Akusala dhamma sutta

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mjaviem
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Akusala dhamma sutta

Post by mjaviem »

SN 45.22 | B. Bodhi wrote: At Savatthī. “Bhikkhus, I will teach you unwholesome states and wholesome states. Listen to that….

“And what, bhikkhus, are unwholesome states? They are: wrong view … wrong concentration. These are called unwholesome states.

“And what, bhikkhus, are wholesome states? They are: right view … right concentration. These are called wholesome states.”
This is a sutta to listen to. In this sutta the Buddha explains what are unwholesome states.

It seems that whenever we have wrong view, that's an unwhole state. Whenever we have wrong intentions, those are unwholesome states. Whenever we are engaged in wrong speech, this is an unwholesome state too. Wrong actions? Wrong livelihood? Those are unwholesome states. Whenever we are engaged in wrong effort, wrong mindfulness and wrong concentration these are also unwholesome states.

And what do we do about them? You may agree that the answer is we exert right effort.
SN 45.8 | B. Bodhi wrote: ... Here, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu generates desire for the nonarising of unarisen evil unwholesome states; he makes an effort, arouses energy, applies his mind, and strives. He generates desire for the abandoning of arisen evil unwholesome states[; he makes an effort, arouses energy, applies his mind, and strives]….
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circuit
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Re: Akusala dhamma sutta

Post by circuit »

agree, to abandone unwholesome ideas and to exert right effort for supporting the 3 trainings , is a good walk.
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Re: Akusala dhamma sutta

Post by mjaviem »

circuit wrote: Thu Aug 12, 2021 12:56 am agree, to abandone unwholesome ideas and to exert right effort for supporting the 3 trainings , is a good walk.
Not only ideas as in wrong view but all the other "wrong factors" as well. For example being a drug dealer, this is an unwholesome state/quality or for example doing wrong meditation if I'm correct this is also an unwholesome state/quality.
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Re: Akusala dhamma sutta

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I don't know what there is of unwholesome about emotions such as sadness, disgust, and fear. I don't know either what unwholesome mind states are. But I wouldn't consider emotions to be unwholesome states.

These emotions seem clearly related to suffering and the practice to freedom from suffering includes abandoning unwholesome states. If we notice we are suffering and we are sad, disgusted or frighten I think what we do is what we should be doing all the time: Abandon ill-will, abandon any harm we might be doing, and any intentions of harm and ill-will, and we stick to our intention of renunciation. We also generate desire of speaking and acting rightly. These are a few of many things we can do about. it. And we keep at it, never forgetting.
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mjaviem
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Re: Akusala dhamma sutta

Post by mjaviem »

Alino wrote: Sat Apr 09, 2022 10:18 am
Ajahn Jayasāro wrote:...
In daily life we must be flexible and adapt appropriately to the challenges and opportunities offered by each situation we find ourselves in. Here, 'wholesome and unwholesome' mental states covers the entire spectrum of virtues and defilements. Our effort might be, for example, to guard against anger in a difficult conversation, or to cultivate right speach.

In meditation practice, we choose our environment and the object of focus. Here, 'unwholesome mental states' refers more specifically to the five hindrances (nivārana) 'wholesome mental states' to the seven enlightenment factors (bojjhanga).
...
It is wholesome and unwholesome states, not mental states. This is what I'm referring to.

Mental states lead to think for example of sadness, surprise, or embarrassment. And this is not the point. We are not taught here to assess these emotions and abandon them or cultivate them accordingly. If we use mental states then clarifications need to be made as the ones the venerable had to make here.

On the contrary, if we talk about states alone, wholesome and unwholesome states, we can think that our meditation has to be correct, that we need to develop mindfulness, that we should not harm or intend to harm, that we need to have right view and no doubts, that we need to stop trading harmful things if this were the case, etc.
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mjaviem
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Re: Akusala dhamma sutta

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But this sutta treats longing and dejection as unwholesome states.
AN 4.14 Bodhi wrote:... “And what, bhikkhus, is striving by restraint? Here, having seen a form with the eye, a bhikkhu does not grasp its marks and features. Since, if he left the eye faculty unrestrained, bad unwholesome states of longing and dejection might invade him, he practices restraint over it, he guards the eye faculty, he undertakes the restraint of the eye faculty...

