Why buddhist monks being called samana ?

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asahi
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Why buddhist monks being called samana ?

Post by asahi »

In suttas one can see sometimes bhikkhus are called samana why ? Was bhikkhu and samana synonym ?
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Re: Why buddhist monks being called samana ?

Post by Goofaholix »

asahi wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 6:23 am In suttas one can see sometimes bhikkhus are called samana why ? Was bhikkhu and samana synonym ?
All Bhikkhus are called samanas, novices are called samaneras. The meanings are different, see...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%9Arama%E1%B9%87a
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhikkhu#: ... bhikkhu%20(Pali%3A%20%E0%A4%AD%E0%A4%BF%E0%A4%95%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%96%E0%A5%81%2C,called%20the%20pr%C4%81timok%E1%B9%A3a%20or%20p%C4%81timokkha.
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.” ― Ajahn Chah
asahi
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Re: Why buddhist monks being called samana ?

Post by asahi »

Goofaholix wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 6:43 am
asahi wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 6:23 am In suttas one can see sometimes bhikkhus are called samana why ? Was bhikkhu and samana synonym ?
All Bhikkhus are called samanas, novices are called samaneras. The meanings are different, see...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%9Arama%E1%B9%87a
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhikkhu#: ... bhikkhu%20(Pali%3A%20%E0%A4%AD%E0%A4%BF%E0%A4%95%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%96%E0%A5%81%2C,called%20the%20pr%C4%81timok%E1%B9%A3a%20or%20p%C4%81timokkha.
Thanks but i am asking why not just refer as bhikkhu ? Samana include other ascetics . In the suttas , isnt Buddha suppose to refer to buddhist monk as bhikkhu only and not samana which may get confuse with other traditions .

Wiki :
The Śramaṇa tradition includes Jainism,[8] Buddhism,[9] and others such as the Ājīvikas, Ajñanas and Cārvākas.
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Sam Vara
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Re: Why buddhist monks being called samana ?

Post by Sam Vara »

asahi wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 7:27 am
Goofaholix wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 6:43 am
asahi wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 6:23 am In suttas one can see sometimes bhikkhus are called samana why ? Was bhikkhu and samana synonym ?
All Bhikkhus are called samanas, novices are called samaneras. The meanings are different, see...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%9Arama%E1%B9%87a
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhikkhu#: ... bhikkhu%20(Pali%3A%20%E0%A4%AD%E0%A4%BF%E0%A4%95%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%96%E0%A5%81%2C,called%20the%20pr%C4%81timok%E1%B9%A3a%20or%20p%C4%81timokkha.
Thanks but i am asking why not just refer as bhikkhu ? Samana include other ascetics . In the suttas , isnt Buddha suppose to refer to buddhist monk as bhikkhu only and not samana which may get confuse with other traditions .

Wiki :
The Śramaṇa tradition includes Jainism,[8] Buddhism,[9] and others such as the Ājīvikas, Ajñanas and Cārvākas.
I think it does indeed have the wider sense of wanderer, religious striver or recluse, which includes other traditions. But if it includes Buddhist monks or bhikkhus, and the context is clear, then I can't see a problem in using the term to refer to those bhikkhus, especially when one wants to point out their wandering or striving.
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Re: Why buddhist monks being called samana ?

Post by Dhammanando »

asahi wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 6:23 am Was bhikkhu and samana synonym ?
In some contexts they are synonymous, particularly when the words are being used in a valorized sense: "true bhikkhu," "true samana" or even "true brahmin".

For example, "samana" as used in the Mahaparinibbanasutta:
"Wherever, Subhadda, the Noble Eightfold Path is not found in a Dhamma and Vinaya, there a first true samana is not found, there a second true samana is not found, there a third true samana is not found, there a fourth true samana is not found."
(DN 16)
has the same meaning as "bhikkhu" as used in the Bhikkhu chapter of the Dhammapada:
He who has no attachment whatsoever for the mind and body, who does not grieve for what he has not—he is truly called a bhikkhu.
and the same meaning as "brahmana" as used in the Brahmana chapter of the Dhammapada:
He who, having cut off all fetters, trembles no more, who has overcome all attachments and is emancipated—him do I call a brahmana.
In all three cases the term denotes ariyan ascetics.
Rūpehi bhikkhave arūpā santatarā.
Arūpehi nirodho santataro ti.


