🟩 The Sage at Peace is Not Born (Week of August 22, 2021)

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SDC
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Re: 📍The Sage at Peace is Not Born (Week of August 22, 2021)

Post by SDC »

Spiny Norman wrote: Thu Aug 26, 2021 9:59 am
SDC wrote: Wed Aug 25, 2021 9:32 pm
ToVincent wrote: Wed Aug 25, 2021 3:51 pm Thanks again SDC
Much appreciated! And thank you!
And thank you for "chairing" an interesting and civilised discussion.
:anjali:
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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Re: 📍The Sage at Peace is Not Born (Week of August 22, 2021)

Post by Pulsar »

Equilibrium wrote
The teaching are merely a raft...for the purpose of getting those to the other shore....the knowledge and vision is the bit he wants you to see for yourself!
The knowledge and the vision empowers one to reverse DO. Once accomplished it is said that the raft is left behind.
In response to
There is never a mind without a body. Enlightenment occurs as an embodied experience.
E wrote
Really, that's a misunderstanding and fabrication.....that is not what the buddha taught, the middle way....the unborn, the unmade.
Middle way is the raft, without the raft, to speak of "unborn" is meaningless.
  • The "body" emphasized in early Buddhism is the 5 sense bases.
Without the activity at the sense bases, one cannot refer to enlightenment. A dead body is of no value.
From the text of A. Wynne,
For the present purpose, we note that the peculiar idea of a ‘sentient corpse’ suggests that consciousness, sentience or awareness is inseparable from embodiment, and cannot be reduced to ‘mind’
E replied
Merely a suggestion.
In the end one can say even this consciousness, dependent origination, scheme of liberation are merely suggestions. Buddha himself said "this consciousness is a magic trick" to you "merely a suggestion"????
A Wynne'e text
Such texts suggest that body and mind are experientially inseparable.
If so, liberation must also affect both body and mind, and meditation should transform both; this would also seem to be the message of the Brahmajāla Sutta. And perhaps this should make us wonder: might this understanding of mind and body have anything to do with the early Buddhist practice of bodily mindfulness?
You replied
Nothing much here either......there is a saying, "If one use his eyes, one is clearly blind!"
Do you understand what is meant by meditation should transform both? It means it should transform what is happening at the sense bases located on the body, hence the "body" is indispensable.
What is bodily mindfulness?
Suttas such DN 22/MN 10 which are compiled by late abhidhammikas, are misleading in their explanations. SN 47.42 correctly addresses this issue.
  • Bodily mindfulness means blocking the entry of signs (nimittas) and features upon seeing a sight, hearing a sound, smelling a smell, tasting a thing, touching an object, or thinking of an object
via organs located on the body, hence bodily.
Without the sense organs the body is merely a corpse. Buddha did not teach Paticca samuppada to corpses.
Best :candle:
Pulsar
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Re: 📍The Sage at Peace is Not Born (Week of August 22, 2021)

Post by Pulsar »

Spiny Norman wrote
I can't think of any suttas which give a comprehensive description
of the sankhara aggregate.
Have you read all the suttas of Nidanavagga (The book of causation)
and all of the suttas of Kandhavagga (The book of Aggregates). If you take a peek at those, perhaps you might find one.
With love :candle:
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Re: 📍The Sage at Peace is Not Born (Week of August 22, 2021)

Post by Spiny Norman »

Pulsar wrote: Fri Aug 27, 2021 4:57 pm Spiny Norman wrote
I can't think of any suttas which give a comprehensive description
of the sankhara aggregate.
Have you read all the suttas of Nidanavagga (The book of causation)
and all of the suttas of Kandhavagga (The book of Aggregates). If you take a peek at those, perhaps you might find one.
With love :candle:
Yes, I have, but it was some time ago. By all means quote a sutta that gives a comprehensive description of the sankhara aggregate, if you can find one.
Possibly this is another thread?
Buddha save me from new-agers!
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SDC
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Re: 📍The Sage at Peace is Not Born (Week of August 22, 2021)

