🟩 The Sage at Peace is Not Born (Week of August 22, 2021)

Where we gather to focus on a single discourse or thematic collection from the Sutta Piṭaka (new selection every two weeks)
Pulsar
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Re: 📍The Sage at Peace is Not Born (Week of August 22, 2021)

Post by Pulsar »

Equilibrium wrote
4. Knowledge and vision:
This is by far the most important bit of the teaching and what the buddha wanted you to see/experience.....and the most difficult to explain/express and understand.
After that you went on and on, and I could not figure out a thing you were saying...
I thought the most important bit of the teaching was Dependent Origination, and its reversal using the 8-fold path.
And Buddha managed to teach these without difficulty to those who were receptive, and willing to discipline themselves accordingly.
You wrote
This is also where under MN 140:
the sage at peace is not born, does not age, does not die
By entering this dimension, one knows the mind were never born in the first place, it cannot die either.....these are the same characteristics as the "unconditioned".....and it should be.....its unborn.

When we say enlighten, it is the mind that is being freed and not the body. Furthermore, it is the original state, the unborn so the mind here had always been there within the body and within this void. You cannot create this unborn mind, its merely an escape out of samsara....the middle way, avoiding the extremes.
Might the poetic phrase
the sage at peace is not born, does not age, does not die
have the power of intoxicating some of us, granted once heard, it is unforgettable.
Who wants to die?
You made me see the impact of MN 140 in a different light.
With love :candle:
Spiny Norman
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Re: 📍The Sage at Peace is Not Born (Week of August 22, 2021)

Post by Spiny Norman »

Pulsar wrote: Wed Aug 25, 2021 8:38 pm Spiny Norman wrote
Thanks, but I wasn't talking about vinnana, I was talking about "I am" as a persistent self-view.
Where does the self view reside, according to your understanding?
Best :candle:
Presumably self-view and "I am" reside in the same "place" as the other fetters, which means they form part of the sankharas aggregate.
Buddha save me from new-agers!
Spiny Norman
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Re: 📍The Sage at Peace is Not Born (Week of August 22, 2021)

Post by Spiny Norman »

SDC wrote: Wed Aug 25, 2021 9:32 pm
ToVincent wrote: Wed Aug 25, 2021 3:51 pm Thanks again SDC
Much appreciated! And thank you!
And thank you for "chairing" an interesting and civilised discussion.
Buddha save me from new-agers!
Pulsar
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Re: 📍The Sage at Peace is Not Born (Week of August 22, 2021)

Post by Pulsar »

SDC wrote: 
I take the cook sutta in the same way I take our favorite, AN 11.9. There are signs/indications of the king’s preference based on how he treats the various dishes; what he grabs for and what he clearly enjoys. 
Your reference to Sandha warms my heart. I see your point, my difficulty: nimitta is used in an entirely different context, with DO.
To pick up a sign via eye, ear, tongue is like piercing these organs with a hot iron spike, Buddha admonishes, saying it is better to sleep than allow this.
So this is where I am coming from? I try to retrieve this info. as a meditation tool many times.
In the cook sutta "pick up the sign" is used in a different context, a bit like "pick the hint"  of what is required for successful meditation.
You wrote
A good cook takes notice of these signs so that he can then only cook what the king enjoys at the time he wants to enjoy them. A bad cook does not pay attention during the meal; he doesn’t pick up on the signs of the king’s preference.
True, this implies constant attention to a given mood, and adjusting meditation likewise.
You wrote
In AN 11.9 Sandha sutta, the thoroughbred horse doesn’t just focus on the hay in front of him - for the thoroughbred the presence of his food is a sign - it makes him think about what his master will ask of him after he is fed.
The food as a nimitta, is not quite how I approached Sandha, but I see your point.
To me the food came across as an obsession to the wild colt (obsessed by the sensory world), an incurable disease. Excerpt ...The wild one:
just meditates "Fodder, fodder!, So too Sandha, a person who is like a wild colt, when gone to the forest ....dwells with a mind obsessed and oppressed by sensual lust.
 As regards the thoroughbred's meditation, the ending impressions of the sutta is very evocative.
"Not even the gods know how he meditates".
It refers to the wise mediitator.
You wrote 
You make many good points, but based on how I’ve come to understand these suttas, I am unable to see how they could be later corruptions. But you are absolutely right, so much of what came later in commentary makes it very hard to find these subtle treatments found in these suttas.
I will look for the publication by A. Wynne, you will understand my approach a bit better after reading
that. 
By later corruptions, I meant some things are inventions of sutta compilers, which has to be true, given that suttas were compiled by using brief fragments of Buddha's teachings floating around.   
Not every word in the Nikaya is Buddha's. MN 111 is an entirely phony fabrication.
It constantly amazes me, that in spite of the corruption, the Buddha comes into focus via the Pali Nikaya, when earnestly sought.
The contradictions in the suttas comes across to me as a struggle that went on between those compilers that understood the Buddha via DO and those that understood Buddha via upanishadic leanings. 
If you read about fights that went on in Nalanda among prominent buddhist scholars around the 5th century, it will bring home to you what Thanissaro meant by the "Committee of the Mind" The variegated abhidhammic ideas are fascinating.
Somewhere in the literature, it is said "Those who see Paticca samuppada sees the Buddha/Dhamma" You wrote 
I am grateful we are able to pick at them together.
The joy is mine and mine alone.
Now when i struggle to find a meditation method based on a mood, be it Brahmaviharas, or a spike stabbing a sense organ, or Buddha's advice to Rahula.. like "these thoughts are not mine" "these intentions are not mine" past present or future,
or the method to empty the mind using SN 47.42, i think of you, and how you brought me the cook sutta. Long live this DW study group!
With love :candle:
Pulsar
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Re: 📍The Sage at Peace is Not Born (Week of August 22, 2021)

