Recollection of the Devas

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
un8-
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Re: Recollection of the Devas

Post by un8- »

sphairos wrote: Sat Aug 07, 2021 2:04 pm In this sutta the Buddha simply says that those beings are essentially unreal.

They are produced by causes and conditions and do not partake in Nirvāṇa. So they are essentially not different that sticks and stones around us. This is the message of that recollection.
It's not that they are unreal, it's that they are liable to falling a part. A car is real, but because the car depends on so many detailed mechanisms after 15-20 years it falls a part and those parts need to be replaced.

So you could say the car depends on its parts. The essential part of a car is the engine which converts fuel into kinetic energy. Without an engine you don't really have a car.

Every object has an essential part. For a car it's the engine, for a chair it's the part you sit on, for a being it's craving. Craving is the engine for a being.

Imho, real vs unreal falls into the wrong view trap of metaphysics.
There is only one battle that could be won, and that is the battle against the 3 poisons. Any other battle is a guaranteed loss because you're going to die either way.
Pulsar
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Re: Recollection of the Devas

Post by Pulsar »

Sphairos wrote
In this sutta the Buddha simply says that those beings are essentially unreal.
They are produced by causes and conditions and do not partake in Nirvāṇa. So they are essentially not different to sticks and stones around us. This is the message of that recollection.
Brilliance in the brevity of words. Dearest Sp. sometimes you are really cool.
With love :candle:
PS gods that are sticks and stones carried away to be turned into ashes.
Cause_and_Effect
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Re: Recollection of the Devas

Post by Cause_and_Effect »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Aug 08, 2021 2:25 am
asahi wrote: Sat Aug 07, 2021 1:57 pm Can we say some of the followers of hinduism , taoism , Islamic and Christianity are actually practising part of devata recollection ?! :shrug:
Why not? St Aquinas seems to have had an experience of Jhana, or at least access concentration, after Mass.
I believe this to be true yes.
Of course the other religious would not accept it but most of them do not know about rebirth and certainly are teaching some form of re-appearance in the heavenly world as a final goal.

As I understand it, the original translation from the Hebrew in the Bible regarding heaven is not 'for ever' but rather 'for a very long time'.

The Kama-loka divine planes are accessable by virtue and moral discipline so would be a possible destination to those of any or no religion who maintained this.

Some of the mystics of these traditions would have also likely been accessing some of the higher planes beyond this if they had attained to a degree of jhana or concentration, known by some other name.

We already have discussed how the Bodhisattas early teachers such as Alara Kalama had access to the Base of Nothingness, and Udakka Ramaputta who is speculated to have been a Jain was teaching the path to the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception.

Most of the other early religions had venerated the gods of the kamaloka planes closer to the human level since the devas there were more likely to be discerned and more relatable.

The teaching of attainment to heavenly planes is shared with many other religions. The unique contribution of the Buddha's teaching is that of dependent co-arising and the Four Enobling Truths, leading to Stream-Entry.

The Canon also records that most of the devas believe they are eternal, and are filled with dread on hearing the Dhamma.

"Devas who are long-lived, beautiful, abounding in pleasure, established for a long time in high palaces, on hearing the Tathāgata’s Dhamma, for the most part feel fear, terror, and fright:
‘We thought ourselves to be constant, but it seems we are inconstant! We thought ourselves to be permanent, but it seems we are impermanent! We thought ourselves to be eternal, but it seems we are non-eternal! We—inconstant, impermanent, and non-eternal, it seems—are encompassed in self-identification.’
So powerful in the world with its devas, monks, is the Tathāgata—so mighty & majestic.”

When the Awakened One, through direct knowledge,
—the Teacher, the person with no peer
in the world with its devas—
sets the Dhamma wheel rolling:
the cessation of self-identification,
and the cause of self-identification,
and the noble eightfold path,
leading to the stilling of suffering,
long-lived devas—beautiful, prestigious—
become fearful & frightened,
like deer at a lion’s roar.
‘We’re not beyond self-identification.
It seems we’re inconstant,’ [they say,]
on hearing the word of the Worthy One,
the one fully released,
the one who is Such."


https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/SN/SN22_78.html
"Therein monks, that Dimension should be known wherein the eye ceases and the perception of forms fades away...the ear... the nose...the tongue... the body ceases and the perception of touch fades away...

