the great rebirth debate

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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Bhikkhu Pesala
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala »

Johncat wrote: Sun Apr 17, 2022 7:55 amWhen i first heard discussion about the 3 life model I immediately thought - how can this be applicable to eliminating suffering now?
  1. When afflicted by an apparent injustice, the three life model helps us to reflect: “Though, to my knowledge, I did nothing whatsoever in this life to warrant having this misfortune happening to me. No doubt, in a previous life I committed some evil deed to harm others, which has just born fruit in this very life. Therefore, it makes no sense to seek revenge on the perpetrator, which would only create fresh unwholesome kamma to bear fruit as suffering again in the future.” Hatred is conquered by love.
  2. Although there seems to be a perfect opportunity here for me to do unwholesome deeds without getting punished for them in this life, in future existences I will have to reap the results. Therefore, I should restrain my mental defilements and abstain from these unwholesome deeds. Besides, even though others may not know what I did, I myself will know about it, and will always fear the disclosure of my evil deeds in the future. Therefore, to renounce a short-term gain for my long-term happiness is the wisest course of action.
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retrofuturist
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,

I see no reason to wait for "future lifetimes" to know the effects of kamma. If the fruit of kamma is portrayed as something that only happens in future lives, then we put the potential for actually seeing and knowing kamma beyond our reach. To do so is to downgrade kamma to an article of blind faith.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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mjaviem
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by mjaviem »

Both, believers of life after death and that the Buddha taught life after death as well as agnostics about the topic that think the Teachings are not concerned to explain this, we all need to understand that we are heirs to our actions, that good and bad actions have consequences. We need to understand that there is another world and also that there is birth without apparent cause. Anyone not understanding this is understanding wrongly. IMO
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Aloka
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Aloka »

retrofuturist wrote: Sun Apr 17, 2022 10:06 am Greetings,

I see no reason to wait for "future lifetimes" to know the effects of kamma. If the fruit of kamma is portrayed as something that only happens in future lives, then we put the potential for actually seeing and knowing kamma beyond our reach. To do so is to downgrade kamma to an article of blind faith.

Metta,
Paul. :)

:goodpost:

.
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by cappuccino »

retrofuturist wrote: Sun Apr 17, 2022 10:06 am I see no reason to wait for "future lifetimes" to know the effects of kamma.
Addhakasi, for example … referred to a fully liberated senior nun as a prostitute. As a result of that wrong speech, she was reborn in one of the lower realms …

Inspiration from Enlightened Nuns
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by mikenz66 »

retrofuturist wrote: Sun Apr 17, 2022 10:06 am Greetings,

I see no reason to wait for "future lifetimes" to know the effects of kamma. If the fruit of kamma is portrayed as something that only happens in future lives, then we put the potential for actually seeing and knowing kamma beyond our reach. To do so is to downgrade kamma to an article of blind faith.

Metta,
Paul. :)
Am I missing something? I understood that understanding the fruits of kamma in detail was something that only a Buddha could do. See, for example, AN4.77 https://suttacentral.net/an4.77/. The teachings on Kamma in the suttas appear to be along that lines that Bhikkhu Pesala has presented, not about personally understanding the details.

There are, in fact, many contemplations in the suttas that are not about personal, instantaneous, experience. Contemplation of death is usually done while one is still quite healthy. And there are many things that are taken on faith, such as the effectiveness of the whole project to eliminate suffering....
“Good, good, Sāriputta! There are those who have not known or seen or understood or realized or experienced this with wisdom. They may rely on faith in this matter. ...
https://suttacentral.net/sn48.44
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Mike,
mikenz66 wrote: Sun Apr 17, 2022 10:53 pm Am I missing something? I understood that understanding the fruits of kamma in detail was something that only a Buddha could do. See, for example, AN4.77 https://suttacentral.net/an4.77/.
Correct, the precise workings out of kamma can only be known to a Buddha. Hence why trying to guess how some circumstance might line up to some unseen, arbitrary and unconnected cause, would lead only to vexation, and/or superstitious thinking.
mikenz66 wrote: Sun Apr 17, 2022 10:53 pmThe teachings on Kamma in the suttas appear to be along that lines that Bhikkhu Pesala has presented, not about personally understanding the details.
So, according to you, the Buddha doesn't teach kamma, other than as something that only he can know? If so, indeed, you are missing something, most notably Suttas like AN 6.63...
AN 6.63 wrote:"'Kamma should be known. The cause by which kamma comes into play should be known. The diversity in kamma should be known. The result of kamma should be known. The cessation of kamma should be known. The path of practice leading to the cessation of kamma should be known.' Thus it has been said. Why was it said?

