the great rebirth debate

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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Rambutan
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Rambutan »

asahi wrote: Thu Feb 03, 2022 12:00 pm
Rambutan wrote: Wed Feb 02, 2022 4:02 am
cappuccino wrote: Wed Feb 02, 2022 3:53 am

the next life must be us, at least in part


rather than a mere clone
It’s the same mind stream. Mind stream, like a river stream. Just as there is nothing permanent in a river stream, there is nothing that can be found that can be called a permanent self. Each moment of consciousness provides the basis for the next to arise. Each moment of consciousness is the cause for the next one, and each moment of consciousness is the result of the previous one. If this were not the case, there would be no functioning of karmic cause and result.
The processes is not a linear one . Cause n effect does not function in a linear way .
1. Please explain
2. Also, how does that relate to rebirth?
asahi
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by asahi »

Rambutan wrote: Thu Feb 03, 2022 12:52 pm
asahi wrote: Thu Feb 03, 2022 12:00 pm
Rambutan wrote: Wed Feb 02, 2022 4:02 am

It’s the same mind stream. Mind stream, like a river stream. Just as there is nothing permanent in a river stream, there is nothing that can be found that can be called a permanent self. Each moment of consciousness provides the basis for the next to arise. Each moment of consciousness is the cause for the next one, and each moment of consciousness is the result of the previous one. If this were not the case, there would be no functioning of karmic cause and result.
The processes is not a linear one . Cause n effect does not function in a linear way .
1. Please explain
2. Also, how does that relate to rebirth?
You are taking every happening and thinking in a linear line . You are taking the mind stream functioning as a unified unit and flows in a linear line . But that is not the case . For example , say now you plant a seed on the ground , if the seed do not have enough water it probably not going to sprout . Then you need a fertile ground , enough sunlight etc . A seed alone doesnt necessitate by itself that constitute a plant or tree to blossom . Everything that happening today in your life , is not the causes for next moment and tomorrow or future but only plays a role of part and parcel conditions in the process .
The future rebirth not only depends on previous life kamma but also present state conditions such as present mind state and present life overall kamma .
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Rambutan
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Rambutan »

asahi wrote: Thu Feb 03, 2022 3:01 pm
Rambutan wrote: Thu Feb 03, 2022 12:52 pm
asahi wrote: Thu Feb 03, 2022 12:00 pm

The processes is not a linear one . Cause n effect does not function in a linear way .
1. Please explain
2. Also, how does that relate to rebirth?
You are taking every happening and thinking in a linear line . You are taking the mind stream functioning as a unified unit and flows in a linear line . But that is not the case . For example , say now you plant a seed on the ground , if the seed do not have enough water it probably not going to sprout . Then you need a fertile ground , enough sunlight etc . A seed alone doesnt necessitate by itself that constitute a plant or tree to blossom . Everything that happening today in your life , is not the causes for next moment and tomorrow or future but only plays a role of part and parcel conditions in the process .
The future rebirth not only depends on previous life kamma but also present state conditions such as present mind state and present life overall kamma .
Oh yes. I understand that.
“Linear” is probably not the correct word.
I think you mean “conditional”.

Mind / karma is linear (following a single line) in terms of individual mindstream. Even if my actions have multiple effects, each of those effects follows a line, like a single chain of events.

But yes, you are correct that there are infinite conditions that produce the reality of any single moment.

This is also why there is no “self” that is reborn.
If enough causes are the same, the next result will be the same. This is why a person looks the same now as they did 5 minutes ago: most of the conditions are the same. But in 60 years, most of those conditions will be different than they are now, and that person will look different. The changes are occurring constantly, with each breath, with every heartbeat. We just don’t see it change so slowly, so the experience we imagine is that there is the same, constant “me” in the world.
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Rahula
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Rahula »

Something I can't understand is the fact that some people doesn't want to believe in reberth but still believes in Buddhism.

Isn't Buddhism all about stopping the cycle of rebirth or reincarnation called Samsara. If someone doesn't want to believe or care about reincarnation, why would they even believe in Buddhism. How can anyone who believes in Buddhism doesn't believe in the most important aspect of the teaching.

As far as I can understand, the main teaching of the great teacher is that we are beings going through many lifetimes called Samsara. That's not a problem if we are doing fine in each lifetime. But the bitter truth is that we are not. We are suffering most of the time. Very rarely do we get a lifetime that we can consider not suffering. When you compare countless number of times that we had born into a lifetime with much suffering to countable times we had a comparatively better life, you realise how pointless is all this.

We are trying to achieve same things life after life. Things that we had achieved in this lifetime will be forgotten by the time we are reborn, hence we are trying to achieve same things again and again. What's the point?

Prince Siddhartha wanted to find a way to beat death and achieve immortality. But he discovered that it is an impossibility. He looked for a solution and discovered that the only way to stop suffering is to stop rebirth.
Not only that, the great teacher had learnt that countless more Buddha's had discovered the same.

Isn't this the wisdom that we get from Buddhism?