Post by Pulsar »

Spiny Norman wrote
Presumably self-view and "I am" reside in the same "place" as the other fetters, which means they form part of the sankharas aggregate.
Not sure why you isolate the Sankhara aggregate, as the home of "I am? can you explain?
Sankhara or volition aggregate deals with intention, or kamma making.
An intention arises from contact with form aggregate, leading to feeling, perception, intention etc.
SN 22.3 writes
Form, feeling, perception, volition are the homes for consciousness/cognition/vinnana.
The view "I am" is a repeatedly arising event in the consciousness/vinnana/cognition of the ignorant individual, coming into contact with a sense object.
Therefore it is not incorrect to say "the view I am" resides in a repeatedly arising vinnana.
With love :candle:
Pulsar
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Re: 📍The Sage at Peace is Not Born (Week of August 22, 2021)

Post by Pulsar »

Equilibrium wrote in one of his comments,
"When we say enlighten, it is the mind that is being freed and not the body."
There is never a mind without a body. Enlightenment occurs as an embodied experience.
Here is an excerpt that might help you avoid the confusion.

a passage from Alexander Wynne's publication.
stressing the importance of the body...
But I do not say, sir, that making an end of suffering occurs
without reaching the end of the world. And yet, sir, I declare that the world,
its arising, cessation and the way there to occurs in this
very fathom- long body, endowed with
perception and mind.
Commenting on this passage, Hamilton (2000: 109) has noted that 'all of the factors of our experience, whatever they may be, are dependent for their existence as that on our cognitive apparatus.'
This enigmatic statement doesnot merely claim, therefore, that the ‘world’ depends on mind;
the dependence is rather on a body and its sense faculties, which include mind.
For the present purpose, we note that the peculiar idea of a ‘sentient corpse’ suggests that consciousness, sentience or awareness is inseparable from embodiment, and cannot be reduced to ‘mind’.
A similar expression, but with a more regular term for ‘body’, distinguishes the ‘body endowed with sentience’ (saviññāṇake kāye) from external ‘objects’ (bahiddhā ca sabbanimittesu), both of which are loci for a person’s ‘underlying tendency towards conceit in the terms ‘I’ and ‘mine’, (respectively).