“Bhikkhus, the formless is more peaceful than the form realms.
Cessation is more peaceful than the formless realms.”
(Santatarasutta, Iti 73)
asahi
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Re: Why buddhist monks being called samana ?

Post by asahi »

Dhammanando wrote: Fri Jun 11, 2021 10:04 am
In some contexts they are synonymous, particularly when the words are being used in a valorized sense: "true bhikkhu," "true samana" or even "true brahmin".

For example, "samana" as used in the Mahaparinibbanasutta:
"Wherever, Subhadda, the Noble Eightfold Path is not found in a Dhamma and Vinaya, there a first true samana is not found, there a second true samana is not found, there a third true samana is not found, there a fourth true samana is not found."
(DN 16)
has the same meaning as "bhikkhu" as used in the Bhikkhu chapter of the Dhammapada:
He who has no attachment whatsoever for the mind and body, who does not grieve for what he has not—he is truly called a bhikkhu.
and the same meaning as "brahmana" as used in the Brahmana chapter of the Dhammapada:
He who, having cut off all fetters, trembles no more, who has overcome all attachments and is emancipated—him do I call a brahmana.
In all three cases the term denotes ariyan ascetics.
Bhante , but it appears that in the vinaya those terms were not used except only bhikkhu . Perhaps Buddha used bhikkhu so to differentiate from other ascetics .
I wonder if other ascetics or religion mendicants ever when referring to themselves as a bhikkhu . Would you refer to your own self as a samana ? What about while communicate with others ? Would it be proper for buddhist monks to called themselves samana or even bramana ?
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Re: Why buddhist monks being called samana ?

Post by Dhammanando »

asahi wrote: Sat Jun 12, 2021 1:01 am Bhante , but it appears that in the vinaya those terms were not used except only bhikkhu .
Even in the Vinaya there are passages where samaṇa is synonymous with bhikkhu. For example, one of the ways of announcing that you're giving up the bhikkhu training is by saying "assamaṇoti maṃ dhārehi", "Hold me to be not a samaṇa". And a stock phrase to describe a pārājika bhikkhu is "assamaṇo hoti asakyaputtiyo", "He is not a samaṇa, not a son of the Sakyan."
asahi wrote: Sat Jun 12, 2021 1:01 amPerhaps Buddha used bhikkhu so to differentiate from other ascetics .
Sure. In contexts where it's necessary to stress the point, i.e., where it might not otherwise be obvious.
asahi wrote: Sat Jun 12, 2021 1:01 amI wonder if other ascetics or religion mendicants ever when referring to themselves as a bhikkhu .
Yes, the Jains did (and still do) though it isn't the principal term they use for their monks, but just an alternative one.
asahi wrote: Sat Jun 12, 2021 1:01 amWould you refer to your own self as a samana ?
I've never called myself a samaṇa but I've often referred to the renunciate life as "the life (or practice) of a samaṇa".
asahi wrote: Sat Jun 12, 2021 1:01 amWhat about while communicate with others ? Would it be proper for buddhist monks to called themselves samana or even bramana ?
In my opinion it would be better not to. Listeners may think that they are using it in its valorized sense and claiming ariyan attainment.
Rūpehi bhikkhave arūpā santatarā.
Arūpehi nirodho santataro ti.


“Bhikkhus, the formless is more peaceful than the form realms.
Cessation is more peaceful than the formless realms.”
(Santatarasutta, Iti 73)
asahi
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Re: Why buddhist monks being called samana ?

Post by asahi »

Dhammanando wrote: Sat Jun 12, 2021 5:48 am In my opinion it would be better not to. Listeners may think that they are using it in its valorized sense and claiming ariyan attainment.
I think in majority of buddhists whether monastics and especially lays , the understanding are not that deep and thorough thus probably would not regard a bhikkhu (if by calling himself a samana or brahmana) are claiming ariyan attaintment but rather most might be mistaken that by saying so they are erroneously identifying themselves with other ascetics or religions .


