the great rebirth debate

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
TRobinson465
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by TRobinson465 »

mjaviem wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 10:03 pm
I mean there is an ultimate right view which possibly might have nothing to do with affirmation and negation of literal rebirth.
Just because ultimate right view doesnt (possibly) have anything to do with rebirth doesnt mean rebirth isnt a right view. It is still a right view, just as belief in kamma, belief in the value of mother and father etc are right views, but perhaps arent really related to whatever "ultimate" right view you're talking about.
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama

"The Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta
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mjaviem
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Re: the great rebirth debate

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TRobinson465 wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 1:29 am Just because ultimate right view doesnt (possibly) have anything to do with rebirth doesnt mean rebirth isnt a right view. It is still a right view, just as belief in kamma, belief in the value of mother and father etc are right views, but perhaps arent really related to whatever "ultimate" right view you're talking about.
All right, I'm not against believing in life after death. When I usually argue is when people say that the Buddha's teaching is about literal rebirth. Then I usually say that it is not, that it's about ending suffering. I usually say that the Buddha does not teach physics and biology and the workings of the world but only the way out of suffering. This teaching is valid whether there is actually life after death and whether there is not. The main point is not making us believe in literal rebirth but people tend to take the teachings as proof that the world functions like this.

Whether you believe in literal rebirth or in the present moment, the teachings are well expounded and help to end suffering.
Namo Tassa Bhagavato Arahato Sammā Sambuddhassa
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zerotime
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by zerotime »

some recent investigation in this issue:

Surviving Death (Reincarnation Episode)
https://1movieshd.com/watch-tv/free-sur ... 64.5511988
TRobinson465
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Re: the great rebirth debate

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mjaviem wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 1:42 am
TRobinson465 wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 1:29 am Just because ultimate right view doesnt (possibly) have anything to do with rebirth doesnt mean rebirth isnt a right view. It is still a right view, just as belief in kamma, belief in the value of mother and father etc are right views, but perhaps arent really related to whatever "ultimate" right view you're talking about.
All right, I'm not against believing in life after death. When I usually argue is when people say that the Buddha's teaching is about literal rebirth. Then I usually say that it is not, that it's about ending suffering. I usually say that the Buddha does not teach physics and biology and the workings of the world but only the way out of suffering. This teaching is valid whether there is actually life after death and whether there is not. The main point is not making us believe in literal rebirth but people tend to take the teachings as proof that the world functions like this.

Whether you believe in literal rebirth or in the present moment, the teachings are well expounded and help to end suffering.
Good to know. I am also not against people not believing in life after death or literal rebirth either. Even Buddhists who do not believe in rebirth I have no problem with. I set aside plenty of teachings in my early Buddhist life so I have no problem with people not accepting or setting aside rebirth as that is a reasonable leeaway and plenty of people in this day and age dont find the teaching beneficial to them anyways. I also agree with you that the Buddha's teaching is about ending suffering. But to say the Buddha did not teach rebirth when he did or that he was waffly about it when he wasnt is a different story.

This isnt the teaching on anatta where you can reasonably argue he didnt affirm or deny the existence of a self and that clinging to the idea that he taught one or the other is detrimental. He was pretty clear cut on rebirth and made it clear it is beneficial for many to believe.
"Now, householders, of those contemplatives & brahmans who hold this doctrine, hold this view — 'There is nothing given, nothing offered, nothing sacrificed. There is no fruit or result of good or bad actions. There is no this world, no next world, no mother, no father, no spontaneously reborn beings; no brahmans or contemplatives who, faring rightly and practicing rightly, proclaim this world and the next after having directly known and realized it for themselves' — it can be expected that, shunning these three skillful activities — good bodily conduct, good verbal conduct, good mental conduct — they will adopt & practice these three unskillful activities: bad bodily conduct, bad verbal conduct, bad mental conduct. Why is that? Because those venerable contemplatives & brahmans do not see, in unskillful activities, the drawbacks, the degradation, and the defilement; nor in skillful activities the rewards of renunciation, resembling cleansing.

"Because there actually is the next world, the view of one who thinks, 'There is no next world' is his wrong view. Because there actually is the next world, when he is resolved that 'There is no next world,' that is his wrong resolve. Because there actually is the next world, when he speaks the statement, 'There is no next world,' that is his wrong speech. Because there actually is the next world, when he says that 'There is no next world,' he makes himself an opponent to those arahants who know the next world. Because there actually is the next world, when he persuades another that 'There is no next world,' that is persuasion in what is not true Dhamma. And in that persuasion in what is not true Dhamma, he exalts himself and disparages others. Whatever good habituation he previously had is abandoned, while bad habituation is manifested. And this wrong view, wrong resolve, wrong speech, opposition to the arahants, persuasion in what is not true Dhamma, exaltation of self, & disparagement of others: These many evil, unskillful activities come into play, in dependence on wrong view.