... Katamañca, bhikkhave, saṁvarappadhānaṁ? Idha, bhikkhave, bhikkhu cakkhunā rūpaṁ disvā na nimittaggāhī hoti nānubyañjanaggāhī. Yatvādhikaraṇamenaṁ cakkhundriyaṁ asaṁvutaṁ viharantaṁ abhijjhādomanassā pāpakā akusalā dhammā anvāssaveyyuṁ, tassa saṁvarāya paṭipajjati, rakkhati cakkhundriyaṁ, cakkhundriye saṁvaraṁ āpajjati...
Does it mean I'm wrong? Or is it that longing and dejection are perhaps wrong view? Or is it that they are wrong intention? Wrong speech maybe? Wrong action, livelihood, effort, mindfulness, concentration? How longing and dejection can be akusalā dhammā?
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Re: Akusala dhamma sutta

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At least we know longing and dejection in regard to the world are specifically to be removed for the four establishments of mindfulness.
AN 2.274 B. Bodhi wrote: “Bhikkhus, for direct knowledge of lust, four things are to be developed. What four? (1) Here, a bhikkhu dwells contemplating the body in the body, ardent, clearly comprehending, mindful, having removed longing and dejection in regard to the world. (2) He dwells contemplating feelings in feelings … (3) … mind in mind … (4) … phenomena in phenomena, ardent, clearly comprehending, mindful, having removed longing and dejection in regard to the world. For direct knowledge of lust, these four things are to be developed.

So it seems the unwholesome states of longing and dejection (or perhaps covetousness and displeasure as a better translation) are not unwholesome "mental" states like any other.

Anyway, I still can't see how "longing and dejection" or "covetousness and displeasure" relate to the unwholesome (wrong view, wrong intention, ..., wrong samạdhi) and this thread is almost like a monologue so far :tongue:
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Re: Akusala dhamma sutta

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And now I think that covetousness and displeasure for things is wrong intention, thus an unwholesome state as per SN 45.8 in the OP.
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asahi
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Re: Akusala dhamma sutta

Post by asahi »

Greed and illwill both are unwholesome .
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Re: Akusala dhamma sutta

Post by mjaviem »

asahi wrote: Wed Jul 20, 2022 4:11 am Greed and illwill both are unwholesome .
Yes, I understand no covetousness and no ill will as right intention, a factor of the path, a wholesome dhamma.

Right view is another factor of the path, another wholesome dhamma.

Freedom from greed/covetousness (anabhijjhālu) and ill will (abyāpannacitto) together with right view are mental purity, like this:
AN 3.121 Thanissaro wrote:...
“And what is mental purity? There is the case where a certain person is one who is not covetous, is one whose mind is devoid of ill will, and is one with right view. This is called mental purity.
...
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Akusala dhamma sutta

Post by Ceisiwr »

mjaviem wrote: Wed Jul 20, 2022 2:04 am And now I think that covetousness and displeasure for things is wrong intention, thus an unwholesome state as per SN 45.8 in the OP.
It’s talking about the first two hindrances.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Akusala dhamma sutta

Post by mjaviem »

Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Jul 20, 2022 4:39 pm
mjaviem wrote: Wed Jul 20, 2022 2:04 am And now I think that covetousness and displeasure for things is wrong intention, thus an unwholesome state as per SN 45.8 in the OP.
It’s talking about the first two hindrances.
I agree it's talking about sensual desire and ill will. Can you explain why are they akusala dhamma? My explanation is that the intention of sensual desire and the intention of ill will are wrong intention and wrong intention is akusala dhamma.
MN 117 B. Bodhi wrote:...
“And what, bhikkhus, is wrong intention? The intention of sensual desire (Kāmasankappo), the intention of ill will (byāpādasankappo), and the intention of cruelty (vihiṁsāsankappo): this is wrong intention.
...
SN 45.22 | B. Bodhi wrote: ...
“And what, bhikkhus, are unwholesome states? They are: … wrong intention... These are called unwholesome states.
...
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Re: Akusala dhamma sutta

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I've always wondered "Why can the users of this forum that are believers in theravada not simply practice what they believe in?" "Why do they continue to seek confirmation by other forum users who - according to their doctrine - very likely are simply ordinary persons no different from their own ordinariness.
I don't understand this phenomenon.
Cleared. αδόξαστος.
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Re: Akusala dhamma sutta

Post by mjaviem »

SteRo wrote: Wed Jul 20, 2022 7:40 pm I've always wondered "Why can the users of this forum that are believers in theravada not simply practice what they believe in?" "Why do they continue to seek confirmation by other forum users who - according to their doctrine - very likely are simply ordinary persons no different from their own ordinariness.
I don't understand this phenomenon.
Discussing Dhamma is part of the practice. It builds right view.
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Re: Akusala dhamma sutta

Post by SteRo »

mjaviem wrote: Wed Jul 20, 2022 7:48 pm
SteRo wrote: Wed Jul 20, 2022 7:40 pm I've always wondered "Why can the users of this forum that are believers in theravada not simply practice what they believe in?" "Why do they continue to seek confirmation by other forum users who - according to their doctrine - very likely are simply ordinary persons no different from their own ordinariness.
I don't understand this phenomenon.
Discussing Dhamma is part of the practice. It builds right view.
Ah, the blind discussing with the blind attain right view throught that :lol:
Cleared. αδόξαστος.
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