That Dimension should be known wherein mentality ceases and the perception of mind-objects fades away.
That Dimension should be known; that Dimension should be known."


(S. IV. 98) - The Dimension beyond the All
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Recollection of the Devas

Post by Ceisiwr »

Cause_and_Effect wrote: Mon Aug 09, 2021 3:01 am [We already have discussed how the Bodhisattas early teachers such as Alara Kalama had access to the Base of Nothingness, and Udakka Ramaputta who is speculated to have been a Jain was teaching the path to the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception.
I think it’s likely they were both annihilationists.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
Cause_and_Effect
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Re: Recollection of the Devas

Post by Cause_and_Effect »

Ceisiwr wrote: Mon Aug 09, 2021 7:12 am
Cause_and_Effect wrote: Mon Aug 09, 2021 3:01 am [We already have discussed how the Bodhisattas early teachers such as Alara Kalama had access to the Base of Nothingness, and Udakka Ramaputta who is speculated to have been a Jain was teaching the path to the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception.
I think it’s likely they were both annihilationists.
Annhilationism implies the belief in destruction of the mind at death, akin to a modern atheistic belief.
If they had been so, why would they have bothered to spend arduous amounts of time to develop these attainments?
They clearly had a goal and it would indicate a belief in rebirth, but they mistook it as a final liberation whereas the Buddha discerned that it did not lead there but only to rebirth in the dimensions of nothingness and the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, but still subject to the rounds of rebirth after that.
"Therein monks, that Dimension should be known wherein the eye ceases and the perception of forms fades away...the ear... the nose...the tongue... the body ceases and the perception of touch fades away...

That Dimension should be known wherein mentality ceases and the perception of mind-objects fades away.
That Dimension should be known; that Dimension should be known."


(S. IV. 98) - The Dimension beyond the All
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Recollection of the Devas

Post by Ceisiwr »

Cause_and_Effect wrote: Mon Aug 09, 2021 7:55 am
Ceisiwr wrote: Mon Aug 09, 2021 7:12 am
Cause_and_Effect wrote: Mon Aug 09, 2021 3:01 am [We already have discussed how the Bodhisattas early teachers such as Alara Kalama had access to the Base of Nothingness, and Udakka Ramaputta who is speculated to have been a Jain was teaching the path to the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception.
I think it’s likely they were both annihilationists.
Annhilationism implies the belief in destruction of the mind at death, akin to a modern atheistic belief.
If they had been so, why would they have bothered to spend arduous amounts of time to develop these attainments?
They clearly had a goal and it would indicate a belief in rebirth, but they mistook it as a final liberation whereas the Buddha discerned that it did not lead there but only to rebirth in the dimensions of nothingness and the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, but still subject to the rounds of rebirth after that.
It seems the annihilationists thought of annihilation as not something which just happens but which is something to be sought out. There is no contradiction between being an annihilationist and believing in rebirth, with annihilation being seen as the escape from rebirth. I don’t think modern atheism quite covers it. I’ve discussed it at greater length here: viewtopic.php?f=29&t=39503

The formless seem to have been seen as a means to annihilate one’s self, by some annihilationists.
DN 1 at DN I 37,1 and its parallels DĀ 21 at T I 93b20, T 21 at T I 269c22, a Tibetan discourse parallel in Weller 1934: 58,3 (§191), a discourse quotation in the *Śāriputrābhidharma, T 1548 at T XXVIII 660b24, and a discourse quotation in D 4094 ju 152a4 or Q 5595 tu 175a8. The same versions also attribute the arising of annihilationist views to the immaterial attainments (for Sanskrit fragments corresponding to the section on annihilationism see also Hartmann 1989: 54 and SHT X 4189, Wille 2008: 307).
https://www.buddhismuskunde.uni-hamburg ... o/ebms.pdf

Ven. Analayo

The parallel to SN 47.31 even explicitly states that Uddaka Rāmaputta was an annihilationist:

"Uddaka Rāmaputta had this view and taught like this, “Existence is an illness, a tumour, a thorn. Those who advocate nonperception are foolish. Those who have realized [know]: this is tranquil, this is sublime, namely attaining the sphere of neither-perception-nor-nonperception.”

