it involves the eye (a sense / an internal field of sensory experience / ajjhattika āyatana) in the saḷāyatana nidāna.
And this goes pretty well with the definition of the Indian literature of the time (narrative).
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Good householder Vinzent,

pamojja, rejoicing, joy, which is an element of the path, which leads into access area, isn't any rejoice feed by the five senses, but result of letting go of them. As good householder Frank often tries to express, this joy is one nurished by proper thinking reflecting, as good householder had previously quoted.

Restrain from taking on sensual touch, Adhisila, gives certain relases by debtlessness, faultlessness, either gained by reflection on virtues worthy to identify or/e.g. through Satipatthana, gives ground for starting the elevation.
one feels the pleasure [pamojja] of being reconciled with himself [pīti], and the pleasure [sukha] of being at peace with oneself (passaddhi).
If the question of "which mind" is thought to classify it by it's state or action: pamojja (rejoice) causes pīti (satisfaction). So if one wishes, for this chain pamojja mano to pīti citta. Piti mano does toward passaddhi citta...
ToVincent
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Re: Piti and pamojja

Post by ToVincent »

Johann wrote: Wed Jul 20, 2022 8:18 am .....
Good householder Johann, I don't understand jack about what you are saying. But if this is what you think, then good for you.
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In this world, there are many people acting and yearning for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; and very few for the Unborn.
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Johann
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Re: Piti and pamojja

Post by Johann »

Not easy would one identify objects for path-leading pamojja, good householder. My person guesses that's here more about playing around with "real", so leaving yours in householding then, which is also mind-made in this sphere.

It's not easy to get the different between householder- and renouncing joy. The first is a very dangerous one, especially if assuming it equal or even a higher one.

Mudita
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Assaji
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Re: Piti and pamojja

Post by Assaji »

Hi Frank,
frank k wrote: Tue Jul 19, 2022 12:15 pm I wonder about that. (your assertion that pamojja is less intense than pīti).
What happens when people become skilled in all 4 jhānas, and their natural inclination is upekkha, really not prone to any strong emotion?
Is it not possible for them to have pīti sambojjhanga and do first and second jhānas anymore because we all assume pīti is intense?
I propose that pīti tends to be intense for those first learning lower jhānas, but when one is skilled in all 4 jhānas, pīti, pamojja, and mudita can all be a very subtle mental joy.

Similar to how someone who was in extreme poverty became extremely rich. There was initially intense emotional excitement, but once they became accustomed to their new normal of being rich, mental joy is just very subtle as they take it for granted as being 'normal' now.
Yes, I agree.

:anjali:
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