Importance of atta and rebirth in meditation

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Meditation, e.g. meditation postures, developing a regular sitting practice, skillfully relating to difficulties and hindrances, etc.
auto
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Re: Importance of atta and rebirth in meditation

Post by auto »

atipattoh wrote: Tue Aug 17, 2021 4:09 pm The second part that Annihilation view is wrong because it takes (misleading) literal scheme of the (31) plain of existence as reference, only sees anuloma, without patiloma in the contraction mode.
i might be retarded since i don' t know and don't see why patiloma and anuloma are relevant. And i have no attention spawn to follow focus on many things in one post.
You are ignoring one annihilationist can refute another annihilationist by telling there is more subtle being.
atipattoh wrote: Tue Aug 17, 2021 7:48 amAnnihilation view says that there is ‘this self' (ayaṁ attā), but no attā that go beyond. There is a breaking off of attā, nirattā.
The second part that Annihilation view is wrong because it takes literal scheme of the plain of existence as reference, only sees anuloma, without patiloma in the contraction mode.
what is the point bringing in any further options if either i don't get the fundamentals or you.

And if that matters, then i have hindu "nothing to do with budhism" meditation method. It is rudimentary enough to not require self theories other than focusing upon oneself(atta) which is ridiculously downplayed by budhists noselfers, add here buddhist grammar boys who say it is reflexive pronoun(perhaps correct in their topic what discusses grammar only).
atipattoh
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Re: Importance of atta and rebirth in meditation

Post by atipattoh »

auto wrote: Tue Aug 17, 2021 6:22 pm
atipattoh wrote: Tue Aug 17, 2021 4:09 pm The second part that Annihilation view is wrong because it takes (misleading) literal scheme of the (31) plain of existence as reference, only sees anuloma, without patiloma in the contraction mode.
i might be retarded since i don' t know and don't see why patiloma and anuloma are relevant. And i have no attention spawn to follow focus on many things in one post.
You are ignoring one annihilationist can refute another annihilationist by telling there is more subtle being.
I merely pointing out to you that when you speak of annihilation, you are constraining yourself in view 51. Even though view 57 refutes view 56, it is still wrong view.
And, nope, i did not ignore that! That is precisely the allowance in anuloma, but not in patiloma.

How is it not relevant when the Buddha himself declare that anuloma and patiloma attainments are supreme?
auto wrote: Tue Aug 17, 2021 6:22 pm what is the point bringing in any further options if either i don't get the fundamentals or you.

And if that matters, then i have hindu "nothing to do with budhism" meditation method. It is rudimentary enough to not require self theories other than focusing upon oneself(atta) which is ridiculously downplayed by budhists noselfers
I'm aware that there are users in this forum call it Hindu practice, but is it?
AN 9.42 Tapussasutta wrote: With the Householder Tapussa
But when I had entered into and withdrawn from these nine progressive meditative attainments in both forward (order) and reverse mode, I announced my supreme perfect awakening in this world with its gods, Māras, and Brahmās, this population with its ascetics and brahmins, its gods and humans.

imā nava anupubbavihārasamāpattiyo evaṁ anulomapaṭilomaṁ samāpajjimpi vuṭṭhahimpi, athāhaṁ, ānanda, sadevake loke samārake sabrahmake sassamaṇabrāhmaṇiyā pajāya sadevamanussāya ‘anuttaraṁ sammāsambodhiṁ abhisambuddho’
In order to not to get confused with other religious practice, Buddhist identify further anuloma and patiloma attainments with separate names, without loosing it's flavor and more directly express the practice within. Emptiness released for anuloma, Signless release for patiloma. Unshakable released for (anuloma, patiloma).
auto
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Re: Importance of atta and rebirth in meditation

