🟧 Westward-bound Bhikkhus, SN 22.2 (Week of August 15, 2021)

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🟧 Westward-bound Bhikkhus, SN 22.2 (Week of August 15, 2021)

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:reading:

We often read in the suttas that one should use caution not to misrepresent the Blessed One when discussing the Dhamma, and here in SN 22.2 we find the first Chief, Ven. Sāriputta giving a group of bhikkhus heading for the western province, answers to a progression of hypothetical questions they may be asked by the the wise people they encounter on their travels. An excellent sutta for those in search of concise description of the Dhamma from the point of view of the five aggregates, and of knowledge of wholesome and unwholesome.

Enjoy. :smile:
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📍 Westward-bound Bhikkhus, SN 22.2 (Week of August 15, 2021)

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:reading:

Saṁyutta Nikāya
Devadahasutta (At Devadaha) SN 22.2 (PTS 3.6–3.9)
Translated by Bhikkhu Bodhi


  • Thus have I heard. On one occasion the Blessed One was dwelling among the Sakyans where there was a town of the Sakyans named Devadaha. Then a number of westward-bound bhikkhus approached the Blessed One, paid homage to him, sat down to one side, and said to him:

    “Venerable sir, we wish to go to the western province in order to take up residence there.”

    “Have you taken leave of Sāriputta, bhikkhus?”

    “No, venerable sir.”

    “Then take leave of Sāriputta, bhikkhus. Sāriputta is wise, he is one who helps his brothers in the holy life.”

    “Yes, venerable sir,” those bhikkhus replied. Now on that occasion the Venerable Sāriputta was sitting not far from the Blessed One in a cassia bush. Then those bhikkhus, having delighted and rejoiced in the Blessed One’s statement, rose from their seats and paid homage to the Blessed One. Then, keeping him on their right, they approached the Venerable Sāriputta. They exchanged greetings with the Venerable Sāriputta and, when they had concluded their greetings and cordial talk, they sat down to one side and said to him:

    “Friend Sāriputta, we wish to go to the western province in order to take up residence there. We have taken leave of the Teacher.”

    “Friends, there are wise khattiyas, wise brahmins, wise householders, and wise ascetics who question a bhikkhu when he has gone abroad —for wise people, friends, are inquisitive: ‘What does your teacher say, what does he teach?’ I hope that you venerable ones have learned the teachings well, grasped them well, attended to them well, reflected on them well, and penetrated them well with wisdom, so that when you answer you will state what has been said by the Blessed One and will not misrepresent him with what is contrary to fact; so that you will explain in accordance with the Dhamma, and no reasonable consequence of your assertion would give ground for criticism.”

    “We would come from far away, friend, to learn the meaning of this statement from the Venerable Sāriputta. It would be good indeed if the Venerable Sāriputta would clear up the meaning of this statement.”

    “Then listen and attend closely, friends, I will speak.”

    “Yes, friend,” those bhikkhus replied. The Venerable Sāriputta said this:

    “There are, friends, wise khattiyas, wise brahmins, wise householders, and wise ascetics who question a bhikkhu when he has gone abroad—for wise people, friends, are inquisitive: ‘What does your teacher say, what does he teach?’ Being asked thus, friends, you should answer: ‘Our teacher, friends, teaches the removal of desire and lust.’

    “When you have answered thus, friends, there may be wise khattiyas … wise ascetics who will question you further—for wise people, friends, are inquisitive: ‘In regard to what does your teacher teach the removal of desire and lust?’ Being asked thus, friends, you should answer: ‘Our teacher, friends, teaches the removal of desire and lust for form, the removal of desire and lust for feeling … perception … volitional formations … consciousness. ’

    “When you have answered thus, friends, there may be wise khattiyas … wise ascetics who will question you further—for wise people, friends, are inquisitive: ‘Having seen what danger does your teacher teach the removal of desire and lust for form, the removal of desire and lust for feeling … perception … volitional formations … consciousness?’ Being asked thus, friends, you should answer thus: ‘If, friends, one is not devoid of lust, desire, affection, thirst, passion, and craving in regard to form, then with the change and alteration of form there arise in one sorrow, lamentation, pain, displeasure, and despair. If, friends, one is not devoid of lust, desire, affection, thirst, passion, and craving in regard to feeling … perception … volitional formations … consciousness, then with the change and alteration of consciousness there arise in one sorrow, lamentation, pain, displeasure, and despair. Having seen this danger, our teacher teaches the removal of desire and lust for form, the removal of desire and lust for feeling … perception … volitional formations … consciousness. ’

