Why give up sensual pleasures?

[Noble Sangha]

you have will power to let go

What does letting go mean to you? We're like monkeys jumping from branch to branch? For example, when we get bored of one thing, we move onto another thing that brings us delight?

Or

One has attained one of the attainments such as sotapanna, sakadagami, etc . . .?

[cappuccino]

What does letting go mean to you?

Letting go means not indulging in coffee


Or … anything, everything

[Mahabrahma]

There was a monk talking about monkey mind, monkey mind. All this chatter and chatter. Like you would be looking into the mirror and it seemed that you were a bit fat because of how your monkey mind was treating you. But in actuality you're actuality you're not so fat at all. The monkey mind can be fully controlled by the Buddha's Teachings. All of our problems dependently originate by and by the mind, and co-arising, these problems take their root in us and without fully taming the mind, a bunch of monkeys in our mind can one day cause havoc. So it's important to fully tame the mind and practice the Virtue of the Buddha.

[Noble Sangha]

Letting go means not indulging in coffee

Or … anything, everything

According to the general Theravada orthodox teachings, only an Arahant would fit your criterial of being able to let go of "anything and everything."

Would you agree or disagree that one's an Arahant when they are able to let go of "anything and everything"?

If you disagree, then please do explain.

[cappuccino]

only an Arahant would fit your criterial of being able to let go of "anything and everything."

that's the Buddhist goal

[Noble Sangha]

you just understand delight is the reason you're in Saṃsāra

Do yourself understand that delight is the reason we're in samsara? You must have correct?

Do you believe that the most of us here on DW understand that delight is the reason we're in samsara?

[cappuccino]

Do yourself understand that delight is the reason we're in samsara? You must have correct?

Do you believe that the most of us here on DW understand that delight is the reason we're in samsara?

Some do understand, that’s the easy part


Letting go … is difficult

[wenjaforever]

You don't know what delight is. In tavatimsa, you party everyday. Food and drink on the table and apsaras. There's alcohol too but when you get drunk they kick you out of heaven.

You can fly in Yama heaven so you don't have to deal with asura invasions. In tusita you're always stoned for no reason. In this place you might even forget about apsaras. In the 5th heaven, can't remember the name, too long, you are a creator.

You have no clue what delight and power is.

[Maharaja]

The problem is, you dont just get bored of one thing and then your desire is over. Once you get bored of one thing you seek another, then another, then another. And its a never ending thing. Always chasing it like a mirage. You always think the happiness is right there, so you run, only to have it move further and further away. So you spend your whole life running behind happiness, but never actually getting it. Thats why you need to develop the dasa saññā, practice satipatthana, indriya samvara, etc. Once you remove the desire for aights, sounds, smells, tastes, bodily feelings, then no matter what kind of sensory input you get, your mind is satisfied. Your mind doesnt need to depend on external environment for you to be happy then.

Yes but you have to understand it yourself. Not just because someone said so. You have to taste sugar with your own tongue to know what sweet is like. The sensual realm is a phase you have to go through to understand the whole and complete dhamma. Don't take no shortcuts. You might say there is no soul, but is there a body? Do you have a physical body? Yes matter exists, but is it the ultimate truth? Do the 5 senses and your neural system exist? Does the mind exist? Yes the soul exists but it is not the ultimate truth. You can't just leap to reach the top floor, you need to take the staircase.

Yes bro Im agreeing with you here. No matter how much you tell people that, it's not going to be meaningful until they look into their lives and realize it themselves. All we can do is help them to look, and help them to analyze their experiences. Main question is, you have to ask yourself 'what have i been looking for my whole life'. Then only you can start to realize kama tanha, avijja, dukkha, etc. This will be your basis for precepts and generosity and realizing non self, meditation, sense restraint, etc.

[wenjaforever]

Everyone is perfect in tavatimsa. No disease. No illness. No deformities. Nanda compared his wife to a torn dead monkey. That's how ugly she is compared to tavatimsa dwellers. Imagine the most perfect person you ever seen or you can imagine.

[Maharaja]

So what happened to the Buddha's marriage after 45?
He never touched his wife again?

