A friend who’s a butcher

Balancing family life and the Dhamma, in pursuit of a happy lay life.
myfriend
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A friend who’s a butcher

Post by myfriend »

Hello everybody,

I’ve been checking this website for quite awhile now and haven’t commented much but I had a question that I was hoping you could help me with.

It’s to do with skilful livelihood and its kammic consequences.

A friend of mine and his family run a very successful butcher business. They aren’t Buddhists and have not grasped the concept of skilful livelihood from the Buddhist point of view.

They live a seemingly happy life and also have the added benefit of making a lot of money from this business. I really don’t think they think their job is a problem. So if the Buddha recommendeds not being involved in the meat trade, how is my friend affected if he doesn’t think there’s a problem and he’s living a happy life and is getting rewarded with lots of money. I’m struggling to understand how this process works.

Thanks!
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confusedlayman
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Re: A friend who’s a butcher

Post by confusedlayman »

myfriend wrote: Sat Jun 05, 2021 11:08 am Hello everybody,

I’ve been checking this website for quite awhile now and haven’t commented much but I had a question that I was hoping you could help me with.

It’s to do with skilful livelihood and its kammic consequences.

A friend of mine and his family run a very successful butcher business. They aren’t Buddhists and have not grasped the concept of skilful livelihood from the Buddhist point of view.

They live a seemingly happy life and also have the added benefit of making a lot of money from this business. I really don’t think they think their job is a problem. So if the Buddha recommendeds not being involved in the meat trade, how is my friend affected if he doesn’t think there’s a problem and he’s living a happy life and is getting rewarded with lots of money. I’m struggling to understand how this process works.

Thanks!
He cant have guikt free life and next birth will be in bad realms if he dont change... people can earn money any way they want... that doesnt mean he is free from bad consequence
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
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DooDoot
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Re: A friend who’s a butcher

Post by DooDoot »

Hello M.F.

I imagine in the Buddha's time a business of meat included yourself regularly killing the animal. But your friend probably does not regularly kill the living animal. If your friend visited where the animals are killed, every day, he may start to feel sad or troubled. If he does not feel sad or troubled, then this may lead to rebirth in the animal realm, that is, not having what Buddhism calls "conscience & concern".
Monks, these two bright qualities guard the world. Which two? Conscience & concern.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
There are many videos on the internet about animal cruelty.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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myfriend
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Re: A friend who’s a butcher

Post by myfriend »

Thanks for the answers.

But what is the process that leads someone to be born in the animal realm if they are happy in this life and see no problem and live guilt free? In their mind they don’t think there is a problem and sleep well at night.

I’m still confused!!??

I know other people that want to start a beer brand. I just see people becoming alcoholics and intoxicated but once again they think it’s a good business move and fun. They don’t see a problem.
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DooDoot
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Re: A friend who’s a butcher

Post by DooDoot »

myfriend wrote: Sat Jun 05, 2021 11:46 am live guilt free?
I already suggested they may not yet be in the situation to feel guilt. For example, they may lose a child in an accident. When they feel sadness at the loss of their child, they may start to feel sadness when seeing animals being killed.

For example, when i was young a used to go fishing. Then one day, when some extreme suffering events occurred in my life, i stopped going fishing. I felt sorry for the fish.

Many people rejoice in cruel things because they have not yet experienced suffering and thus empathy.
myfriend wrote: Sat Jun 05, 2021 11:46 amI know other people that want to start a beer brand. I just see people becoming alcoholics and intoxicated but once again they think it’s a good business move and fun. They don’t see a problem.
I already mentioned the animal realm to you. I did not say the animal realm occurs in another life. The scripture say:
Monks, these two bright qualities guard the world. Which two? Conscience & concern. If these two bright qualities did not guard the world, there would be no recognition of 'mother' here, no recognition of 'mother's sister,' 'uncle's wife,' 'teacher's wife,' or 'wife of those who deserve respect.' The world would be immersed in promiscuity, like rams with goats, roosters with pigs, or dogs with jackals. But because these two bright qualities guard the world, there is recognition of 'mother,' 'mother's sister,' 'uncle's wife,' 'teacher's wife,' & 'wife of those who deserve respect.'"

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Bhikkhus, a god, a human or any other good state would not be evident from actions born of greed, hate and delusion. Yet, bhikkhus, from actions born of greed, hate and delusion a hellish being, an animal birth a ghostly birth or some other bad state would be evident.

AN 6.39
The world is full of people gaining pleasure out of harmful actions. For many people, the harmful kamma does not ripen until later.

:smile:
Last edited by DooDoot on Sat Jun 05, 2021 12:02 pm, edited 2 times in total.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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mjaviem
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Re: A friend who’s a butcher

Post by mjaviem »

myfriend wrote: Sat Jun 05, 2021 11:46 am Thanks for the answers.

But what is the process that leads someone to be born in the animal realm if they are happy in this life and see no problem and live guilt free? In their mind they don’t think there is a problem and sleep well at night.

I’m still confused!!??
...
There are people who believe in literal rebirth and support their belief on the Suttas and there are those who don't.

Your friend may be enjoying a comfortable life now but no one knows what's going to be like in the future. What if he is literally reborn in a lower realm? Or what if one day he starts thinking though he didn't kill the animals with his bare hands he still can be hold responsible for mass killings and he finds it's true because he didn't made anything to stop it? What if he faces protests against his business and his family in the future when people claim the abolition of animal meat in favor of synthetic meat?