    “When you have answered thus, friends, there may be wise khattiyas … wise ascetics who will question you further—for wise people, friends, are inquisitive: ‘Having seen what benefit does your teacher teach the removal of desire and lust for form, the removal of desire and lust for feeling … perception … volitional formations … consciousness?’ Being asked thus, friends, you should answer thus: ‘If, friends, one is devoid of lust, desire, affection, thirst, passion, and craving in regard to form, then with the change and alteration of form sorrow, lamentation, pain, displeasure, and despair do not arise in one. If one is devoid of lust, desire, affection, thirst, passion, and craving in regard to feeling … perception … volitional formations … consciousness, then with the change and alteration of consciousness sorrow, lamentation, pain, displeasure, and despair do not arise in one. Having seen this benefit, our teacher teaches the removal of desire and lust for form, the removal of desire and lust for feeling … perception … volitional formations … consciousness.’

    “If, friends, one who enters and dwells amidst unwholesome states could dwell happily in this very life, without vexation, despair, and fever, and if, with the breakup of the body, after death, he could expect a good destination, then the Blessed One would not praise the abandoning of unwholesome states. But because one who enters and dwells amidst unwholesome states dwells in suffering in this very life, with vexation, despair, and fever, and because he can expect a bad destination with the breakup of the body, after death, the Blessed One praises the abandoning of unwholesome states.

    “If, friends, one who enters and dwells amidst wholesome states would dwell in suffering in this very life, with vexation, despair, and fever, and if, with the breakup of the body, after death, he could expect a bad destination, then the Blessed One would not praise the acquisition of wholesome states. But because one who enters and dwells amidst wholesome states dwells happily in this very life, without vexation, despair, and fever, and because he can expect a good destination with the breakup of the body, after death, the Blessed One praises the acquisition of wholesome states.”

    This is what the Venerable Sāriputta said. Elated, those bhikkhus delighted in the Venerable Sāriputta’s statement.
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📍 Westward-bound Bhikkhus, SN 22.2 (Week of August 15, 2021)

Post by SDC »

Thoughts?
  • Here’s a condensed version of the progressive questioning for discussion purposes:
    • What does your teacher say, what does he teach? The removal of desire and lust.
    • In regard to what does your teacher teach the removal of desire and lust?’ The removal of desire and lust for form …feeling … perception … volitional formations … consciousness. [i.e. the five-clinging-aggregates]
    • ’Having seen what danger does your teacher teach the removal of desire and lust for [the five-clinging-aggregates]?’ If, friends, one is not devoid of lust, desire, affection, thirst, passion, and craving in regard to form…feeling…perception…volitional formations…consciousness… then with the change and alteration of [those] there arise in one sorrow, lamentation, pain, displeasure, and despair. …Having seen this danger, our teacher teaches the removal of desire and lust for [the five-clinging-aggregates]’
    • Having seen what benefit does your teacher teach the removal of desire and lust for [the five-clinging-aggregates]? ‘If, friends, one is devoid of lust, desire, affection, thirst, passion, and craving in regard to form… feeling … perception … volitional formations … consciousness then with the change and alteration of [those] sorrow, lamentation, pain, displeasure, and despair do not arise in one. … Having seen this benefit, our teacher teaches the removal of desire and lust for [the five-clinging-aggregates]
  • The relationship of desire and lust to the five aggregates from MN 44: “The five clinging aggregates, friend Visākha, are not just clinging; but neither is there clinging apart from the five clinging aggregates. That, friend Visākha, in the five clinging aggregates which is desire-&-lust, that clinging is therein."
  • The gratification, danger and escape in the case of these five aggregates from SN 22.26 (also consolidated for discussion purposes): “Then, bhikkhus, it occurred to me: ‘The pleasure and joy that arise in dependence on form…feeling…perception…volitional formations…consciousness: this is the gratification in [those]. That [these five clinging aggregates are] impermanent, suffering, and subject to change: this is the danger in [them]. The removal and abandonment of desire and lust [for these five clinging aggregates]: this is the escape from [them].
  • Compare the sections on wholesome and wholesome to MN 60: “…Now whether or not the word of those good recluses and brahmins is true, let me assume that there is no other world: still this good person is here and now praised by the wise as a virtuous person, one with right view who holds the doctrine of affirmation. And on the other hand, if there is another world, then this good person has made a lucky throw on both counts: since he is praised by the wise here and now, and since on the dissolution of the body, after death, he will reappear in a happy destination, even in the heavenly world.”
Looking forward to the discussion this week. :smile:
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Re: 📍 Westward-bound Bhikkhus, SN 22.2 (Week of August 15, 2021)

