Importance of atta and rebirth in meditation

[auto]

here's the reference that the rebirth is required for concentration,

“Sir, in what caste were you born?”
“kiṁjacco bhavan”ti?

“Don’t ask about birth, ask about conduct;
“Mā jātiṁ puccha caraṇañca puccha,
for any wood can surely generate fire.
Kaṭṭhā have jāyati jātavedo;

here's the reference to attabhava, also the 'externals' could refer to sakkaya(identity)

“When you’re kindling the wood, brahmin,
“Mā brāhmaṇa dāru samādahāno,
don’t imagine this is purity, for it’s just an external.
Suddhiṁ amaññi bahiddhā hi etaṁ;
Experts say that those who wish for purity
Na hi tena suddhiṁ kusalā vadanti,
through externals will not find it.
Yo bāhirena parisuddhimicche.

I’ve given up kindling firewood, brahmin,
Hitvā ahaṁ brāhmaṇa dārudāhaṁ,
now I just light the inner flame.
Ajjhattamevujjalayāmi jotiṁ;

conceit(some call it ego or I) is not the synonym to atta as some like to enforce this view. I would think atta is what will be attabhava and if it is well tamed then it becomes inner(ajjhatta) flame(look up the above quote)

Conceit, brahmin, is the burden of your possessions,
Māno hi te brāhmaṇa khāribhāro,
anger your smoke, and lies your ashes.
Kodho dhumo bhasmani mosavajjaṁ;
The tongue is the ladle and the heart the fire altar;
Jivhā sujā hadayaṁ jotiṭhānaṁ,
a well-tamed self is a person’s light.
Attā sudanto purisassa joti.

[DiamondNgXZ]

Your title seems very different from the sutta you quoted.

Anyway, the only importance is just for right view, for the eventual vipassana insight meditation. People can certainly start to meditate first, then learn more right view. It's only with full right view that meditation becomes right samadhi (along with the other 6 right path factors)

Rebirth can also be seen as important so as not to waste time, because of the dangers of samsara, the need to end rebirth.

Usually, we use anatta, not self, no self, no soul instead of atta. I hope you're not attached to the wrong view that there's a self.

Ultimate view: there's no self.

Self is only a conventional speech.

[auto]

Your title seems very different from the sutta you quoted.

There is an explanation on top of Sutta quotes - brief explanations meant for raise implications.

Anyway, the only importance is just for right view, for the eventual vipassana insight meditation. People can certainly start to meditate first, then learn more right view. It's only with full right view that meditation becomes right samadhi (along with the other 6 right path factors)

Concentration is development of mind. Development is a means of transmigrating in form and formless realms.

Rebirth can also be seen as important so as not to waste time, because of the dangers of samsara, the need to end rebirth.

The Sutta says don't ask about rebirth ask about conduct, it implies development of mind. The mind is concentration.
Then Sutta says "for any wood can surely generate fire" it implies a conduct, whatever the conduct is there is a result(fire). Result is a rebirth.

Usually, we use anatta, not self, no self, no soul instead of atta. I hope you're not attached to the wrong view that there's a self.
Ultimate view: there's no self.
Self is only a conventional speech.

Sutta says "a well-tamed self is a person’s light". It could imply a destiny, atta is ones own gati. It is a soul what person's has.

[DiamondNgXZ]

Sutta says "a well-tamed self is a person’s light". It could imply a destiny, atta is ones own gati. It is a soul what person's has.

Ok, so has other people in the forum talked to you about your wrong views about souls yet? Or are you still using soul as in conventional terminology, that is, soul is also impermanent, suffering and not self? I wanna judge if it is worth it to engage with you on this or you're too stubborn to drop wrong views.

[auto]

Sutta says "a well-tamed self is a person’s light". It could imply a destiny, atta is ones own gati. It is a soul what person's has.

Ok, so has other people in the forum talked to you about your wrong views about souls yet? Or are you still using soul as in conventional terminology, that is, soul is also impermanent, suffering and not self? I wanna judge if it is worth it to engage with you on this or you're too stubborn to drop wrong views.

yes many years of no-selfer brainwashing hasn't worked on me. I don't see why i deserve to be called stubborn or the view i have is called wrong view.

[Spiny Norman]

Sutta says "a well-tamed self is a person’s light". It could imply a destiny, atta is ones own gati. It is a soul what person's has.

Ok, so has other people in the forum talked to you about your wrong views about souls yet? Or are you still using soul as in conventional terminology, that is, soul is also impermanent, suffering and not self? I wanna judge if it is worth it to engage with you on this or you're too stubborn to drop wrong views.

yes many years of no-selfer brainwashing hasn't worked on me. I don't see why i deserve to be called stubborn or the view i have is called wrong view.