Didn't he attain Arahantship at 35? He probably didn't touch anyone (other than maybe washing someone), as he said the human body is a rotting stench.

A rotting stench? We are talking about human beings here.
Buddha had a body as well.

Exactly. I have a stinking body, and so do others. That leaves no room for superiority or inferiority or issues with slef image or discrimination, because we're all the same.

[wenjaforever]

Yes bro Im agreeing with you here. No matter how much you tell people that, it's not going to be meaningful until they look into their lives and realize it themselves. All we can do is help them to look, and help them to analyze their experiences. Main question is, you have to ask yourself 'what have i been looking for my whole life'. Then only you can start to realize kama tanha, avijja, dukkha, etc. This will be your basis for precepts and generosity and realizing non self, meditation, sense restraint, etc.

Nope that's not how it works, at all

[Maharaja]

Yes bro Im agreeing with you here. No matter how much you tell people that, it's not going to be meaningful until they look into their lives and realize it themselves. All we can do is help them to look, and help them to analyze their experiences. Main question is, you have to ask yourself 'what have i been looking for my whole life'. Then only you can start to realize kama tanha, avijja, dukkha, etc. This will be your basis for precepts and generosity and realizing non self, meditation, sense restraint, etc.

Nope that's not how it works, at all

then how does it work? is it not by realizing that your whole life, you have been a slave of desire/craving? and then understand the drawbacks of it, and then make an effort to remove desire?

[SecretSage]

Hello, this is my first post here, and came to ask the only one important question I have regarding the dhamma, as someone who has tried to practice for several years.

From my position

- I don't know if rebirth is true or that I will be reborn, so when I die my life is over
- As a 36 year old, I have another 40-50 years at best to live, so I want to enjoy life
- Even though I know sensual pleasures are impermanent, I know pleasant feelings are Impermanent, and I know access to sensual pleasures are impermanent (I may go blind, lose my teeth, lose internet, money, etc..) I still want to enjoy sensual pleasures in the here and now

So faith, ideology, and metaphysics aside, which are things I can't verify here and now like rebirth, why should I give up sensual pleasures?

Take pornography for example, it takes zero effort to load up a website, it doesn't physically harm you, it can mentally harm you if you're obsessively addicted, but what's wrong with someone spending less than 20 minutes a day getting the urge out and then moving on? I know the pleasant feeling of an orgasm is extremely short and momentarily but in the moment it feels good and then when the feeling is gone, you move on.

No matter how many suttas I've read on this topic, or how many hours I've spent meditating, I can't rationally nor experientially arrive at a point where I give up sensual pleasures.

Thank you in advance for your input

It's not the mere act of giving up sensual pleasures that leads to arahantship it's the combination of giving up sensual pleasures and practicing in a correct way that leads towards arahantship here and now.

There were many ascetics of other schools with somewhat similar views against sensual pleasures that The Buddha ridiculed as never achieving anything worthwhile because they didn't practice in ways that lead towards arahantship like the ascetics who practiced painful austerities....they too opposed sensual pleasures but never achieved enlightenment or even any of the jhanas.

So be careful with merely giving up sensual pleasure alone and ignoring correct practices.

The joy and happiness from the 4 jhanas, 4 dimensions, and arahantship are superior in terms of pleasure to sensual pleasures.

But without experience how can someone explain? It would be just like someone always having bad food never having a tasty delicious meal wondering how could something taste better?

When someone practices correctly through direct experience they'll understand how sensual pleasures are temporary and sometimes cause pain.

The 10 different levels of pleasure are explained in SN 36.19 and elsewhere as:

1. Sensual pleasure
2. 1st Jhana
3. 2nd Jhana
4. 3rd Jhana
5. 4th Jhana
6. Dimension of infinite space
7. Dimension of infinite consciousness
8. Dimension of nothingness
9. Dimension of neither perception nor non-perception
10. Cessation of perception and feeling

[readysetletgo]

If you look at the results of indulging in sensual pleasures, they lead to various inadequate situations. Liver damage, addiction, and depression when aging becomes a limiting factor are some examples. Letting them go now and not letting them weigh in our minds and bodies is actually creating a more stress-free and healthier, longer living.