If you don't believe in reberth, what do you believe in?
May you be happy, healthy & successful in everything you do! :anjali:
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Re: the great rebirth debate

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Rahula wrote: Sat Feb 26, 2022 4:26 pm Something I can't understand is the fact that some people doesn't want to believe in reberth but still believes in Buddhism.

Isn't Buddhism all about stopping the cycle of rebirth or reincarnation called Samsara. If someone doesn't want to believe or care about reincarnation, why would they even believe in Buddhism. How can anyone who believes in Buddhism doesn't believe in the most important aspect of the teaching.
I agree, it does seem strange, especially those that vociferously argue that the Buddha didn't teach literal rebirth. Perhaps they like the meditation and other teachings of Buddhism for the benefits in the here-and-now, for the tranquility. Or perhaps they are just setting it aside for now, something they might be willing to accept at a later date with more insight or understanding.
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Rahula »

DNS wrote: Sat Feb 26, 2022 5:07 pm
Rahula wrote: Sat Feb 26, 2022 4:26 pm Something I can't understand is the fact that some people doesn't want to believe in reberth but still believes in Buddhism.

Isn't Buddhism all about stopping the cycle of rebirth or reincarnation called Samsara. If someone doesn't want to believe or care about reincarnation, why would they even believe in Buddhism. How can anyone who believes in Buddhism doesn't believe in the most important aspect of the teaching.
I agree, it does seem strange, especially those that vociferously argue that the Buddha didn't teach literal rebirth. Perhaps they like the meditation and other teachings of Buddhism for the benefits in the here-and-now, for the tranquility. Or perhaps they are just setting it aside for now, something they might be willing to accept at a later date with more insight or understanding.
Or something they might be willing to accept at a later reberth, when they gain wisdom.

Maybe we also spent a lifetime just like that, before coming to this understanding.

Thanks for the reply.
May you be happy, healthy & successful in everything you do! :anjali:
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Re: the great rebirth debate

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Rahula wrote: Sat Feb 26, 2022 4:26 pm Something I can't understand is the fact that some people doesn't want to believe in reberth but still believes in Buddhism.

Isn't Buddhism all about stopping the cycle of rebirth or reincarnation called Samsara. If someone doesn't want to believe or care about reincarnation, why would they even believe in Buddhism. How can anyone who believes in Buddhism doesn't believe in the most important aspect of the teaching.

As far as I can understand, the main teaching of the great teacher is that we are beings going through many lifetimes called Samsara. That's not a problem if we are doing fine in each lifetime. But the bitter truth is that we are not. We are suffering most of the time. Very rarely do we get a lifetime that we can consider not suffering. When you compare countless number of times that we had born into a lifetime with much suffering to countable times we had a comparatively better life, you realise how pointless is all this.
You are absolutely right, and I like your phrase "why believe/follow Buddhism yet deny rebirth".

The whole point is to stop rebirth (which leads to more dukkha, sometimes excruciatingly so). If there is one life, than "parinibbana" is easy and one doesn't need to do anything to make it happen.
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by mjaviem »

Rahula wrote: Sat Feb 26, 2022 4:26 pm Something I can't understand is the fact that some people doesn't want to believe in reberth but still believes in Buddhism.

Isn't Buddhism all about stopping the cycle of rebirth or reincarnation called Samsara. If someone doesn't want to believe or care about reincarnation, why would they even believe in Buddhism. How can anyone who believes in Buddhism doesn't believe in the most important aspect of the teaching.

...
I think they believe the Buddha's teaching is not about a repetition of lives through the ages until this can be finished. They probably believe the teaching has a much smaller scope. I think they believe Buddhism is simply about ending the causes that bring suffering (again and again). Describing the workings of the world and predicting its outcomes is not part of the teaching in their view. So I guess they still think to be followers of the Buddha even putting the belief on a cycle of rebirth of many many lives aside, as, (IMO) in their view, this is not conducive to the goal.
Rahula wrote: Sat Feb 26, 2022 4:26 pm ... we are beings...
This is certainly not the teaching.
Rahula wrote: Sat Feb 26, 2022 4:26 pm ... many lifetimes called Samsara. That's not a problem if we are doing fine in each lifetime. But the bitter truth is that we are not. We are suffering most of the time. Very rarely do we get a lifetime that we can consider not suffering. When you compare countless number of times that we had born into a lifetime with much suffering to countable times we had a comparatively better life, you realise how pointless is all this.
...
I think those who put rebirth aside would agree with this but would change the word lifetime for the word abiding or something similar not implying bones buried somewhere.
Rahula wrote: Sat Feb 26, 2022 4:26 pm ...

We are trying to achieve same things life after life. Things that we had achieved in this lifetime will be forgotten by the time we are reborn, hence we are trying to achieve same things again and again. What's the point?

