the great rebirth debate

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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Rahula
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Rahula »

mjaviem wrote: Tue Mar 08, 2022 2:18 pm Oh, I see, you don't believe liberation can be achieved in this very lifetime. You don't think the cycle of births happens in the present. You think this topic is a matter of intelligence rather than own understanding. You think the Buddha teaching is about a stream of consciousness, a storage of impressions and dispositions, a gandhabba, relinking consciousness. It is fair enough as well as it is fair to believe the Buddha teaching is not about literal rebirth but ending suffering right here and now.
No my friend, you are wrong on all your assumptions. I'm sorry if I'm not expressing myself clearly.

I believe that Nibbana can be achieved in this lifetime and I'm actively practicing the Noble Eightfold path.
Also I believe the cycle of births happens in the present as well as throughout Samsra.
However I'm not limiting Nibbana to something I can achieve only in this lifetime, I'm following the path as best I can, I believe I will attain it when I'm ready, may be in this lifetime, may be in another lifetime.

I don't think this topic is a matter of intelligence but I believe in own understanding through Sīla, Samādhi, Pannā.

I don't understand what you mean by:
You think the Buddha teaching is about a stream of consciousness, a storage of impressions and dispositions, a gandhabba, relinking consciousness.
I believe that the Buddha's teaching is about ending suffering right here and now, in the present moment.
But I also have the Right View to know that it is not only about present moment or present life.
I can try to achieve NIbbana in present moment, but it is also possible that I may have to go through millions of lifetimes before I gain enough Kusala karma, a type of energy as I believe.
May you be happy, healthy & successful in everything you do! :anjali:
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mjaviem
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by mjaviem »

Rahula wrote: Tue Mar 08, 2022 4:50 pm ... I'm actively practicing the Noble Eightfold path.

... I may have to go through millions of lifetimes before I...
Rahula wrote: Tue Mar 08, 2022 4:50 pm ... I also have the Right View to know that...

... Kusala karma, a type of energy as I believe.
I'm glad you are practising. I'm glad your beliefs bring comfort to you. Keep practising my friend. Keep doing good deeds and developing your mind. Thanks for your reply.
Rahula wrote: Tue Mar 08, 2022 4:50 pm ...
I don't understand what you mean by:
You think the Buddha teaching is about a stream of consciousness, a storage of impressions and dispositions, a gandhabba, relinking consciousness.
...
It's just one of my assumptions about your understanding and your belief on literal rebirth.
Namo Tassa Bhagavato Arahato Sammā Sambuddhassa
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Ceisiwr
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Ceisiwr »

mjaviem wrote: Tue Mar 08, 2022 2:18 pm It is fair enough as well as it is fair to believe the Buddha teaching is not about literal rebirth
That is a distortion of the Dhamma.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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mjaviem
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by mjaviem »

Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Mar 08, 2022 5:16 pm
mjaviem wrote: Tue Mar 08, 2022 2:18 pm It is fair enough as well as it is fair to believe the Buddha teaching is not about literal rebirth
That is a distortion of the Dhamma.
Because you believe...
mjaviem wrote: Tue Mar 08, 2022 2:18 pm ... the Buddha teaching is about a stream of consciousness, a storage of impressions and dispositions, a gandhabba, relinking consciousness...
Right?
Namo Tassa Bhagavato Arahato Sammā Sambuddhassa
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cappuccino
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by cappuccino »

mjaviem wrote: Tue Mar 08, 2022 5:55 pm Right?
[recollecting] There I had such a name, belonged to such a clan, had such an appearance. Such was my food, such my experience of pleasure & pain, such the end of my life. Passing away from that state, I re-arose there.

There too I had such a name, belonged to such a clan, had such an appearance. Such was my food, such my experience of pleasure & pain, such the end of my life. Passing away from that state, I re-arose here …


Susima Sutta: About Susima
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Ceisiwr
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Ceisiwr »

mjaviem wrote: Tue Mar 08, 2022 5:55 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Mar 08, 2022 5:16 pm
mjaviem wrote: Tue Mar 08, 2022 2:18 pm It is fair enough as well as it is fair to believe the Buddha teaching is not about literal rebirth
That is a distortion of the Dhamma.
Because you believe...
mjaviem wrote: Tue Mar 08, 2022 2:18 pm ... the Buddha teaching is about a stream of consciousness, a storage of impressions and dispositions, a gandhabba, relinking consciousness...
Right?
Such things are in the suttas and their parallels, so form part of early Buddhism yes. It’s not a matter of “belief”, just textual analysis.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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mjaviem
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by mjaviem »

Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Mar 08, 2022 6:07 pm Such things are in the suttas and their parallels, so form part of early Buddhism yes. It’s not a matter of “belief”, just textual analysis.
Fair point. Not convinced but fair enough.
cappuccino wrote: Tue Mar 08, 2022 6:04 pm [recollecting] There I had such a name, belonged to such a clan, had such an appearance. Such was my food, such my experience of pleasure & pain, such the end of my life. Passing away from that state, I re-arose there.

There too I had such a name, belonged to such a clan, had such an appearance. Such was my food, such my experience of pleasure & pain, such the end of my life. Passing away from that state, I re-arose here …


Susima Sutta: About Susima
I need to read again Susima sutta because I read exactly the opposite.
Namo Tassa Bhagavato Arahato Sammā Sambuddhassa
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Rambutan
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Rambutan »

Rebirth is continuous because causes and conditions are continuous. Every moment, the previous you is no more, and you are the next you.
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Rebirth is continuous
Rebirth is continuous
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cappuccino
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by cappuccino »

Rambutan wrote: Wed Mar 09, 2022 2:34 pm Every moment, the previous you is no more, and you are the next you.
99% the same
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Rambutan
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Rambutan »

cappuccino wrote: Thu Apr 14, 2022 9:02 pm
Rambutan wrote: Wed Mar 09, 2022 2:34 pm Every moment, the previous you is no more, and you are the next you.
99% the same
Correct. That’s why it seems like a continuous “self”. The conditions (the cause) are nearly identical so the arising (the result) is nearly identical.
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cappuccino
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by cappuccino »

Rambutan wrote: Fri Apr 15, 2022 12:36 pm That’s why it seems like a continuous “self”
It is continuous, not seemingly
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Johncat
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Johncat »

It seems that much of the talk about 'rebirth' and 'linking consciousness' comes from discussions about dependend origination - where many commentators break it into a 'three life' model.

