the great rebirth debate

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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cappuccino
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by cappuccino »

mjaviem wrote: Mon Feb 28, 2022 2:02 am You only need to ask your self
This is annoying
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Rahula
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Rahula »

mjaviem wrote: Sun Feb 27, 2022 8:13 pm
Rahula wrote: Sat Feb 26, 2022 4:26 pm ... we are beings...
This is certainly not the teaching.
Are you referring to Self or No-Self?
If so here is a good reading.
“There is no self.” - “Nope, never said that, either.”—The Buddha
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Rahula
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Re: the great rebirth debate

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mjaviem wrote: Sun Feb 27, 2022 8:13 pm
Rahula wrote: Sat Feb 26, 2022 4:26 pm ...
We are trying to achieve same things life after life. Things that we had achieved in this lifetime will be forgotten by the time we are reborn, hence we are trying to achieve same things again and again. What's the point?
...
Who says this. Rahula?
Yes.
But isn't this there throughout the teaching?
Haven't you found it yet?
If not, look at the big picture, not at my finger!!!
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Rahula
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Rahula »

mjaviem wrote: Sun Feb 27, 2022 8:13 pm
Rahula wrote: Sat Feb 26, 2022 4:26 pm ...
If you don't believe in reberth, what do you believe in?
The Buddha, the Dhamma, and the Noble Sangha.
The Buddha said:

Yo Kho Dhammam passati, So mam passati
Yo mam passati, So Dhammam passati.
-Samyutta Nikaya, Vakkali Sutta

One who SEES the Dhamma - the universal law of nature SEES me and one who SEES me SEES the Dhamma

The Buddha again said:

Apassmano Saddhammam, mam passapi na passati.

If one does not SEE the Sublime Dhamma then he is not SEEING me although he is seeing me (with his eyes).
http://www.buddhanet.net/bvk_study/bvk21b.htm
If someone doesn't see Dhamma, doesn't accept what is been taught,
Can they still say that they believe in Buddha, Dhamma, Sangha ?

So much for the Right View!
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Rahula
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Re: the great rebirth debate

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mjaviem wrote: Sun Feb 27, 2022 8:13 pm
Rahula wrote: Sat Feb 26, 2022 4:26 pm ... many lifetimes called Samsara. That's not a problem if we are doing fine in each lifetime. But the bitter truth is that we are not. We are suffering most of the time. Very rarely do we get a lifetime that we can consider not suffering. When you compare countless number of times that we had born into a lifetime with much suffering to countable times we had a comparatively better life, you realise how pointless is all this.
...
I think those who put rebirth aside would agree with this but would change the word lifetime for the word abiding or something similar not implying bones buried somewhere.
Let's talk about bones...
“The pile of bones of (all the bodies of) one man
Who has alone one aeon lived
Would make a mountain’s height —
So said the mighty seer.”
— ITIVUT’TAKA
How rebirth takes place
https://island.lk/how-rebirth-takes-place-2/
The Filial Piety Sutra
Suddenly they came upon a pile of bones beside the road. The World Honoured One turned to face them, placed his five limbs on the ground, and bowed respectfully.
The Buddha told Ananda, "Although all of you are my foremost disciples and have been members of the Sangha for a long time, you still have not achieved far-reaching understanding. This pile of bones could have belonged to my ancestors from former lives. They could have been my parents in many past lives. That is the reason I now bow to them." The Buddha continued speaking to Ananda, "These bones we are looking at can be divided into two groups. One group is composed of the bones of men, which are heavy and white in color. The other group is composed of the bones of women, which are light and black in color."
http://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/filial-sutra.htm
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mjaviem
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Re: the great rebirth debate

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Rahula wrote: Sat Mar 05, 2022 8:36 pm
mjaviem wrote: Sun Feb 27, 2022 8:13 pm
Rahula wrote: Sat Feb 26, 2022 4:26 pm ... we are beings...
This is certainly not the teaching.
Are you referring to Self or No-Self?
If so here is...
I was referring to the Buddha's teachings:
MN 1 (B. Bodhi) wrote:...
“He perceives beings as beings. Having perceived beings as beings, he conceives beings, he conceives himself in beings, he conceives himself apart from beings, he conceives beings to be ‘mine,’ he delights in beings. Why is that? Because he has not fully understood it, I say.
...
And about your belief in life after death and the texts you use to gain confidence, I'm glad you do. This is probably helpful for you. You are probably progressing in the understanding. Keep posting whenever you find something useful for the discussion as you are doing. I was addressing your questions on how some people can not believe in rebirth yet consider themselves followers of the Buddha.
Namo Tassa Bhagavato Arahato Sammā Sambuddhassa
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Rahula
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Re: the great rebirth debate