"Intention, I tell you, is kamma. Intending, one does kamma by way of body, speech, & intellect.

"And what is the cause by which kamma comes into play? Contact...

"And what is the diversity in kamma? There is kamma to be experienced in hell, kamma to be experienced in the realm of common animals, kamma to be experienced in the realm of the hungry shades, kamma to be experienced in the human world, kamma to be experienced in the heavenly worlds. [In the Buddhist cosmology, sojourns in hell or in heaven, as in the other realms, are not eternal. After the force of one's kamma leading to rebirth in those levels has worn out, one is reborn elsewhere.]...

"And what is the result of kamma? The result of kamma is of three sorts, I tell you: that which arises right here & now, that which arises later [in this lifetime], and that which arises following that...

"And what is the cessation of kamma? From the cessation of contact is the cessation of kamma; and just this noble eightfold path — right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration — is the path of practice leading to the cessation of kamma.

"Now when a noble disciple discerns kamma in this way, the cause by which kamma comes into play in this way, the diversity of kamma in this way, the result of kamma in this way, the cessation of kamma in this way, & the path of practice leading to the cessation of kamma in this way, then he discerns this penetrative holy life as the cessation of kamma
mikenz66 wrote: Sun Apr 17, 2022 10:53 pm
“Good, good, Sāriputta! There are those who have not known or seen or understood or realized or experienced this with wisdom. They may rely on faith in this matter. ...
https://suttacentral.net/sn48.44
Faith is indeed an alternative to knowing. Yet, did the Buddha say kamma should be known? The Dhamma is more than something arbitrary to have faith in.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Bundokji »

Maybe one of the benefits of the three lives model is that it could help the practitioner to take the practice to more advanced levels than trying to fix his/her own existence. Those who do not spend much time using the dhamma for therapeutic purposes must have done good kamma in their past lives to advance in meditation.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by DNS »

Regarding DO and the 1 life vs 3 life model, we have a poll and long thread here:
viewtopic.php?t=31708

IIRC, it was either Bhikkhu Bodhi or Thanissaro who said something like it doesn't have to be one or the other; it can be both and they made a good argument for that.
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Re: the great rebirth debate

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retrofuturist wrote: Sun Apr 17, 2022 10:06 am Greetings,

I see no reason to wait for "future lifetimes" to know the effects of kamma. If the fruit of kamma is portrayed as something that only happens in future lives, then we put the potential for actually seeing and knowing kamma beyond our reach. To do so is to downgrade kamma to an article of blind faith.

Metta,
Paul. :)
When this was said, Sīha the general said to the Blessed One: “Bhante, I do not go by faith in the Blessed One concerning those four directly visible fruits of giving declared by him. I know them, too. For I am a donor, a munificent giver, and I am dear and agreeable to many people. I am a donor, a munificent giver, and many good persons resort to me. I am a donor, a munificent giver, and I have acquired a good reputation as a donor, sponsor, and supporter of the Saṅgha. I am a donor, a munificent giver, and whatever assembly I approach—whether of khattiyas, brahmins, householders, or ascetics—I approach it confidently and composed. I do not go by faith in the Blessed One concerning these four directly visible fruits of giving declared by him. I know them, too. But when the Blessed One tells me: ‘Sīha, with the breakup of the body, after death, a donor, a munificent giver, is reborn in a good destination, in a heavenly world,’ I do not know this, and here I go by faith in the Blessed One.”