"With regard to this, an observant person considers thus: 'If there is no next world, then — with the breakup of the body, after death — this venerable person has made himself safe. But if there is the next world, then this venerable person — on the breakup of the body, after death — will reappear in a plane of deprivation, a bad destination, a lower realm, hell. Even if we didn't speak of the next world, and there weren't the true statement of those venerable contemplatives & brahmans, this venerable person is still criticized in the here-&-now by the observant as a person of bad habits & wrong view: [2] one who holds to a doctrine of non-existence.' If there really is a next world, then this venerable person has made a bad throw twice: in that he is criticized by the observant here-&-now, and in that — with the breakup of the body, after death — he will reappear in a plane of deprivation, a bad destination, a lower realm, hell. Thus this safe-bet teaching, when poorly grasped & poorly adopted by him, covers (only) one side, and leaves behind the possibility of the skillful.

"Now, householders, of those contemplatives & brahmans who hold this doctrine, hold this view — 'There is what is given, what is offered, what is sacrificed. There are fruits & results of good & bad actions. There is this world & the next world. There is mother & father. There are spontaneously reborn beings; there are brahmans & contemplatives who, faring rightly & practicing rightly, proclaim this world & the next after having directly known & realized it for themselves' — it can be expected that, shunning these three unskillful activities — bad bodily conduct, bad verbal conduct, bad mental conduct — they will adopt & practice these three skillful activities: good bodily conduct, good verbal conduct, good mental conduct. Why is that? Because those venerable contemplatives & brahmans see in unskillful activities the drawbacks, the degradation, and the defilement; and in skillful activities the rewards of renunciation, resembling cleansing.

"Because there actually is the next world, the view of one who thinks, 'There is a next world' is his right view. Because there actually is the next world, when he is resolved that 'There is a next world,' that is his right resolve. Because there actually is the next world, when he speaks the statement, 'There is a next world,' that is his right speech. Because there actually is the next world, when he says that 'There is a next world,' he doesn't make himself an opponent to those arahants who know the next world. Because there actually is the next world, when he persuades another that 'There is a next world,' that is persuasion in what is true Dhamma. And in that persuasion in what is true Dhamma, he doesn't exalt himself or disparage others. Whatever bad habituation he previously had is abandoned, while good habituation is manifested. And this right view, right resolve, right speech, non-opposition to the arahants, persuasion in what is true Dhamma, non-exaltation of self, & non-disparagement of others: These many skillful activities come into play, in dependence on right view.

"With regard to this, an observant person considers thus: 'If there is the next world, then this venerable person — on the breakup of the body, after death — will reappear in a good destination, a heavenly world. Even if we didn't speak of the next world, and there weren't the true statement of those venerable contemplatives & brahmans, this venerable person is still praised in the here-&-now by the observant as a person of good habits & right view: one who holds to a doctrine of existence.' If there really is a next world, then this venerable person has made a good throw twice, in that he is praised by the observant here-&-now; and in that — with the breakup of the body, after death — he will reappear in a good destination, a heavenly world. Thus this safe-bet teaching, when well grasped & adopted by him, covers both sides, and leaves behind the possibility of the unskillful.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama

"The Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta
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mjaviem
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Re: the great rebirth debate

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Not an objective translation. I read other world instead of next world. Same for the breakup of the kaya. You read the physical body and I read the collection of the five aggregates.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: the great rebirth debate

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mjaviem wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 10:16 am Not an objective translation. I read other world instead of next world. Same for the breakup of the kaya. You read the physical body and I read the collection of the five aggregates.
The form aggregate includes the body.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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mjaviem
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Re: the great rebirth debate

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Ceisiwr wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 11:36 am
mjaviem wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 10:16 am Not an objective translation. I read other world instead of next world. Same for the breakup of the kaya. You read the physical body and I read the collection of the five aggregates.
The form aggregate includes the body.
kāyassa bhedā
bheda: breach; disunion; dissension
The dissolution of the kaya might well not mean the turning into dust of the physical body, as well. Who knows. Without knowing and seeing, then "“Only this is true, anything else is wrong,” is not fitting for me. It's all about studying and practising dhamma.
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Re: the great rebirth debate

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mjaviem wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 12:23 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 11:36 am
mjaviem wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 10:16 am Not an objective translation. I read other world instead of next world. Same for the breakup of the kaya. You read the physical body and I read the collection of the five aggregates.
The form aggregate includes the body.
kāyassa bhedā
bheda: breach; disunion; dissension
The dissolution of the kaya might well not mean the turning into dust of the physical body, as well. Who knows. Without knowing and seeing, then "“Only this is true, anything else is wrong,” is not fitting for me. It's all about studying and practising dhamma.
Seems as of late you simply wish to ignore the obvious.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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mjaviem
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Re: the great rebirth debate