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Coëmgenu wrote: Sun Feb 27, 2022 9:33 pm
mjaviem wrote: Sun Feb 27, 2022 8:13 pmI think they believe the Buddha's teaching is not about a repetition of lives through the ages until this can be finished. They probably believe the teaching has a much smaller scope. I think they believe Buddhism is simply about ending the causes that bring suffering (again and again).
Whether we believe in "literal" or "metaphorical" rebirth, we are only "us" once and, to the extent that "we" are "us" at all, that is fraught, tenuous, and ultimately illusory. IMO, a potential point in-common.
Someone one said,
If someone knows what s/he is talking about, s/he will explain it to others in a simple manner, even a complex topic.
But when someone doesn't know what s/he is talking about, s/he explain it in a complex manner, even the simplest topic.
It just came to my mind after reading your comment, apologies if I'm been stupid, which I am, actually.
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Rahula
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Re: the great rebirth debate

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mjaviem wrote: Sat Mar 05, 2022 10:20 pm I was referring to the Buddha's teachings:
MN 1 (B. Bodhi) wrote:...
He perceives beings as beings. Having perceived beings as beings, he conceives beings, he conceives himself in beings, he conceives himself apart from beings, he conceives beings to be ‘mine’, he delights in beings. Why is that? Because he has not fully understood it, I say.
...
And about your belief in life after death and the texts you use to gain confidence, I'm glad you do. This is probably helpful for you. You are probably progressing in the understanding. Keep posting whenever you find something useful for the discussion as you are doing. I was addressing your questions on how some people can not believe in rebirth yet consider themselves followers of the Buddha.
I get the feeling that you are in the No-self pool, pardon me if I'm wrong.
He perceives beings as beings
Does it say, there is no such thing as beings?
The problem here is not knowing beings as beings but conceiving beings to be ‘mine’, delighting in beings.

If he has fully understood it, He directly knows beings as beings but DOESN"T conceive beings to be ‘mine’, DOESN"T delight in beings.
He directly knows beings as beings. Having directly known beings as beings, he does not conceive himself as beings, he does not conceive himself in beings, he does not conceive himself apart from beings, he does not conceive beings to be ‘mine,’ he does not delight in beings. Why is that? Because he is free from delusion through the destruction of delusion.
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Rahula
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Rahula »

Rambutan wrote: Sun Feb 27, 2022 10:07 pm
Rahula wrote: Sat Feb 26, 2022 4:26 pm Something I can't understand is the fact that some people doesn't want to believe in reberth but still believes in Buddhism.
I can’t speak for everybody of course, but in my own experience in talking about rebirth with people who don’t believe in it, it almost always boils down to, one way or another, they are still holding onto the idea that there is some kind of “self” and that they believe this “self” is not reborn. In other words, “I” won’t be reborn as a cat depends on there being some kind of intrinsically existent “I” which is either going to be reborn or not be reborn.

There are those who say that they don’t dispute Buddha’s teaching that no such “I” can be found, and that, yes, we are all just temporary composites. But they don’t see why this would have anything to do with the question of rebirth. “Snow melts away and that’s it”.

The puzzling thing to me is why, then, would one bother with Dharma study and practice at all, considering that any of us might be dead before the Sun sets tonight. Why not just live it up, get a little drunk, and just devote oneself to having a good time?
It's all about the Right View, isn't it?
The first thought came to Buddha's mind after enlightenment was, whether anyone would understand this truth, reality?
It's apparent that most people are struggling, including me, to understand the reality.
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Re: the great rebirth debate

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mjaviem wrote: Mon Feb 28, 2022 1:35 am
Rambutan wrote: Sun Feb 27, 2022 10:07 pm The puzzling thing to me is why, then, would one bother with Dharma study and practice at all, considering that any of us might be dead before the Sun sets tonight. Why not just live it up, get a little drunk, and just devote oneself to having a good time?
Because having a good time is being at peace. Doing wholesome things is a good way of living. Even if the rest of our life is very short and no lives are coming after it.
It might not be for everyone, having a good time is a personal choice, isn't it? You are missing his point.