Post by SDC »

Spiny Norman wrote: Fri Aug 27, 2021 5:21 pm
Pulsar wrote: Fri Aug 27, 2021 4:57 pm Spiny Norman wrote
I can't think of any suttas which give a comprehensive description
of the sankhara aggregate.
Have you read all the suttas of Nidanavagga (The book of causation)
and all of the suttas of Kandhavagga (The book of Aggregates). If you take a peek at those, perhaps you might find one.
With love :candle:
Yes, I have, but it was some time ago. By all means quote a sutta that gives a comprehensive description of the sankhara aggregate, if you can find one.
Possibly this is another thread?
Yes, please, unless it ties back into the suttas in OP, but I think we should send a split thread into overtime in General Theravada Discussion when this one closes tomorrow.
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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Re: 📍The Sage at Peace is Not Born (Week of August 22, 2021)

Post by Spiny Norman »

SDC wrote: Fri Aug 27, 2021 6:02 pm
Spiny Norman wrote: Fri Aug 27, 2021 5:21 pm
Pulsar wrote: Fri Aug 27, 2021 4:57 pm Spiny Norman wrote
Have you read all the suttas of Nidanavagga (The book of causation)
and all of the suttas of Kandhavagga (The book of Aggregates). If you take a peek at those, perhaps you might find one.
With love :candle:
Yes, I have, but it was some time ago. B8y all means quote a sutta that gives a comprehensive description of the sankhara aggregate, if you can find one.
Possibly this is another thread?
Yes, please, unless it ties back into the suttas in OP, but I think we should send a split thread into overtime in General Theravada Discussion when this one closes tomorrow.
:goodpost:
Buddha save me from new-agers!
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equilibrium
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Re: 📍The Sage at Peace is Not Born (Week of August 22, 2021)

Post by equilibrium »

Pulsar wrote: Fri Aug 27, 2021 11:47 am There is never a mind without a body. Enlightenment occurs as an embodied experience.
E wrote
Really, that's a misunderstanding and fabrication.....that is not what the buddha taught, the middle way....the unborn, the unmade.
Middle way is the raft, without the raft, to speak of "unborn" is meaningless.
  • The "body" emphasized in early Buddhism is the 5 sense bases.
Without the activity at the sense bases, one cannot refer to enlightenment. A dead body is of no value.
From the text of A. Wynne,
No mind without body you say but yet the Tathagata under AN 10.81 dwells with unrestricted awareness:
"Just as a red, blue, or white lotus born in the water and growing in the water, rises up above the water and stands with no water adhering to it, in the same way the Tathagata — freed, dissociated, & released from these ten things — dwells with unrestricted awareness."
For the present purpose, we note that the peculiar idea of a ‘sentient corpse’ suggests that consciousness, sentience or awareness is inseparable from embodiment, and cannot be reduced to ‘mind
E replied
Merely a suggestion.
In the end one can say even this consciousness, dependent origination, scheme of liberation are merely suggestions. Buddha himself said "this consciousness is a magic trick" to you "merely a suggestion"????
Ah! looks like we're talking about different things here. Am on the MIND part underlined and you are on consciousness!
Consciousness has already been answered in my previous post.....and you still haven't answered my question on what escapes samsara ?
A Wynne'e text
Such texts suggest that body and mind are experientially inseparable.
If so, liberation must also affect both body and mind, and meditation should transform both; this would also seem to be the message of the Brahmajāla Sutta. And perhaps this should make us wonder: might this understanding of mind and body have anything to do with the early Buddhist practice of bodily mindfulness?
You replied
Nothing much here either......there is a saying, "If one use his eyes, one is clearly blind!"
Do you understand what is meant by meditation should transform both? It means it should transform what is happening at the sense bases located on the body, hence the "body" is indispensable.
What is bodily mindfulness?
Suttas such DN 22/MN 10 which are compiled by late abhidhammikas, are misleading in their explanations. SN 47.42 correctly addresses this issue.
  • Bodily mindfulness means blocking the entry of signs (nimittas) and features upon seeing a sight, hearing a sound, smelling a smell, tasting a thing, touching an object, or thinking of an object
via organs located on the body, hence bodily.
Without the sense organs the body is merely a corpse. Buddha did not teach Paticca samuppada to corpses.
The subject on discussion is Nibbana and you are talking about meditation?
Meditation has nothing to do with Nibbana!.....you are aware of this?
Nibbana can only be experienced outside of the ALL!
SN 35.23:
"Monks, I will teach you the All. Listen & pay close attention. I will speak."