I sympathise, but a Buddhist forum is perhaps not the best place to pursue this.

[Ceisiwr]

Sutta says "a well-tamed self is a person’s light". It could imply a destiny, atta is ones own gati. It is a soul what person's has.

Ok, so has other people in the forum talked to you about your wrong views about souls yet? Or are you still using soul as in conventional terminology, that is, soul is also impermanent, suffering and not self? I wanna judge if it is worth it to engage with you on this or you're too stubborn to drop wrong views.

yes many years of no-selfer brainwashing hasn't worked on me. I don't see why i deserve to be called stubborn or the view i have is called wrong view.

In terms of the Dhamma it is a wrong view. No point pretending the Dhamma is something it isn’t. Its like arguing that Jesus was an atheist.

[auto]

Ok, so has other people in the forum talked to you about your wrong views about souls yet? Or are you still using soul as in conventional terminology, that is, soul is also impermanent, suffering and not self? I wanna judge if it is worth it to engage with you on this or you're too stubborn to drop wrong views.

yes many years of no-selfer brainwashing hasn't worked on me. I don't see why i deserve to be called stubborn or the view i have is called wrong view.

In terms of the Dhamma it is a wrong view. No point pretending the Dhamma is something it isn’t. Its like arguing that Jesus was an atheist.

I don't argue. I simply look at the sense of self as it is. Which has been exposed already that you don't understand it,

I am an atta. Every feeling is my atta. Its here,wherever I am. I experienced it with feelings which are mine. An atta is an individual nexus of feelings and will. I've experienced nothing else all my life. How's that for empirical?!

If I experience pain, which is a feeling, where is the atta in that? If feeling is atta then millions of different attas would rise and fall per day (if not more). How is that a self? If the atta is experiencing the feeling, then it isn’t feeling. So, what then is this atta? Personally I’ve experienced the concept of a self, but like the Buddha and Hume when I partake in an investigation of experience i can’t find anything which corresponds with the concept.

You are the feeling. Its yours. That is the atta. You can have several feelings at once,all unified by being YOURS. The feelings are the self. Different states of the self.
To me and most others it's self evident,and always is and has been,and will be.

[Nicolas]

[...]

The point of the sutta is that one's caste/birth does not matter, what matters is one's conduct -- a lowborn can be a sage -- and that the fire ritual and other externals don't purify, what purifies is the inner fire of samadhi. That's the gist of it.

There's nothing there that's related to the Atman, there's nothing there about rebirth being required for concentration, the only reference to rebirth is the brahmin wanting to be reborn in the host of Brahmas thanks to performing the ritual (he wishes).

You might say: what about "attā sudanto purisassa joti"?

Here are what some have said on this topic (which you participated in):

Atta is used as "oneself", a reflexive pronoun. Purisa is "man, person". They are both fairly common terms in Pali. So to turn it round the other way, "A man's light (i.e. good or holy quality) is when he has trained himself". (Sam Vara)

Conventional speech to the brahmin Bhāradvāja of Sundarika, as found in the Attavagga. (DooDoot)

[auto]

.

Thanks for your opinion, but i don't go with that.

[auto]

Atta is used as "oneself", a reflexive pronoun. Purisa is "man, person". They are both fairly common terms in Pali. So to turn it round the other way, "A man's light (i.e. good or holy quality) is when he has trained himself".

(Sam Vara)

He got a nice reply from Vincent.

[auto]

I sympathise, but a Buddhist forum is perhaps not the best place to pursue this.

No-selfers pretend that they have no control over in and out breath when they are breathing in and out manually. That the manual breathing is handicap or something, that the controller there have no significance for the future of one's practice.

[Ceisiwr]

…

Regardless of my understanding, it’s moronic to argue that the Buddha believed in a real atta. As I said, there is no point pretending a duck is a cat.

[Ceisiwr]

I sympathise, but a Buddhist forum is perhaps not the best place to pursue this.

No-selfers pretend that they have no control over in and out breath when they are breathing in and out manually. That the manual breathing is handicap or something, that the controller there have no significance for the future of one's practice.

This controller is what, exactly?

[auto]

I sympathise, but a Buddhist forum is perhaps not the best place to pursue this.

No-selfers pretend that they have no control over in and out breath when they are breathing in and out manually. That the manual breathing is handicap or something, that the controller there have no significance for the future of one's practice.

This controller is what, exactly?

When you notice that you are controlling the breath, then you are a breath controller.