“So it is, Sīha, so it is! With the breakup of the body, after death, a donor, a munificent giver, is reborn in a good destination, in a heavenly world.”


https://suttacentral.net/an5.34/en/bodh ... ight=false

I think it’s worth remembering that even Arahants still have faith in the Buddha.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by mikenz66 »

retrofuturist wrote: Sun Apr 17, 2022 11:02 pm Greetings Mike,
mikenz66 wrote: Sun Apr 17, 2022 10:53 pm Am I missing something? I understood that understanding the fruits of kamma in detail was something that only a Buddha could do. See, for example, AN4.77 https://suttacentral.net/an4.77/.
Correct, the precise workings out of kamma can only be known to a Buddha. Hence why trying to guess how some circumstance might line up to some unseen, arbitrary and unconnected cause, would lead only to vexation.
Exactly my point. That's a useful sutta though:
https://suttacentral.net/an6.63/en/suja ... ript=latin

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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by mikenz66 »

DNS wrote: Sun Apr 17, 2022 11:53 pm Regarding DO and the 1 life vs 3 life model, we have a poll and long thread here:
viewtopic.php?t=31708

IIRC, it was either Bhikkhu Bodhi or Thanissaro who said something like it doesn't have to be one or the other; it can be both and they made a good argument for that.
There is plenty about different interpretations from various teachers and ancients. For example, here I give some links to Ven Analayo's discussion on how Theravada and other sects had both a three-lives and a one-mind-moment interpretation co-existing in their texts and commentaries:
viewtopic.php?t=30940

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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Joe.c »

If Buddha taught Kamma and birth mechanic mundanely, i bet no one can truly understand it. Hence there is abhidhamma that mention that, even though they also got it wrong. :-)

It is about sanna (perception/sensation), how one can change this sanna.

Most human perception resonate between kamasanna, byapadasanna, vihiṁsāsaññā.

If you can switch these perceptions to rupasanna (jhana), other sanna that Buddha mention in sutta, then you can use it to understand the teaching. But you need good morality to support it.

No need to wait for 3 life or 1 life.
May you be relax, happy, comfortable and free of dukkhas from hearing true dhamma.
May you gain unshakable confidence in Buddha, Dhamma and (Ariya) Sangha.
Learn about Buddha/Dhamma Characters.
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Re: the great rebirth debate

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Ceisiwr wrote: Mon Apr 18, 2022 12:08 am
retrofuturist wrote: Sun Apr 17, 2022 10:06 am Greetings,

I see no reason to wait for "future lifetimes" to know the effects of kamma. If the fruit of kamma is portrayed as something that only happens in future lives, then we put the potential for actually seeing and knowing kamma beyond our reach. To do so is to downgrade kamma to an article of blind faith.

Metta,
Paul. :)
When this was said, Sīha the general said to the Blessed One: “Bhante, I do not go by faith in the Blessed One concerning those four directly visible fruits of giving declared by him. I know them, too. For I am a donor, a munificent giver, and I am dear and agreeable to many people. I am a donor, a munificent giver, and many good persons resort to me. I am a donor, a munificent giver, and I have acquired a good reputation as a donor, sponsor, and supporter of the Saṅgha. I am a donor, a munificent giver, and whatever assembly I approach—whether of khattiyas, brahmins, householders, or ascetics—I approach it confidently and composed. I do not go by faith in the Blessed One concerning these four directly visible fruits of giving declared by him. I know them, too. But when the Blessed One tells me: ‘Sīha, with the breakup of the body, after death, a donor, a munificent giver, is reborn in a good destination, in a heavenly world,’ I do not know this, and here I go by faith in the Blessed One.”

“So it is, Sīha, so it is! With the breakup of the body, after death, a donor, a munificent giver, is reborn in a good destination, in a heavenly world.”


https://suttacentral.net/an5.34/en/bodh ... ight=false

I think it’s worth remembering that even Arahants still have faith in the Buddha.
Nice sutta quote. Thanks for sharing.
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

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Bhikkhu Pesala
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala »

Why, monks, dependent on what purpose, should: ‘I am the owner of my kamma, the heir of my kamma, born from my kamma, I have kamma as my relatives, and kamma is my only refuge; whatever kamma I will do — for good or for ill — of that I will become the heir,’ be constantly recollected by a woman or a man, by a householder or by one gone forth? There are beings, monks, who perform bodily, verbal, and mental misconduct. If they constantly recollect [that they are the owners of their kamma] they will abandon all misconduct or it will become weaker. Monks, dependent on this purpose should ‘I am the owner of my kamma, the heir of my kamma, born from my kamma, I have kamma as my relatives, and kamma is my only refuge; whatever kamma I will do — for good or for ill — of that I will become the heir,’ be constantly recollected by a woman or a man, by a householder or by one gone forth.

Facts for Constant Recollection
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