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Ceisiwr wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 2:14 pm Seems as of late you simply wish to ignore the obvious.
I try to avoid wishing, for example wishing to have a next life. Also, it's you, not I, the one who is ignoring one of the two possibilities.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: the great rebirth debate

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mjaviem wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 3:01 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 2:14 pm Seems as of late you simply wish to ignore the obvious.
I try to avoid wishing, for example wishing to have a next life. Also, it's you, not I, the one who is ignoring one of the two possibilities.
If you really understood rebirth then you wouldn’t be wishing for another life. I also used to be you, so I know exactly where you are coming from and the arguments you are relying on.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: the great rebirth debate

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Ceisiwr wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 3:36 pm
mjaviem wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 3:01 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 2:14 pm Seems as of late you simply wish to ignore the obvious.
I try to avoid wishing, for example wishing to have a next life. Also, it's you, not I, the one who is ignoring one of the two possibilities.
If you really understood rebirth then you wouldn’t be wishing for another life. I also used to be you, so I know exactly where you are coming from and the arguments you are relying on.
If you really read his words then you wouldn’t be ascribing him with a desire to be reborn. You used to be him? Was that in a former life?
Like the three marks of conditioned existence, this world in itself is filthy, hostile, and crowded
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Ceisiwr
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Ceisiwr »

Pondera wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 3:58 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 3:36 pm
mjaviem wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 3:01 pm
I try to avoid wishing, for example wishing to have a next life. Also, it's you, not I, the one who is ignoring one of the two possibilities.
If you really understood rebirth then you wouldn’t be wishing for another life. I also used to be you, so I know exactly where you are coming from and the arguments you are relying on.
If you really read his words then you wouldn’t be ascribing him with a desire to be reborn. You used to be him? Was that in a former life?
The “you” there wasn’t directed at him. Saying “I used to be you” is an idiomatic expression in English.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
TRobinson465
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Re: the great rebirth debate

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mjaviem wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 10:16 am Not an objective translation. I read other world instead of next world. Same for the breakup of the kaya. You read the physical body and I read the collection of the five aggregates.
And what is the "other" world? Also. it literally says after "death" (maraṇā) after break up of the body.
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama

"The Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta
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mjaviem
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by mjaviem »

TRobinson465 wrote: Fri May 27, 2022 3:58 am And what is the "other" world?...
A world like this very world we are experiencing now. How similar? Both are disintegrating. The world we are in and the other world are both similar on this. This world and the other world are both worlds (not realized by me but) realized by others by direct knowledge who make them both known to others. Are you and I in the same world? I don't know I haven't realized with direct knowledge what world I am in so how could I tell? But I believe the scriptures, that one can go from one world to the other and back depending on their actions. I also believe that doing no evil is the way to not be afraid of the other world. I believe Ariyas experience the other world where one is headed to release and some of them will not even return to this one. Do you add a factor of delay to the moment when the body finally lies inanimate? I don't know, it could be the thing, it could be not. It seems that what better works for me is understanding in terms of present, understanding that the experience of time is just craving and that we simply live in the present.
TRobinson465 wrote: Fri May 27, 2022 3:58 am ... Also. it literally says after "death" (maraṇā) after break up of the body.
SN 12.2 Bodhi wrote: ... The passing away of the various beings from the various orders of beings, their perishing, breakup, disappearance, mortality, death, completion of time, the breakup of the aggregates, the laying down of the carcass: this is called death...
Yā tesaṁ tesaṁ sattānaṁ tamhā tamhā sattanikāyā cuti cavanatā bhedo antaradhānaṁ maccu maraṇaṁ kālakiriyā khandhānaṁ bhedo kaḷevarassa nikkhepo, idaṁ vuccati maraṇaṁmaraṇa
You can read it as not only when there is a corpse present belonging to a being but also simply when there is the disappearance of being, the dissolution of the khandas, as well. Do the teachings mention corpses and carcasses and boneyards? Yes. Are the teachings about corpses and carcasses and boneyards? I think not, I think it's all about ending suffering. The workings of the world are out of scope and not conducive to liberation. I think dependent origination is not about the creation of an skeleton but about the creation of suffering. When we see death, like when we see or learn of a dead body, and we suffer, we now can suspect this is dependently originated and that this suffering can be put to an end if we stopped being so fouls and so full of desire and ill-will.
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TRobinson465
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Re: the great rebirth debate

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mjaviem wrote: Fri May 27, 2022 2:08 pm ....
Personally I think that's a very convoluted way of understanding things. But interesting way of looking at things I suppose.
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama

"The Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta
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