This is what the great teacher Ajahn Buddhadasa says about this issue
(from the preface of his book PAṬICCASAMUPPĀDA: PRACTICAL DEPENDENT ORIGINATION)

'Paṭiccasamuppāda, which is the heart of Buddhism, is difficult to see clearly and, thus,has become the center of grave misunderstandings and distortions. To teach that paṭiccasamuppāda covers three lifetimes is to imply the existence of something that passes from one life to the next.
This implication is contrary to the Buddha’s teaching and, in fact, undermines it
Paṭiccasamuppāda is nothing more than a detailed analysis of suffering, its arising, its ceasing and the way leading to its ceasing. By understanding dependent origination, we see clearly how to practice: mindfulness at the moment of sense contact delivers wisdom and prevents suffering from arising
Correct understanding of paṭiccasamuppāda is important to us because, by showing that the ‘I’ concept arises and passes away dependent on various conditions, it frees us of the wrong view that there is a permanent self. No such self exists, but only the ‘self’ idea, which arises from moment to moment in the mind darkened by ignorance. The ignorant mind is deluded by these momentary arisings and becomes enchanted with the illusion of a permanent self.
'

it is interesting that in the Kalamata Sutta the Buddha uses the conditional word 'if' when talking about the possibility of a physical rebirth after death

"'If there is a world after death, if there is the fruit of actions rightly & wrongly done, then this is the basis by which, with the break-up of the body, after death, I will reappear in a good destination, the heavenly world.'

"'But if there is no world after death, if there is no fruit of actions rightly & wrongly done, then here in the present life I look after myself with ease — free from hostility, free from ill will, free from trouble.'

Happy Easter and Metta to everyone on the noble path to salvation :heart:
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Aloka
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Aloka »

Ajahn Buddhadasa's "Annata and Rebirth" is worth reading, if I haven't already mentioned it before in this lengthy topic!

https://www.buddhismwithoutboundaries.c ... nd-Rebirth


:anjali:
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Johncat
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Johncat »

Happy Easter - which is all about rebirth isnt it?
I'd love to share some wonderful words of one of the greatest Bhikkhus in recent history - Ajahn Chah a forest monk from Northern Thailand.

an excerpt from 'The collected teachings of Ajahn Chah'

Here he talks about the immediacy of rebirth as taught by the Buddha as Paticca Samupadda. As with Ajahn Buddhadasa (see my previous post) the Ven Ajahn Chah (foremost a meditator rather than a scholar) teaches us to see 'rebirth' and dependent origination as a moment to moment 'this lifetime' occurence rather than over many lives - where it would not be fruitful in the practical erradication of kilesa and dukkha in the here and now.

'We don’t understand the Dhamma and so we don’t understand these ‘saṅkhārā’; we take them to be ourselves, as belonging to us or belonging to others. This gives rise to clinging. When clinging arises, ‘becoming’ follows. Once becoming arises, then there is birth. Once there is birth, then old age, sickness, death … the whole mass of suffering arises. This is the paṭiccasamuppāda.1 We say ignorance gives rise to volitional activities, they give rise to consciousness and so on. All these things are simply events in the mind. When we come into contact with something we don’t like, if we don’t have mindfulness, ignorance is there. Suffering arises straight away. But the mind passes through these changes so rapidly that we can’t keep up with them. It’s the same as when you fall from a tree. Before you know it – ‘Thud!’ – you’ve hit the ground. Actually you’ve passed many branches and twigs on the way, but you couldn’t count them, you couldn’t remember them as you passed them. You just fall, and then ‘Thud!’ The paṭiccasamuppāda is the same as this. If we divide it up as it is in the scriptures, we say ignorance gives rise to volitional activities, volitional activities give rise to consciousness, consciousness gives rise to mind and matter, mind and matter give rise to the six sense bases, the sense bases give rise to sense contact, contact gives rise to feeling, feeling gives rise to wanting, wanting gives rise to clinging, clinging gives rise to becoming, becoming gives rise to birth, birth gives rise to old age, sickness, death, and all forms of sorrow. But in truth, when you come into contact with something you don’t like, there’s immediate suffering! That feeling of suffering is actually the result of the whole chain of the paṭiccasamuppāda[. This is why the Buddha exhorted his disciples to investigate and know fully their own minds.'

1 paṭicca-samuppāda: Dependent co-arising; dependent origination; the description of the arising and ceasing of the five khandhas

M :heart: etta to all practicioners of the dhamma
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Johncat
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Johncat »

Thanks Aloka,

I've just read that lecture by Ajahn Buddhadasa. Wow - he does cut through any doubt about the 'three lifetime' version that many monks and others try and teach. I have always reflected on the teaching of dependent origination as a companion to the practice of Satipatthana and something that can be apprehended and understood in this very life.

When i first heard discussion about the 3 life model I immediately thought - how can this be applicable to eliminating suffering now? By contemplating the four foundations of mindfulness and applying right effort to maintain wholesome states and dispel unwholesome ones -dependent origination can become a practical and useful tool for understanding the dhamma.

metta JC :heart:
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