the great rebirth debate

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
wenjaforever
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by wenjaforever »

This is the work of Mara the evil one, division, confusion and distraction. Wrong view.
money is worthless toilet paper • the tongue has no bone (a person might say one thing but it cannot be further from the truth) • you cannot teach a goat math as in you cannot teach the dhamma to a dumb person
Joe.c
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Joe.c »

This dhamma is fun for wise people. Wise people can do the investigation and weed off all the fake dhamma.

While not wise people will be "reborn" over and over due to not hear & understand the true dhamma.

As Buddha said on AN 8.30 to Ven. Anuruddha:
(1) This Dhamma is for one with few wishes, not for one with many wishes.
(2) This Dhamma is for one who is happy, not for one who is not happy.
(3) This Dhamma is for one who resorts to seclusion, not for one who delights in company of people.
(4) This Dhamma is for one who is energetic, not for one who is lazy.
(5) This Dhamma is for one with remember introspection (sati) established, not for one who is forget introspection.
(6) This Dhamma is for one who is balanced (equilibrium - samadhi), not for one who is unbalanced (not in equilibrium).
(7) This Dhamma is for one who is wise, not for one who is not wise.
(8) This Dhamma is for one who delights in non-proliferation, who takes delight in non-proliferation; not for one who delights in proliferation, who takes delight in proliferation.
May you be relax, happy, comfortable and free of dukkhas from hearing true dhamma.
May you gain unshakable confidence in Buddha, Dhamma and (Ariya) Sangha.
Learn about Buddha/Dhamma Characters.
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Aloka
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Aloka »

wenjaforever wrote: Fri May 27, 2022 10:39 pm This is the work of Mara the evil one, division, confusion and distraction. Wrong view.
Nonsense, forget "views" and just relax.....


:meditate:
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NotMe
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by NotMe »

Aloka wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 2:18 pm
wenjaforever wrote: Fri May 27, 2022 10:39 pm This is the work of Mara the evil one, division, confusion and distraction. Wrong view.
Nonsense, forget "views" and just relax.....


:meditate:
All but Right View of course.

Metta

:anjali:
Ontheway
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Ontheway »

NotMe wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 2:30 pm
Aloka wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 2:18 pm
wenjaforever wrote: Fri May 27, 2022 10:39 pm This is the work of Mara the evil one, division, confusion and distraction. Wrong view.
Nonsense, forget "views" and just relax.....


:meditate:
All but Right View of course.

Metta

:anjali:
:goodpost:
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
blightmaster
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by blightmaster »

Joe.c wrote: Sat May 28, 2022 12:59 am
(3) This Dhamma is for one who resorts to seclusion, not for one who delights in company of people.

(5) This Dhamma is for one with remember introspection (sati) established, not for one who is forget introspection.
(3) This dhamma is for one who is brave who has no problem to walk alone, not for one who is a coward who hides behind the sangha in an information era and who love to have many friends and followers by deceiving them and is amoral and will do whatever it takes to have a great mass following, and is delighted in lies and counterfeit

(5) This dhamma is for one with insight and is truthful, not for one who is dumb and wicked

:anjali:
you're not a shape shifter, you're a mindless ghoul in previous life and you will fall again • those who draw the sword die by the sword, but oh wait you're too lame to even use a sword
SecretSage
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by SecretSage »

I believe in literal rebirth as taught by Theravada.

The five destinations:
“Sāriputta, there are these five destinations. What are the five? Hell, the animal realm, the realm of ghosts, human beings, and devas" (MN 12)
I also believe that the vast majority of people go to hell, the animal realm, or the realm of ghosts after death as stated in in the Pansu suttas SN 56.102-113 .

Birth as a human is extremely rare and usually more pleasant than other births. The majority of people are probably going to hell, the animal realm, or the realm of ghosts after death...they generate bad kamma ceaselessly without thinking of it as anything bad.

I also think that it wouldn't be that difficult to scientifically prove but that not that interested I'm more interested with achieving arahantship here and now.

Wrong views automatically disappear when someone goes closer to the jhanas and arahantship.
"You yourselves must strive; the Buddhas only point the way"
confusedsoso
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Is there any proof of reincarnation? I find it hard to believe in it.

Post by confusedsoso »

Is there any proof of reincarnation? I find it hard to believe in it.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Is there any proof of reincarnation? I find it hard to believe in it.

