Ceisiwr wrote: ↑Wed Aug 18, 2021 12:33 pmConventionally he was a human being, yes. A being is always a convention, never an ultimate reality.un8- wrote: ↑Wed Aug 18, 2021 12:30 pmDoes that mean you believe the Buddha was still a being at the time of that conversation?Ceisiwr wrote: ↑Wed Aug 18, 2021 11:40 am
As provided above, the Mahavihāravāsin analysis is that of the answers being in the future tense. This chimes well with other suttas, where freedom from all dukkha is only at the end of life (for rebirth has stopped). Two parallels were given. The first is likely of Mahāsāṃghika origin, the other from the Sarvāstivāda. The Mahāsāṃghika tended to favour a more transcendental Buddha, which would help to explain their version of this sutta. The Sarvāstivādins, as far as I'm aware, did not however given that Theravāda is well known for it's near obsession with textual analysis and precision, the Theravādin sutta comes out as the most favourable one. Combined with the commentary, this exchange likely referred to future lives.
The "Buddha" is a designation in Theravāda. While we use the term in daily conversation, still, it is merely a conventional concept and never a ultimate reality. To insist "Buddha" is real and as ultimate reality, and be vanished by attaining Nibbana, is Ucchedaditthi.
Yamaka Suttanta"How do you construe this, my friend Yamaka: Do you regard form as the Tathagata?"
"No, my friend."
"Do you regard feeling as the Tathagata?"
"No, my friend."
"Do you regard perception as the Tathagata?"
"No, my friend."
"Do you regard fabrications as the Tathagata?"
"No, my friend."
"Do you regard consciousness as the Tathagata?"
"No, my friend."
"What do you think: Do you regard the Tathagata as being in form?... Elsewhere than form?... In feeling?... Elsewhere than feeling?... In perception?... Elsewhere than perception?... In fabrications?... Elsewhere than fabrications?... In consciousness?... Elsewhere than consciousness?"
"No, my friend."
"What do you think: Do you regard the Tathagata as form-feeling-perception-fabrications-consciousness?"
"No, my friend."
"Do you regard the Tathagata as that which is without form, without feeling, without perception, without fabrications, without consciousness?"
"No, my friend."
"And so, my friend Yamaka — when you can't pin down the Tathagata as a truth or reality even in the present life — is it proper for you to declare, 'As I understand the Teaching explained by the Blessed One, a monk with no more effluents, on the break-up of the body, is annihilated, perishes, & does not exist after death'?"
"Previously, my friend Sariputta, I did foolishly hold that evil supposition. But now, having heard your explanation of the Dhamma, I have abandoned that evil supposition, and have broken through to the Dhamma."
"Then, friend Yamaka, how would you answer if you are thus asked: A monk, a worthy one, with no more mental effluents: what is he on the break-up of the body, after death?"
"Thus asked, I would answer, 'Form is inconstant... Feeling... Perception... Fabrications... Consciousness is inconstant. That which is inconstant is stressful. That which is stressful has ceased and gone to its end."
"Very good, my friend Yamaka. Very good.