"As you say, lord," the monks responded.

The Blessed One said, "What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All.
SN 35.24:
"Monks, I will teach you the All as a phenomenon to be abandoned. Listen & pay close attention. I will speak."

"As you say, lord," the monks responded.

The Blessed One said, "And which All is a phenomenon to be abandoned? The eye is to be abandoned. [1] Forms are to be abandoned. Consciousness at the eye is to be abandoned. Contact at the eye is to be abandoned. And whatever there is that arises in dependence on contact at the eye — experienced as pleasure, pain or neither-pleasure-nor-pain — that too is to be abandoned.

"The ear is to be abandoned. Sounds are to be abandoned...

"The nose is to be abandoned. Aromas are to be abandoned...

"The tongue is to be abandoned. Flavors are to be abandoned...

"The body is to be abandoned. Tactile sensations are to be abandoned...

"The intellect is to be abandoned. Ideas are to be abandoned. Consciousness at the intellect is to be abandoned. Contact at the intellect is to be abandoned. And whatever there is that arises in dependence on contact at the intellect — experienced as pleasure, pain or neither-pleasure-nor-pain — that too is to be abandoned.

"This is called the All as a phenomenon to be abandoned."
Pulsar
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Re: 📍The Sage at Peace is Not Born (Week of August 22, 2021)

Post by Pulsar »

Equilibrium wrote
and you still haven't answered my question on what escapes samsara ?
The question is wrong.
There is no "what" as an identity to begin with. There is "a doing, but no doer".
A sutta that hints at it. An excerpt from Phagguna sutta SN12.12. After reading that, you might want to rephrase the question.
...Ven.-Moliya-Phagguna said to the Blessed One, "Lord, who feeds on the consciousness-nutriment?"

"Not a valid question," the Blessed One said. "I don't say 'feeds.' If I were to say 'feeds,' then 'Who feeds on the consciousness-nutriment?' would be a valid question. But I don't say that. When I don't say that, the valid question is 'Consciousness-nutriment for what?' And the valid answer is, 'Consciousness-nutriment for the production of future coming-into-being. When that has come into being and exists, then the six sense media. From the six sense media as a requisite condition comes contact.'
Link https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/SN/SN12_12.html Pl read the entire sutta.

You wrote
The subject of discussion is Nibbana and you are talking about meditation? Meditation has nothing to do with Nibbana!.....you are aware of this?
Dear Equilibrium, you have missed the whole point of the Buddha. Bhavana is the entire path, 24/7 mindfulness. Eight-fold path has everything to do with Nibbana, that is its ultimate goal.
How else would you reverse DO?. Pl take a peek at my jhana thread. First comes the path, then comes nibbana, the cooling of all sorrows. This thread closes today. I can meet you on my jhana thread, if you wish.
You wrote
Nibbana can only be experienced outside of the ALL!
The successful meditator excludes the "All", which is a reference to the happenings in the sensory world. In other words, All is defined by the rising of six sensory cognitions, at the 6 sense bases. One who transcends the six sense bases tastes Nibbana. There is nothing more to it.
With love :candle:
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Re: 📍The Sage at Peace is Not Born (Week of August 22, 2021)