The Discourse on Uddaka [Rāmaputta] - MĀ 114
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
sakka
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Re: Recollection of the Devas

Post by sakka »

Hmmm some of the Jain practices might have been really really extreme back in the days since modern Jain practioners today refuse to even eat fresh vegetables (since the plants/vegetables are considered to be alive) and wait until the vegetables have no life force and brown spots appear and as a result some get sick from malnutrition.
Annhilationism implies the belief in destruction of the mind at death, akin to a modern atheistic belief.


No, it is wrong view (not believing in kamma-vipaka, not knowing that there's holy men, and not believing in other planes of existence) that implies the destruction of the mind at death, akin to a modern atheistic belief.
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Re: Recollection of the Devas

Post by Cause_and_Effect »

Ceisiwr wrote: Mon Aug 09, 2021 9:58 am
It seems the annihilationists thought of annihilation as not something which just happens but which is something to be sought out. There is no contradiction between being an annihilationist and believing in rebirth, with annihilation being seen as the escape from rebirth. I don’t think modern atheism quite covers it. I’ve discussed it at greater length here: viewtopic.php?f=29&t=39503

The formless seem to have been seen as a means to annihilate one’s self, by some annihilationists.
DN 1 at DN I 37,1 and its parallels DĀ 21 at T I 93b20, T 21 at T I 269c22, a Tibetan discourse parallel in Weller 1934: 58,3 (§191), a discourse quotation in the *Śāriputrābhidharma, T 1548 at T XXVIII 660b24, and a discourse quotation in D 4094 ju 152a4 or Q 5595 tu 175a8. The same versions also attribute the arising of annihilationist views to the immaterial attainments (for Sanskrit fragments corresponding to the section on annihilationism see also Hartmann 1989: 54 and SHT X 4189, Wille 2008: 307).
https://www.buddhismuskunde.uni-hamburg ... o/ebms.pdf

Ven. Analayo

The parallel to SN 47.31 even explicitly states that Uddaka Rāmaputta was an annihilationist:

"Uddaka Rāmaputta had this view and taught like this, “Existence is an illness, a tumour, a thorn. Those who advocate nonperception are foolish. Those who have realized [know]: this is tranquil, this is sublime, namely attaining the sphere of neither-perception-nor-nonperception.”

The Discourse on Uddaka [Rāmaputta] - MĀ 114
That's definitely an interesting discussion, thanks.

However, it wouldn't change my statements on them in this regard.
Even if we go by this definition of annihilationism and we are to think they subscribed to that view, the fact remains that their practices were leading to the two longest lasting deva planes within samsara of the arupa-lokas (I actually think the Pure abodes should be considered the highest planes in samsara since they are irreversibly connected to Nibbana unlike any other realm, but they are traditionally placed below the arupa realms having a shorter lifespan).
So we can speculate as to their motivations and world view but the only thing we can definitively say is that their attainments led there, and that is where they are now.

Regarding this version of the annihilationist view itself, it's also a view that one comes across occasionally even among Theravadins who have misinterpreted the 'cessation of becoming' in such a way, but again that's a different topic.
"Therein monks, that Dimension should be known wherein the eye ceases and the perception of forms fades away...the ear... the nose...the tongue... the body ceases and the perception of touch fades away...

That Dimension should be known wherein mentality ceases and the perception of mind-objects fades away.
That Dimension should be known; that Dimension should be known."


(S. IV. 98) - The Dimension beyond the All
Mr Albatross
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Re: Recollection of the Devas

Post by Mr Albatross »

Cause_and_Effect wrote: Mon Aug 09, 2021 11:25 am Even if we go by this definition of annihilationism and we are to think they subscribed to that view, the fact remains that their practices were leading to the two longest lasting deva planes within samsara of the arupa-lokas (I actually think the Pure abodes should be considered the highest planes in samsara since they are irreversibly connected to Nibbana unlike any other realm, but they are traditionally placed below the arupa realms having a shorter lifespan).
So we can speculate as to their motivations and world view but the only thing we can definitively say is that their attainments led there, and that is where they are now.
Okay, but "definitively" only for those who trust the commentarial report that the two ascetics were reborn in the heavens of nothingness and neither-perception-nor-non-perception, respectively. For those who trust only the suttas, it's an open question, for nothing is said in them about where they were reborn. We are told only that the Buddha had wanted to teach them first but they died too soon.
Then it occurred to the Lord: “Now, to whom should I first teach dhamma? Who will understand this dhamma quickly?” Then it occurred to the Lord: “Indeed, this Āḷāra the Kālāma is learned, experienced, wise, and for a long time has had little dust in his eyes. Suppose I were to teach dhamma first to Āḷāra the Kālāma? He will understand this dhamma quickly.”