Who knows. But it seems it's not compassionate nor wholesome.
Last edited by mjaviem on Sat Jun 05, 2021 12:05 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Namo Tassa Bhagavato Arahato Sammā Sambuddhassa
Inedible
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Re: A friend who’s a butcher

Post by Inedible »

It helps to read the Suttas directly. It takes a while, but you can see the stories of people who do things like handling meat and how they suffer after death. Buddha answers why it doesn't matter if they perceive wrongdoing.
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DooDoot
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Re: A friend who’s a butcher

Post by DooDoot »

myfriend wrote: Sat Jun 05, 2021 11:46 am I’m still confused!!??
I will provide one more answer because its bed time here.

I already suggested to you your friend is not killing the animals regularly themselves, therefore the direct kammic impact is negated.

Also, it is natural people kill animals for food therefore, depending on necessity, the kammic impact may not be so great, which is why the Buddha was silent on the matter of people occasionally killing animals for food to feed their family.

But if you are killing animals for most of your work day, it may affect your mind adversely, which is why some modern psychological studies have shown strong adverse effects from killing for people who work all day in a slaughter house.

Simply imagine you yourself spending 8 hours each day cutting the throats of cows or chopping off the heads of chickens.

Best wishes :smile:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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cappuccino
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Re: A friend who’s a butcher

Post by cappuccino »

myfriend wrote: Sat Jun 05, 2021 11:46 am But what is the process that leads someone to be born in the animal realm … ?
disbelief in the afterlife

:coffee:
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DNS
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Re: A friend who’s a butcher

Post by DNS »

As Mahāmoggallāna was descending from Vulture’s Peak Mountain he smiled at a certain spot. So Lakkhaṇa said to Mahāmoggallāna, “What is the cause, Reverend Moggallāna, what is the reason you smiled?”

“Reverend Lakkhaṇa, it’s the wrong time for this question. Ask me when we’re in the Buddha’s presence.”

Then Lakkhaṇa and Mahāmoggallāna wandered for alms in Rājagaha. After the meal, on their return from alms-round, they went to the Buddha, bowed, and sat down to one side. Lakkhaṇa said to Mahāmoggallāna:

“Just now, as Mahāmoggallāna was descending from Vulture’s Peak Mountain he smiled at a certain spot. What is the cause, Reverend Moggallāna, what is the reason you smiled?”

“Just now, reverend, as I was descending from Vulture’s Peak Mountain I saw a skeleton flying through the air. Vultures, crows, and hawks kept chasing it, pecking and clawing as it screeched in pain. It occurred to me: ‘It’s incredible, it’s amazing! That there can be such a sentient being, such an entity, such an incarnation!’”

Then the Buddha said to the mendicants:

“Mendicants, there are disciples who live full of vision and knowledge, since a disciple knows, sees, and witnesses such a thing.

Formerly, I too saw that being, but I did not speak of it. For if I had spoken of it others would not have believed me, which would be for their lasting harm and suffering.

That being used to be a cattle butcher right here in Rājagaha. As a result of that deed he burned in hell for many years, many hundreds, many thousands, many hundreds of thousands of years. Now he experiences the residual result of that deed in such an incarnation.”
https://suttacentral.net/sn19.1/en/sujato
However, as DooDoot noted, back in the time of the Buddha, the butchers probably did the actual killing of the animal whereas today, they just process and cut up the meat, preparing it for their customers.

There is the list of wrong livelihoods mentioned here:
“Monks, a lay follower should not engage in five types of business. Which five? Business in weapons, business in human beings, business in meat, business in intoxicants, and business in poison.” Anguttara Nikaya 5.177


And this probably does include butchers, but perhaps a lesser negative kammic effect if the butcher does not do the killing.
dharmacorps
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Re: A friend who’s a butcher

Post by dharmacorps »

I have family who were butchers. They didn't kill the animals. They cut up meat and packed it. It was a family biz passed on when they immigrated to the US--Its not a very good job anymore, here anyway, so they left the industry. If they did work as slaughterhouse workers, that might be something worth trying to talk to them about even if they aren't Buddhists. They may not want your advice though.
SarathW
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Re: A friend who’s a butcher

Post by SarathW »

This is a good question.
I can understand that if the butcher kills the animal he break the first precept.
But selling meat products is a big problem as we find meat by-products everywhere.
Shoes, clothes, ice cream, toothpaste, etc.
So if selling meat is bad then what about the selling of by-products like skins?
I feel that buying meat and cook and giving it to a monk is even worse.
Having said that I am not a vegetarian.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
myfriend
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Re: A friend who’s a butcher

Post by myfriend »

Thanks for the answers everybody!
greentea
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Re: A friend who’s a butcher

Post by greentea »

Doesn't he have a say on how the animal is killed? For example, if he wanted to sell halal meat wouldn't he have to order that? I understand if he can't since all of the sincere killed animals tend to be more expensive. Would a Buddhist burger restaurant be considered an oxymoron?
un8-
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Re: A friend who’s a butcher

Post by un8- »

greentea wrote: Mon Aug 23, 2021 11:45 am Doen't he have a say on how the animal is killed? For example, if he wanted to sell halal meat wouldn't he have to order that? I understand if he can't since all of the sincere killed animals tend to be more expensive. Would a Buddhist burger restaurant be considered an oxymoron?
No. Halal/Kosher is certified at the place where the animal is killed. Butchers these days rarely kill animals, they receive the carcasses and then divide and clean the meat for selling.
There is only one battle that could be won, and that is the battle against the 3 poisons. Any other battle is a guaranteed loss because you're going to die either way.
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