Post by equilibrium »

Pulsar wrote: Sat Aug 28, 2021 9:33 am
Equilibrium wrote:
and you still haven't answered my question on what escapes samsara ?
The question is wrong.
There is no "what" as an identity to begin with. There is "a doing, but no doer".
A sutta that hints at it. An excerpt from Phagguna sutta SN12.12.
If one cannot pin down what it is then it’s annihilation.
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Re: 📍The Sage at Peace is Not Born (Week of August 22, 2021)

Post by Pulsar »

Equilibrium wrote
If one cannot pin down what it is then it’s annihilation.
There were wanderers that thought so, during Buddha's time, before his time, and now after his time, also. Perhaps this is why he hesitated to teach the Dhamma, after his Awakening/Enlightenment.
Have a beautiful Day! :candle:
Pulsar
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Re: 📍The Sage at Peace is Not Born (Week of August 22, 2021)

Post by Pulsar »

Retuning to the main topic, OP wrote
The excerpt from MN 140 is a brazen description of the sage at peace.
It is cool that you call it brazen, or one may choose "intensely poetic"
You wrote: Here the Buddha unequivocally declares the sage,
  • is not born, does not age, does not die; he is not shaken and does not yearn.
The verse is mind blowing, it sounds like an extremely skillful poet compiled this sutta.
It fascinates, It makes the canon fun to read.
You wrote
What are the implications here? Why not say the sage will not be born (again), will not age, will not die, etc.? Why the immediacy?
Elsewhere it is said that this Dhamma is immediate. You wrote
It seems this is saying that here and now - while there is still a living body - the sage is not born. Does this mean that the birth of that currently living body (which will age and will perish) is secondary to the general experience of the sage at peace, which does not age or die?
In a physical sense yes. Also, In a soteriological sense, dependent origination has ceased. There is no relentless birthing and dying.
You raise a good point,
the currently living body is secondary to the issue. The Arahant has transcended the sense bases. A severe illness to the body will affect him, but it has nothing to do with his spiritual advancement. Original purpose of the body has been accomplished, the body can be dispensed with, with no impact to the nibbanized state. Kamma is abolished. The purpose of religious life is to transcend the sense bases.
You asked
Is the experience now more than just the range of that body, and would it limit the extent of the insight if the distinction is not clear?
"Range of the body" does not apply anymore, as it does to an unenlightened person. The insight itself is infinite, and is beyond measurement.
Once DO is reversed, aggregates are not generated, there is no aggregation. Do I make sense to you?
Folks are used to thinking of an Arahant as they think of themselves. This is an error of conception.
Can SN 22.26 (Pathways of Language) offer any assistance with how to interpret the use of "is”?
you wrote.
I found this sutta refreshing, indeed it does.
You raise another a good point here,
while there is still a living body - the sage is not born.
You write
Does this mean that the birth of that currently living body (which will age and will perish) is secondary to the general experience of the sage at peace, which does not age or die?
Quite so, I love the way you phrase it, you have given much thought to this sutta. I appreciate the thoughtful considerations, in your introductions. Yes, the body has ceased to be of any significance as I explained before.
I hope I did justice to an extremely valid question. Certain understandings are very hard to get across, or transmit, perhaps you get what I am struggling to say.
You wrote further
Is the experience now more than just the range of that body, and would it limit the extent of the insight if the distinction is not clear?
I think I already answered that.
Thanks for an awesome study session. It leaves me enriched.
Happy weekend!
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Re: 📍The Sage at Peace is Not Born (Week of August 22, 2021)

Post by SDC »

As this session comes to a close I just want to thank everyone for their participation this week. This is the second-longest, but by far the most active topic we've ever had in the Study Group. Great work! :toast:

Although things did slow down in the end, if anyone has anything left unsaid, please send me a PM and I can split those posts into a new topic in General Theravada.
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