:thanks:
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Re: Why buddhist monks being called samana ?

Post by Gwi »

Dunt say "monk", using "bhikkhu".

Bhikkhu is samaṇå 'hermit/ascetic'
Coz, bhikkhu live as an ascetic.

Buddhisme = ascetic (type) religion

One fact:
Buddhis religion is the number 1
ascetic type religion in the world
from the time it was first established
UNTIL NOW! (+/- 2.500).

In a row, breaking records!! :clap:
Bahagia Tidak Harus Selalu Bersama

Dhammapadå 370
"Tinggalkanlah 5 (belantara) dan patahkan 5 (belenggu rendah),
Serta kembangkan 5 potensi (4 iddhipādā + 1 ussoḷhi).
Bhikkhu yang telah menaklukkan 5 kungkungan (belenggu tinggi),
Lebih layak disebut 'orang yang telah mengarungi air baih (saṃsārå)'."
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Re: Why buddhist monks being called samana ?

Post by Mr. Seek »

Samanas... bhikkhus... brahmanas... these terms require research for one to understand them properly, so that's what I'll advice; there's no straightforward translations of them because they carry specific cultural/historic value.

Samanas were a specific movement. What we now call bhikkhus, i.e. the wandering-begging-ascetic-devotees-of -Gotama, were merely one small current within the ocean of samanas. Another such current was the jains; the ajivikas too if my memory is correct.
read this yo: take my posts with a grain of salt, because, who knows, they may or may not be proper or correct
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Re: Why buddhist monks being called samana ?

Post by TRobinson465 »

I figure samana is basically the same as the English word "ascetic" whereas bhikkhu is a term for Buddhist monks specifically. The Buddha is called Samana Gotama many times in the texts, usually by non-Buddhists since a non Buddhist would not call the Buddha, "The Buddha" (enlightened one) since they dont/didnt believe hes enlightened.
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Re: Why buddhist monks being called samana ?

Post by Mr. Seek »

Mr. Seek wrote: Sun Sep 05, 2021 11:57 am Samanas... bhikkhus... brahmanas... these terms require research for one to understand them properly, so that's what I'll advice; there's no straightforward translations of them because they carry specific cultural/historic value.

Samanas were a specific movement. What we now call bhikkhus, i.e. the wandering-begging-ascetic-devotees-of -Gotama, were merely one small current within the ocean of samanas. Another such current was the jains; the ajivikas too if my memory is correct.
I recommend a video such as this one for a description of what a samana is and isn't.



She lists three main characteristics: rejection of the vedas and everything espoused by the brahmins; rejection of sacrifices and rituals as proper means of salvation; rejection of the brahminic pantheon of gods, deities, avatars, etc. There's much more to it though, obviously.
Last edited by Mr. Seek on Wed Sep 29, 2021 5:19 am, edited 2 times in total.
read this yo: take my posts with a grain of salt, because, who knows, they may or may not be proper or correct
sarahedmonds
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Re: Why buddhist monks being called samana ?

Post by sarahedmonds »

maybe Buddha used bhikkhu so to differentiate from other ascetics :shrug:
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Re: Why buddhist monks being called samana ?

Post by JohnSo »

Not all Bhikkhus are Samana. Bhikkhus and Samanas are different.

Those who called as Bhikkhus are those who used Saffron robe or whatever the coloured robes. They are of the same robes but with different motives to be a Bhikkhu.

Those who called as Samanas are those who practically trained themselves the Fourth of the Four Noble Truth as taught by the Buddha.

There maybe people with Saffron Robe who is trained himself. He is a Samana. A Bhikkhu during The Buddha era. A real Bhikkhu today.

And, there maybe people with Saffron Robe but he never trained himself the Fourth of The Noble Truth. He is not a Samana. A bad Bhikkhu today.

Now, there are a few people without Saffron Robe but he trained himself the Fourth of The Noble Truth and live inline with the Vinaya himself but never ritually take anything that shows him a monk. A Samana but not a Bhikkhu. There maybe several reasons such as political reason, etc.

Hope you could understand the changes due to the situation. There are definition but definition change a lot due time. Definition in The Buddha era are different with definition today.
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