Post by asahi »

SDC wrote: Sun Aug 15, 2021 12:05 am
  • Compare the sections on wholesome and wholesome to MN 60: “…Now whether or not the word of those good recluses and brahmins is true, let me assume that there is no other world: still this good person is here and now praised by the wise as a virtuous person, one with right view who holds the doctrine of affirmation. And on the other hand, if there is another world, then this good person has made a lucky throw on both counts: since he is praised by the wise here and now, and since on the dissolution of the body, after death, he will reappear in a happy destination, even in the heavenly world.”
Looking forward to the discussion this week. :smile:
1. In hinduism and taoism there are teachings to remove desire and lust , so both buddhist teachers and hindu taoist teachers appears teaching the same thing , what do you make of this if you are being question ?
2. Personally i would bet myself on acquisition and dwelling on wholesome states to make sure i dont fall to lower realms . MN60 confirmed the Buddha acknowledged there is rebirth since there is another world after death one will reappear . We have so many suttas to back up rebirth why bother if some ignorant person advocating no rebirth .
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Re: 📍 Westward-bound Bhikkhus, SN 22.2 (Week of August 15, 2021)

Post by JohnK »

Just noticing that Sariputta does not recommend (in this context) sharing the Buddha's key teaching of going beyond rebirth -- I suppose it's about just teaching what the listeners might be ready to hear (although they did ask about the benefits). This reminds me of MN 97 where Sariputta does something similar when he establishes the dying brahmin Dhananjani in the "inferior Brahma world" and is questioned by the Buddha about that. "But Sāriputta, after establishing Dhanañjāni in the inferior Brahmā realm, why did you get up from your seat and leave while there was still more left to do?” (from https://suttacentral.net/mn97/en/sujato)
Those who grasp at perceptions & views wander the internet creating friction. [based on Sn4:9,v.847]
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Re: 📍 Westward-bound Bhikkhus, SN 22.2 (Week of August 15, 2021)

Post by JohnK »

SDC wrote: Sun Aug 15, 2021 12:05 am ...
  • Here’s a condensed version of the progressive questioning for discussion purposes:
    • What does your teacher say, what does he teach? The removal of desire and lust.
    • In regard to what does your teacher teach the removal of desire and lust?’ The removal of desire and lust for form …feeling … perception … volitional formations … consciousness. [i.e. the five-clinging-aggregates]
    • ’Having seen what danger does your teacher teach the removal of desire and lust for [the five-clinging-aggregates]?’ If, friends, one is not devoid of lust, desire, affection, thirst, passion, and craving in regard to form…feeling…perception…volitional formations…consciousness… then with the change and alteration of [those] there arise in one sorrow, lamentation, pain, displeasure, and despair. …Having seen this danger, our teacher teaches the removal of desire and lust for [the five-clinging-aggregates]’
    • Having seen what benefit does your teacher teach the removal of desire and lust for [the five-clinging-aggregates]? ‘If, friends, one is devoid of lust, desire, affection, thirst, passion, and craving in regard to form… feeling … perception … volitional formations … consciousness then with the change and alteration of [those] sorrow, lamentation, pain, displeasure, and despair do not arise in one. … Having seen this benefit, our teacher teaches the removal of desire and lust for [the five-clinging-aggregates]
...
SDC, I appreciate your condensed version -- thank you.
To me, you could have tracked a bit more with the rest of the sutta (while still being condensed about it).
So, I would add:
If you could dwell in unwholesome states and nevertheless be happy now and later, abandonment of these states would not be taught -- but you can't, so, such abandonment is taught.
If you could dwell in wholesome states and nevertheless suffer now and later, development of wholesome states would not be taught -- but you would not, so, such development is taught.