...
Who says this. Rahula?
Rahula wrote: Sat Feb 26, 2022 4:26 pm ...
If you don't believe in reberth, what do you believe in?
The Buddha, the Dhamma, and the Noble Sangha.
Namo Tassa Bhagavato Arahato Sammā Sambuddhassa
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Re: the great rebirth debate

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mjaviem wrote: Sun Feb 27, 2022 8:13 pm I think those who put rebirth aside would agree with this but would change the word lifetime for the word abiding or something similar not implying bones buried somewhere.
Regarding bones buried somewhere, the Buddha said:
From an inconstruable beginning comes transmigration. A beginning point is not evident, though beings hindered by ignorance and fettered by craving are transmigrating & wandering on. Long have you thus experienced stress, experienced pain, experienced loss, swelling the cemeteries — enough to become disenchanted with all fabricated things, enough to become dispassionate, enough to be released."
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Coëmgenu »

mjaviem wrote: Sun Feb 27, 2022 8:13 pmI think they believe the Buddha's teaching is not about a repetition of lives through the ages until this can be finished. They probably believe the teaching has a much smaller scope. I think they believe Buddhism is simply about ending the causes that bring suffering (again and again).
Whether we believe in "literal" or "metaphorical" rebirth, we are only "us" once and, to the extent that "we" are "us" at all, that is fraught, tenuous, and ultimately illusory. IMO, a potential point in-common.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Rambutan »

mjaviem wrote: Sun Feb 27, 2022 8:13 pm
Rahula wrote: Sat Feb 26, 2022 4:26 pm Something I can't understand is the fact that some people doesn't want to believe in reberth but still believes in Buddhism.
I can’t speak for everybody of course, but in my own experience in talking about rebirth with people who don’t believe in it, it almost always boils down to, one way or another, they are still holding onto the idea that there is some kind of “self” and that they believe this “self” is not reborn. In other words, “I” won’t be reborn as a cat depends on there being some kind of intrinsically existent “I” which is either going to be reborn or not be reborn.

There are those who say that they don’t dispute Buddha’s teaching that no such “I” can be found, and that, yes, we are all just temporary composites. But they don’t see why this would have anything to do with the question of rebirth. “Snow melts away and that’s it”.

The puzzling thing to me is why, then, would one bother with Dharma study and practice at all, considering that any of us might be dead before the Sun sets tonight. Why not just live it up, get a little drunk, and just devote oneself to having a good time?
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Rahula »

Alex123 wrote: Sun Feb 27, 2022 11:45 am
Rahula wrote: Sat Feb 26, 2022 4:26 pm Something I can't understand is the fact that some people doesn't want to believe in reberth but still believes in Buddhism.

Isn't Buddhism all about stopping the cycle of rebirth or reincarnation called Samsara. If someone doesn't want to believe or care about reincarnation, why would they even believe in Buddhism. How can anyone who believes in Buddhism doesn't believe in the most important aspect of the teaching.

As far as I can understand, the main teaching of the great teacher is that we are beings going through many lifetimes called Samsara. That's not a problem if we are doing fine in each lifetime. But the bitter truth is that we are not. We are suffering most of the time. Very rarely do we get a lifetime that we can consider not suffering. When you compare countless number of times that we had born into a lifetime with much suffering to countable times we had a comparatively better life, you realise how pointless is all this.
You are absolutely right, and I like your phrase "why believe/follow Buddhism yet deny rebirth".

The whole point is to stop rebirth (which leads to more dukkha, sometimes excruciatingly so). If there is one life, than "parinibbana" is easy and one doesn't need to do anything to make it happen.
Exactly, that is my point of view as well.
It's all about stopping Samsara.

If it's difficult to find a being that was not our mother in a previous life, do you need any other explanation. How deep is that teaching along.

Thanks for your reply.
May you be happy, healthy & successful in everything you do! :anjali:
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by mjaviem »

Rambutan wrote: Sun Feb 27, 2022 10:07 pm
mjaviem wrote: Sun Feb 27, 2022 8:13 pm
Rahula wrote: Sat Feb 26, 2022 4:26 pm Something I can't understand is the fact that some people doesn't want to believe in reberth but still believes in Buddhism.
...
The puzzling thing to me is why, then, would one bother with Dharma study and practice at all, considering that any of us might be dead before the Sun sets tonight. Why not just live it up, get a little drunk, and just devote oneself to having a good time?
Because having a good time is being at peace. Doing wholesome things is a good way of living. Even if the rest of our life is very short and no lives are coming after it.
Namo Tassa Bhagavato Arahato Sammā Sambuddhassa
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by cappuccino »

mjaviem wrote: Mon Feb 28, 2022 1:35 am Even if the rest of our life is very short and no lives are coming after it.
life is very short


not enough time to understand Buddhism


even to become aware of Buddhism
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by mjaviem »

cappuccino wrote: Mon Feb 28, 2022 1:44 am
mjaviem wrote: Mon Feb 28, 2022 1:35 am Even if the rest of our life is very short and no lives are coming after it.
life is very short


not enough time to understand Buddhism


even to become aware of Buddhism
You only need to attend to the Blessed One's instructions. You only need to ask your self " ‘Are there any evil, unskillful mental qualities unabandoned by me that would be an obstruction for me were I to die during the day/night?’ " Then you would "put forth extra desire, effort, diligence, endeavor, undivided mindfulness, & alertness for the abandoning of those very same evil, unskillful qualities" as if your head were in fire. (AN 6.20)
Namo Tassa Bhagavato Arahato Sammā Sambuddhassa
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