If you don't care about what happens after death, you are missing the teaching, big time!
JMHO
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Rahula »

cappuccino wrote: Mon Feb 28, 2022 1:44 am
mjaviem wrote: Mon Feb 28, 2022 1:35 am Even if the rest of our life is very short and no lives are coming after it.
life is very short


not enough time to understand Buddhism


even to become aware of Buddhism
We did not start it in this lifetime, we are just continuing it throughout. It's a continues journey.
As far as I know, nobody has achieved it in a single lifetime.
That's how 7 years olds could understand the Dhamma when 60 years olds were still struggling, they had done the homework in their previous lives.
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Re: the great rebirth debate

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Rahula wrote: Sat Mar 05, 2022 11:15 pm I get the feeling that you are in the No-self pool, pardon me if I'm wrong.
He perceives beings as beings
Does it say, there is no such thing as beings?
The problem here is not knowing beings as beings but conceiving beings to be ‘mine’, delighting in beings.

If he has fully understood it, He directly knows beings as beings but DOESN"T conceive beings to be ‘mine’, DOESN"T delight in beings.
...
You need to study the full MN 1 sutta. The problem is conceiving beings. This happens when one does not directly know.
SN 23.2 (Thanissaro) wrote:...
he said to the Blessed One: "'A being,' lord. 'A being,' it's said. To what extent is one said to be 'a being'?"

"Any desire, passion, delight, or craving for form, Radha: when one is caught up[1] there, tied up[2] there, one is said to be 'a being.'[3]

"Any desire, passion, delight, or craving for feeling... perception... fabrications...

"Any desire, passion, delight, or craving for consciousness, Radha: when one is caught up there, tied up there, one is said to be 'a being.'
...
Namo Tassa Bhagavato Arahato Sammā Sambuddhassa
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Re: the great rebirth debate

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Rahula wrote: Sat Mar 05, 2022 11:45 pm
mjaviem wrote: Mon Feb 28, 2022 1:35 am
Rambutan wrote: Sun Feb 27, 2022 10:07 pm The puzzling thing to me is why, then, would one bother with Dharma study and practice at all, considering that any of us might be dead before the Sun sets tonight. Why not just live it up, get a little drunk, and just devote oneself to having a good time?
Because having a good time is being at peace. Doing wholesome things is a good way of living. Even if the rest of our life is very short and no lives are coming after it.
It might not be for everyone, having a good time is a personal choice, isn't it? You are missing his point.

If you don't care about what happens after death, you are missing the teaching, big time!
JMHO
In what way I am missing his point and also the teaching?
Namo Tassa Bhagavato Arahato Sammā Sambuddhassa
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Rahula »

mjaviem wrote: Tue Mar 08, 2022 2:57 am
Rahula wrote: Sat Mar 05, 2022 11:45 pm
mjaviem wrote: Mon Feb 28, 2022 1:35 am
Because having a good time is being at peace. Doing wholesome things is a good way of living. Even if the rest of our life is very short and no lives are coming after it.
It might not be for everyone, having a good time is a personal choice, isn't it? You are missing his point.

If you don't care about what happens after death, you are missing the teaching, big time!
JMHO
In what way I am missing his point and also the teaching?
Living a good wholesome life is not the purpose of Buddhism, its only part of the path.

Cessation of dukka is the purpose.
Cessation of the the cycle of rebirths which causes more suffering is.
Cessation of Samsara is.

If you don't believe in rebirth, how can you achieve that purpose?

People do not want to believe in reberth as they cannot proov it. As they have to get it with faith. They think it is no different than other religious beliefs if they have to get it with faith. They think it's not intelligent enough.

But again, if you are not intelligent enough to understand how the life works in the universe, you have to learn it from someone who understands. Whether you call it faith or something else.

JMHO
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Re: the great rebirth debate

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Rahula wrote: Tue Mar 08, 2022 1:15 pm
Living a good wholesome life is not the purpose of Buddhism, its only part of the path.

Cessation of dukka is the purpose.
Cessation of the the cycle of rebirths which causes more suffering is.
Cessation of Samsara is.

If you don't believe in rebirth, how can you achieve that purpose?

People do not want to believe in reberth as they cannot proov it. As they have to get it with faith. They think it is no different than other religious beliefs if they have to get it with faith. They think it's not intelligent enough.

But again, if you are not intelligent enough to understand how the life works in the universe, you have to learn it from someone who understands. Whether you call it faith or something else.

JMHO
Oh, I see, you don't believe liberation can be achieved in this very lifetime. You don't think the cycle of births happens in the present. You think this topic is a matter of intelligence rather than own understanding. You think the Buddha teaching is about a stream of consciousness, a storage of impressions and dispositions, a gandhabba, relinking consciousness. It is fair enough as well as it is fair to believe the Buddha teaching is not about literal rebirth but ending suffering right here and now.
Namo Tassa Bhagavato Arahato Sammā Sambuddhassa
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