Post by auto »

atipattoh wrote: Wed Aug 18, 2021 2:38 am I merely pointing out to you that when you speak of annihilation, you are constraining yourself in view 51. Even though view 57 refutes view 56, it is still wrong view.
And, nope, i did not ignore that! That is precisely the allowance in anuloma, but not in patiloma.
Look at this,
The beings(atta) what are annihilated or the atta what attains nibbana are views what are based on the origin and passing away of the six bases of contact,
https://suttacentral.net/dn1/en/bodhi wrote:“When, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu understands as they really are the origin and passing away of the six bases of contact, their satisfaction, unsatisfactoriness, and the escape from them, then he understands what transcends all these views.
I get that there are six bases of contact instead of an atta. That the atta there is due have not understood the origin and passing away of the six bases of contact.
It seem the view of 'there is no self to begin with' denies there are six bases of contact.
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further read if want
atipattoh wrote: Wed Aug 18, 2021 2:38 am How is it not relevant when the Buddha himself declare that anuloma and patiloma attainments are supreme?
I post mn44 to show i know where to get the info about the ascending and descending order,
https://suttacentral.net/mn44/en/horner wrote:“Friend Visākha, when a monk is attaining the stopping of perception and feeling, activity of speech is stopped first, then activity of body, then activity of mind.”

“Friend Visākha, when a monk is emerging from the attainment of the stopping of perception and feeling, activity of mind arises first, then activity of body, then activity of speech.”
but the more important matter is the above which is about some people denying the sense of self by thinking it is not sense of self.
look this example of denial,
Zenny wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 12:35 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 12:31 pm
Zenny wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 12:27 pm

I am an atta. Every feeling is my atta. Its here,wherever I am. I experienced it with feelings which are mine. An atta is an individual nexus of feelings and will. I've experienced nothing else all my life. How's that for empirical?!
If I experience pain, which is a feeling, where is the atta in that? If feeling is atta then millions of different attas would rise and fall per day (if not more). How is that a self? If the atta is experiencing the feeling, then it isn’t feeling. So, what then is this atta? Personally I’ve experienced the concept of a self, but like the Buddha and Hume when I partake in an investigation of experience i can’t find anything which corresponds with the concept.
You are the feeling. Its yours. That is the atta. You can have several feelings at once,all unified by being YOURS. The feelings are the self. Different states of the self.
To me and most others it's self evident,and always is and has been,and will be.
How can one start understand what transcends six fields of contact when can't see the arising and passing away of the beings? also then what one does afterwards when notice beings arising and passing away.
asahi
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Re: Importance of atta and rebirth in meditation

Post by asahi »

Sense of self is feeling .
No bashing No gossiping
Zenny
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Re: Importance of atta and rebirth in meditation

Post by Zenny »

asahi wrote: Wed Aug 18, 2021 3:38 pm Sense of self is feeling .
Yes. And feelings are real. Life is feelings.
Non buddhist Zen Practitioner.
Focus!
atipattoh
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Re: Importance of atta and rebirth in meditation

Post by atipattoh »

auto wrote: Wed Aug 18, 2021 2:34 pm I post mn44 to show i know where to get the info about the ascending and descending order
That is not what is AN9.42 is about. MN44 is already in space domain.

Sense of self is a perception, the ideation in mind base that the mind consciousness cognises. It perceives. Sense does not means feeling here. Your sense of self refers to your perception of the collection of characteristics that define you.

Another eg.:
sense of humour: a personality that gives someone the ability to say funny things and see the funny side of things.

It is a person's ability to perceive humour or appreciate a joke. And a person here is a being, it is not atta.
auto
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Re: Importance of atta and rebirth in meditation

Post by auto »

atipattoh wrote: Thu Aug 19, 2021 6:05 am
auto wrote: Wed Aug 18, 2021 2:34 pm I post mn44 to show i know where to get the info about the ascending and descending order
That is not what is AN9.42 is about. MN44 is already in space domain.
Ok, i get it now
you mean an9.41,
https://suttacentral.net/an9.41/en/sujato wrote:As long as I hadn’t entered into and withdrawn from these nine progressive meditative attainments in both forward and reverse order, I didn’t announce my supreme perfect awakening in this world with its gods, Māras, and Brahmās, this population with its ascetics and brahmins, its gods and humans.
It seem the forward order is about getting the mind eager for jhāna, seeing the santa(peace) for jhāna as its gratification.
The reverse order is when the jhāna affliction is assailing, here seeing the impermanence of jhāna as its drawback.