Why bother with this addition? Well, for one, Sariputta did. :smile:
But it is also interesting in that it broadens the presentation (w/o any explanation to the hypothetical questioners) to all wholesome/unwholesome states not just desire/clinging.
And, how does it fit with the structure of the sutta? It seems to take a step beyond the previous, fairly concise answers to each question.
And, it seems to emphasize that happiness is the ultimate rationale: "Hey, if you could be happy being unwholesome, abandonment would not be taught."
Those who grasp at perceptions & views wander the internet creating friction. [based on Sn4:9,v.847]
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Re: 📍 Westward-bound Bhikkhus, SN 22.2 (Week of August 15, 2021)

Post by SDC »

asahi wrote: Tue Aug 17, 2021 8:18 am
SDC wrote: Sun Aug 15, 2021 12:05 am
  • Compare the sections on wholesome and wholesome to MN 60: “…Now whether or not the word of those good recluses and brahmins is true, let me assume that there is no other world: still this good person is here and now praised by the wise as a virtuous person, one with right view who holds the doctrine of affirmation. And on the other hand, if there is another world, then this good person has made a lucky throw on both counts: since he is praised by the wise here and now, and since on the dissolution of the body, after death, he will reappear in a happy destination, even in the heavenly world.”
Looking forward to the discussion this week. :smile:
1. In hinduism and taoism there are teachings to remove desire and lust , so both buddhist teachers and hindu taoist teachers appears teaching the same thing , what do you make of this if you are being question ?
2. Personally i would bet myself on acquisition and dwelling on wholesome states to make sure i dont fall to lower realms . MN60 confirmed the Buddha acknowledged there is rebirth since there is another world after death one will reappear . We have so many suttas to back up rebirth why bother if some ignorant person advocating no rebirth .
Yes MN 60 is real good sutta and gives a very simple description of what to do with the question of wandering on.
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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Re: 📍 Westward-bound Bhikkhus, SN 22.2 (Week of August 15, 2021)

Post by SDC »

JohnK wrote: Wed Aug 18, 2021 3:19 am
SDC wrote: Sun Aug 15, 2021 12:05 am ...
  • Here’s a condensed version of the progressive questioning for discussion purposes:
    • What does your teacher say, what does he teach? The removal of desire and lust.
    • In regard to what does your teacher teach the removal of desire and lust?’ The removal of desire and lust for form …feeling … perception … volitional formations … consciousness. [i.e. the five-clinging-aggregates]
    • ’Having seen what danger does your teacher teach the removal of desire and lust for [the five-clinging-aggregates]?’ If, friends, one is not devoid of lust, desire, affection, thirst, passion, and craving in regard to form…feeling…perception…volitional formations…consciousness… then with the change and alteration of [those] there arise in one sorrow, lamentation, pain, displeasure, and despair. …Having seen this danger, our teacher teaches the removal of desire and lust for [the five-clinging-aggregates]’
    • Having seen what benefit does your teacher teach the removal of desire and lust for [the five-clinging-aggregates]? ‘If, friends, one is devoid of lust, desire, affection, thirst, passion, and craving in regard to form… feeling … perception … volitional formations … consciousness then with the change and alteration of [those] sorrow, lamentation, pain, displeasure, and despair do not arise in one. … Having seen this benefit, our teacher teaches the removal of desire and lust for [the five-clinging-aggregates]
...
SDC, I appreciate your condensed version -- thank you.
To me, you could have tracked a bit more with the rest of the sutta (while still being condensed about it).
So, I would add:
If you could dwell in unwholesome states and nevertheless be happy now and later, abandonment of these states would not be taught -- but you can't, so, such abandonment is taught.
If you could dwell in wholesome states and nevertheless suffer now and later, development of wholesome states would not be taught -- but you would not, so, such development is taught.

Why bother with this addition? Well, for one, Sariputta did. :smile:
But it is also interesting in that it broadens the presentation (w/o any explanation to the hypothetical questioners) to all wholesome/unwholesome states not just desire/clinging.
And, how does it fit with the structure of the sutta? It seems to take a step beyond the previous, fairly concise answers to each question.
And, it seems to emphasize that happiness is the ultimate rationale: "Hey, if you could be happy being unwholesome, abandonment would not be taught."
I didn’t want to run the risk of condensing the last portion and perhaps having something be lost. The question portion of the sutta seemed the more difficult to navigate. Nevertheless you do make and important point, that suttas must be taken as a whole and even though the whole thing is here to be read, condensing it is risky.
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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