But then an invisible devatā announced to the Lord: “Lord, Āḷāra the Kālāma passed away seven days ago.” And the knowledge arose to the Lord that Āḷāra the Kālāma had passed away seven days ago. Then it occurred to the Lord: “Āḷāra the Kālāma was of great intelligence. If he had heard this dhamma, he would have understood it quickly.”

Then it occurred to the Lord: “Now, to whom should I first teach dhamma? Who will understand this dhamma quickly?” Then it occurred to the Lord: “Indeed, this Uddaka, Rāma’s son, is learned, experienced, wise, and for a long time has had little dust in his eyes. Suppose I were to teach dhamma first to Uddaka, Rāma’s son? He will understand this dhamma quickly.”

But then an invisible devatā announced to the Lord: “Lord, Uddaka, Rāma’s son, passed away last night.” And the knowledge arose to the Lord that Uddaka, Rāma’s son, had passed away last night. Then it occurred to the Lord: “Uddaka, Rāma’s son, was of great intelligence. If he had heard this dhamma, he would have understood it quickly.”
On the other hand, the fact that the Buddha praises the two in the way that he does counts strongly against any claims that they were of seriously wrong view.
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Re: Recollection of the Devas

Post by Ceisiwr »

Mr Albatross wrote: Mon Aug 09, 2021 11:48 am
On the other hand, the fact that the Buddha praises the two in the way that he does counts strongly against any claims that they were of seriously wrong view.
It supports the hypothesis that they were annihilationists. The Buddha said that the doctrines of the annhilationists were the best of outside ideas. He also said that his two former teachers were the most likely to understand what he has awakened to. It’s quite easy to reach the conclusion that they were the most likely to get it because they had realised the highest attainments of the best non-Dhamma system, i.e. Annihilationism.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Recollection of the Devas

Post by Bundokji »

Ceisiwr wrote: Mon Aug 09, 2021 12:29 pm It supports the hypothesis that they were annihilationists. The Buddha said that the doctrines of the annhilationists were the best of outside ideas. He also said that his two former teachers were the most likely to understand what he has awakened to. It’s quite easy to reach the conclusion that they were the most likely to get it because they had realised the highest attainments of the best non-Dhamma system, i.e. Annihilationism.
I encountered multiple references to this aspect, that annihilationism/nihilism are the best non-dhamma doctrines. Could you please share the sutta or the source that says so?
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
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Re: Recollection of the Devas

Post by Ceisiwr »

Bundokji wrote: Mon Aug 09, 2021 12:42 pm
I encountered multiple references to this aspect, that annihilationism/nihilism are the best non-dhamma doctrines. Could you please share the sutta or the source that says so?
Sure
This is the best of the convictions of outsiders, that is: ‘I might not be, and it might not be mine. I will not be, and it will not be mine.’ When someone has such a view, you can expect that they will be repulsed by continued existence, and they will not be repulsed by the cessation of continued existence. Some sentient beings have such a view. But even the sentient beings who have views like this decay and perish.
https://suttacentral.net/an10.29/en/sujato

The mantra/view being that of the annhilationists, one by which they entered the formless.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Recollection of the Devas

Post by Ceisiwr »

Cause_and_Effect wrote: Mon Aug 09, 2021 11:25 am [However, it wouldn't change my statements on them in this regard.
Even if we go by this definition of annihilationism and we are to think they subscribed to that view, the fact remains that their practices were leading to the two longest lasting deva planes within samsara of the arupa-lokas (I actually think the Pure abodes should be considered the highest planes in samsara since they are irreversibly connected to Nibbana unlike any other realm, but they are traditionally placed below the arupa realms having a shorter lifespan).
So we can speculate as to their motivations and world view but the only thing we can definitively say is that their attainments led there, and that is where they are now.
Yes. They simply reappeared there, so Annihilation wasn’t the answer. They were rightly disgusted by existence, but mistakenly thought there was a self which had to be destroyed. In this sense they were so close to Nibbana. They just had to see there wasn’t a self who suffers to begin with.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
Bundokji
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Re: Recollection of the Devas