Both cases entail cessation of defilement in progressive meditative attainments. OK, i see how annihilationism is doing only the drawback part. And eternalism only the gratification part.
Thanks learned again.
atipattoh
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Re: Importance of atta and rebirth in meditation

Post by atipattoh »

auto wrote: Thu Aug 19, 2021 2:38 pm Ok, i get it now
you mean an9.41,
Thanks for pointing out, my fat finger :)
auto wrote: Thu Aug 19, 2021 2:38 pm It seem the forward order is about getting the mind "eager" for jhāna, seeing the santa(peace) for jhāna as its gratification.
You can say that, when you look at anuloma pre-RupaJhana.
Commentary stay away from the coarse arupa that is practice by other ascetic, by replacing with simile of the bee -vitakkavicara (in space), (consciousness experiencing) piti while running towards the pond and sukha (in nothingness domain) after drinking water.

The emptiness released is the anuloma within arupa domains post-rupaJhana
auto wrote: Thu Aug 19, 2021 2:38 pm The reverse order is when the jhāna affliction is assailing, here seeing the impermanence of jhāna as its drawback.
Yes, when you combine RupaJhana with anuloma ArupaJhana and then patiloma ArupaJhana. The whole sets of suttas near to this one, compile the whole frameworks of the practice.
auto wrote: Thu Aug 19, 2021 2:38 pm Both cases entail cessation of defilement in progressive meditative attainments. OK, i see how annihilationism is doing only the drawback part. And eternalism only the gratification part.
Thanks learned again.
If you feel comfortable with the understanding, that's good. Continue to explore!

Have a nice day.
~~ metta ~~~
auto
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Re: Importance of atta and rebirth in meditation

Post by auto »

atipattoh wrote: Fri Aug 20, 2021 2:59 am You can say that, when you look at anuloma pre-RupaJhana.
Commentary stay away from the coarse arupa that is practice by other ascetic, by replacing with simile of the bee -vitakkavicara (in space), (consciousness experiencing) piti while running towards the pond and sukha (in nothingness domain) after drinking water.

The emptiness released is the anuloma within arupa domains post-rupaJhana
It remind me something.
I noticed āyatana is translated as emptiness/voidness by some.
Surangama wrote:The state of the Great Arhat
‘Further, ânanda, the region above the top of the realm of
form is divided into two paths. If the renouncing minds of
these devas create (transcendental) wisdom, the light of
which is perfectly penetrating, they will leap over saüsàra to
become Arhats (later) to enter the Bodhisattva state. They
are called Great Arhats whose minds are turned towards
Mahàyàna.
The four heavens beyond form
1. ‘On the other hand, if after acquiring a renouncing mind,
they relinquish this achievement and feel that their bodies
are no longer obstructive, they will remove all obstacles to
enter the void. This is the heaven of boundless emptiness
(âkà÷ànantyàyatana).
The "transcendental wisdom" is paññā and the "renouncing mind" is its function. Comparing the above quote with Sutta mn44.
Paññā is required for to understand that the manoviññāṇa is freed from the āyatana(sense organ and its object) and manoviññāṇa knows formless realm.
It is the above function what the Surangama Sutra mentions of giving up by not turning the mind towards the function and thus going for the formless realms instead of becoming a being whos mind is intent on awakening(bodhisatta).

That said, now i get more connection what it means by the function(kiriyā) mentioned in Abhidhammattha - Sangaha. That is the point where free-will(votthapana consciousness) can be used.
auto
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Re: Importance of atta and rebirth in meditation

Post by auto »

Here's a Sutta,
https://suttacentral.net/sn2.8/en/sujato?layout=sidebyside&reference=main&notes=asterisk&highlight=false&script=latin#2.3 wrote: A sage who doesn’t give up sensual pleasures
Nappahāya munī kāme,

is not reborn in a unified state.
nekattamupapajjati.
rebirth(upapajjati) and atta shown in a positive light

In 1st jhana is the term upasampajja
https://suttacentral.net/sn40.1/en/sujato?layout=sidebyside&reference=main&notes=asterisk&highlight=false&script=latin#2.5 wrote:‘It’s when a mendicant, quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unskillful qualities, enters and remains in the first absorption, which has the rapture and bliss born of seclusion, while placing the mind and keeping it connected.
‘idha bhikkhu vivicceva kāmehi vivicca akusalehi dhammehi savitakkaṁ savicāraṁ vivekajaṁ pītisukhaṁ paṭhamaṁ jhānaṁ upasampajja viharati.
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