Post by Ceisiwr »

confusedsoso wrote: Sat Jun 03, 2023 8:20 pm Is there any proof of reincarnation? I find it hard to believe in it.
Ian Stevenson and his successor Jim Tucker have written books on cases suggestive of it as has Ven. Analaylo. They aren’t anything definitive though. I too initially found it hard to accept rebirth. For a lot of people these days it’s something that just comes with time and practice.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
SarathW
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Re: Is there any proof of reincarnation? I find it hard to believe in it.

Post by SarathW »

What Buddhism teaches is Bhava.
You change every moment. Just see how you have changed from a child to an adult.
Also, consider that you move overseas or to a different town by yourself.
Now imagine you do not have a body too and you forgot your past.

It is complex and we will never know.
Buddha adviced us not to spend time on the past and the future.
Path opens when you are in the present moment.
:shrug:
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
dharmacorps
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Re: Is there any proof of reincarnation? I find it hard to believe in it.

Post by dharmacorps »

Then don't believe it. Buddhism isn't a belief contest and nobody needs to convince you if you aren't interested.
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mjaviem
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Re: Is there any proof of reincarnation? I find it hard to believe in it.

Post by mjaviem »

confusedsoso wrote: Sat Jun 03, 2023 8:20 pm Is there any proof of reincarnation? I find it hard to believe in it.
You don't need proof of rebirth. You only need confidence in the Buddha.

For mundane people like us who still have greed and ill will within, and are delusional about what's going on, the Buddha spoke of one understanding that is correct. You must understand as follows for your own good and the good of anyone else.
MN 117 Bodhi wrote:... ‘There is what is given and what is offered and what is sacrificed; there is fruit and result of good and bad actions; there is this world and the other world; there is mother and father; there are beings who are reborn spontaneously; there are in the world good and virtuous recluses and brahmins who have realised for themselves by direct knowledge and declare this world and the other world.’...
Be wise and at least, about someone who has it wrong and thus conducts himself wrongly, consider thus:
MN 60 Bodhi wrote:... ‘If there is no other world, then on the dissolution of the body this good person will have made himself safe enough. But if there is another world, then on the dissolution of the body, after death, he will reappear in a state of deprivation, in an unhappy destination, in perdition, even in hell. Now whether or not the word of those good recluses and brahmins is true, let me assume that there is no other world: still this good person is here and now censured by the wise as an immoral person, one of wrong view who holds the doctrine of nihilism. But on the other hand, if there is another world, then this good person has made an unlucky throw on both counts: since he is censured by the wise here and now, and since on the dissolution of the body, after death, he will reappear in a state of deprivation, in an unhappy destination, in perdition, even in hell. He has wrongly accepted and undertaken this incontrovertible teaching in such a way that it extends only to one side and excludes the wholesome alternative.’...
Namo Tassa Bhagavato Arahato Sammā Sambuddhassa
TRobinson465
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Re: Is there any proof of reincarnation? I find it hard to believe in it.

Post by TRobinson465 »

It's not solid proof but there are records of some kids being able to recall thier past lives and people corroborating their claims (theres an item in this house that belonged to their former self, etc.)

It's pretty weak evidence but it is evidence. Other than that. The only way to prove it is by getting abhinna powers yourself or dying yourself. But if you consider the Buddha legit and considering he said rebirth is real. It's reasonable to also just take it on faith without needing Harvard graphs and peer reviewed studies for everything
Last edited by TRobinson465 on Wed Jun 07, 2023 9:53 pm, edited 2 times in total.
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama

"The Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta
confusedsoso
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Re: Is there any proof of reincarnation? I find it hard to believe in it.

Post by confusedsoso »

TRobinson465 wrote: Wed Jun 07, 2023 9:50 pm It's not solid proof but there are records of some kids being able to recall thier past lives and people corroborating their claims (theres an item in this house that belonged to their former self, etc.)

It's pretty weak evidence but it is evidence. Other than that. The only way to prove it is by getting abhinna powers yourself or dying yourself. But if you consider the Buddha legit and considering he said rebirth is real. It's reasonable to also just take it on faith without needing Harvard graphs and peer reviewed studies for everything
I find reincarnation to be like believing in an almighty god. Its just hard to believe without any proof. Maybe there is some power that we humans cant see. I dunno.
SarathW
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Re: Is there any proof of reincarnation? I find it hard to believe in it.

Post by SarathW »

In my opinion, the belief in rebirth is a mundane right view.
I wonder whether belief in rebirth is not applicable when you have the supermundane right view.
I have created a new thread to discuss this matter.

viewtopic.php?t=45495
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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