Post by Bundokji »

Ceisiwr wrote: Mon Aug 09, 2021 12:46 pm Sure
This is the best of the convictions of outsiders, that is: ‘I might not be, and it might not be mine. I will not be, and it will not be mine.’ When someone has such a view, you can expect that they will be repulsed by continued existence, and they will not be repulsed by the cessation of continued existence. Some sentient beings have such a view. But even the sentient beings who have views like this decay and perish.
https://suttacentral.net/an10.29/en/sujato

The mantra/view being that of the annhilationists, one by which they entered the formless.
Thank you for the reference.

The quoted sutta includes many "bests", but the best of convictions is not compared/contrasted with other convictions. While some sort of criteria/rationale is mentioned as to why these convictions could be best, it leaves a lot of questions unanswered as to how these convictions can motivate actions. For example, denying ownership of future existence might be used to rationalize evil action (as well as taking ownership of it).

Is the criteria of superiority here dictated by what outsiders try to achieve? or by what the Buddha taught?
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
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Re: Recollection of the Devas

Post by Cause_and_Effect »

Mr Albatross wrote: Mon Aug 09, 2021 11:48 am Okay, but "definitively" only for those who trust the commentarial report that the two ascetics were reborn in the heavens of nothingness and neither-perception-nor-non-perception, respectively. For those who trust only the suttas, it's an open question, for nothing is said in them about where they were reborn. We are told only that the Buddha had wanted to teach them first but they died too soon.
Well I should be more specific.
Actually you are partly correct since while Alara Kalama reached the base of nothingness, Udakka Ramaputta is not recorded as attaining the base of neither perception nor non-perception only passing on the method from his father Rama who had attained it. So we don't know if he attained it eventually. While Alara Kalama had attained the base of nothingness I suppose we can't say for sure that he went there after death.

But my point in mentioning them both is simply that the suttas say these two attainments lead to rebirth in these dimensions which are traditionally considered the longest lasting forms of deva existence in Samsara.
Ceisiwr wrote: Mon Aug 09, 2021 12:52 pm
Yes. They simply reappeared there, so Annihilation wasn’t the answer. They were rightly disgusted by existence, but mistakenly thought there was a self which had to be destroyed. In this sense they were so close to Nibbana. They just had to see there wasn’t a self who suffers to begin with.

It is indeed given only as a slight shift to insight practice to attain Nibbana for one who has reached these attainments, which is probably why the ascetic Gotama practiced them on his quest and wanted to teach the way to full liberation to his former teachers as a Buddha.
"Being sustained, Ananda, he is sustained by the supreme sustenance; for this — the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception — is the supreme sustenance. There is [however] the case where a monk, having practiced in this way — 'It should not be, it should not occur to me; it will not be, it will not occur to me. What is, what has come to be, that I abandon' — obtains equanimity. He does not relish that equanimity, does not welcome it, does not remain fastened to it. As he does not relish that equanimity, does not welcome it, does not remain fastened to it, his consciousness is not dependent on it, is not sustained by it (does not cling to it). Without clinging/sustenance, Ananda, a monk is totally unbound."

"It's amazing, lord. It's astounding. For truly, the Blessed One has declared to us the way to cross over the flood by going from one support to the next. But what is the noble liberation?"

"There is the case, Ananda, where a disciple of the noble ones considers this: 'Sensuality here & now; sensuality in lives to come; sensual perceptions here & now; sensual perceptions in lives to come; forms here & now; forms in lives to come; form-perceptions here & now; form-perceptions in lives to come; perceptions of the imperturbable; perceptions of the dimension of nothingness; perceptions of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception: that is an identity, to the extent that there is an identity. This is deathless: the liberation of the mind through lack of clinging/sustenance.'



https://accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn ... .than.html
"Therein monks, that Dimension should be known wherein the eye ceases and the perception of forms fades away...the ear... the nose...the tongue... the body ceases and the perception of touch fades away...

That Dimension should be known wherein mentality ceases and the perception of mind-objects fades away.
That Dimension should be known; that Dimension should be known."


(S. IV. 98) - The Dimension beyond the All
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