Such texts suggest that body and mind are experientially inseparable.
If so, liberation must also affect both body and mind, and meditation should transform both; this would also seem to be the message of the Brahmajāla Sutta. And perhaps this should make us wonder: might this understanding of mind and body have anything to do with the early Buddhist practice of bodily mindfulness?
From
Sariputta or Kaccāna? A preliminary study of two early Buddhist philosophies of mind and meditation by Alexander Wynne

With love :candle:
PS Cognitive apparatus is the eye, ear, nose, tongue etc located on the body. Without the body how can the mind function?
Spiny Norman
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Re: 📍The Sage at Peace is Not Born (Week of August 22, 2021)

Post by Spiny Norman »

Pulsar wrote: Thu Aug 26, 2021 3:16 pm Spiny Norman wrote
Presumably self-view and "I am" reside in the same "place" as the other fetters, which means they form part of the sankharas aggregate.
Not sure why you isolate the Sankhara aggregate, as the home of "I am? can you explain?
Sankhara or volition aggregate deals with intention, or kamma making.
An intention arises from contact with form aggregate, leading to feeling, perception, intention etc.
SN 22.3 writes
Form, feeling, perception, volition are the homes for consciousness/cognition/vinnana.
The view "I am" is a repeatedly arising event in the consciousness/vinnana/cognition of the ignorant individual, coming into contact with a sense object.
Therefore it is not incorrect to say "the view I am" resides in a repeatedly arising vinnana.
With love :candle:
I didn't say that. I said the fetters are part of the sankhara aggregate. Fetters are long-term underlying tendencies, which have to be progressively abandoned on the path. So I don't agree with your interpretation of them as repeatingly arising events.
The sankhara aggegrate is ill-defined in the suttas, but includes a wide range of mental factors, not just volition. And don't assume it's the same as the sankhara nidana.

I don't see the relevance of SN 22.3 to this discussion. That's about conscious being bound to the other aggregates.
Buddha save me from new-agers!
JohnK
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Re: 📍The Sage at Peace is Not Born (Week of August 22, 2021)

Post by JohnK »

SDC wrote: Sun Aug 22, 2021 12:56 am Majjhima Nikāya
Dhātuvibhaṅgasutta (The Analysis of the Elements) MN 140
Translated by Bhikkhu Bodhi

  • ...By overcoming all conceivings, bhikkhu, one is called a sage at peace. And the sage at peace is not born... (emphasis added)
I have not had a chance this week to check in until now -- wow, much discussion; many page (the most so far I think).
Too much for me to read now -- forgive me if my brief comments here are out of tune with the previous discussion.

As SDC said in the introduction, this week is about nibbana, which I understand to be beyond conceiving (see above), beyond language -- hence there is some irony in that there has been so much of it here. :smile:
I think language (including Pali) is best used to describe the path, whereas the goal can only be hinted at -- pointed to by such things as "not born." I don't really expect to understand it from the use of language. (Of course, the goal is intriguing, and one wants to know it, wants to have it described -- oh well.)
To me, these suttas are inspirational, motivational for practice -- "what nibbana is" is well beyond my limited conceivings, a freedom that I can't conceive -- it is beyond "sutta study" if you will -- no offense!
Those who grasp at perceptions & views wander the internet creating friction. [based on Sn4:9,v.847]
Pulsar
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Re: 📍The Sage at Peace is Not Born (Week of August 22, 2021)

Post by Pulsar »

Spiny Norman wrote
I didn't say that. I said the fetters are part of the sankhara aggregate. Fetters are long-term underlying tendencies, which have to be progressively abandoned on the path. So I don't agree with your interpretation of them as repeatingly arising events.
The sankhara aggegrate is ill-defined in the suttas, but includes a wide range of mental factors, not just volition. And don't assume it's the same as the sankhara nidana. I don't see the relevance of SN 22.3 to this discussion. That's about conscious being bound to the other aggregates.
To me it looked like, we were discussing how self view "I am" arises on a momentary basis. I brought in SN 22.3 to show how self view arises with every newly arising vinnana.
Fetters would be located in Karmic consciousness AKA underlying tendencies. Underlying tendencies influence the arising of "I am" on a continuous basis. The view "I am" is initiated at contact.
  • The sankhara aggregate is not ill defined.
It is the 4th aggregate, which also continuously arises, and fades.
Sankhara aggregate and sankara nidana are one and the same.
On the other hand the word sankhara can apply to any and all mental formations, in the context of DO.
Why do you say Sankhara aggregate is ill defined? Is it not as well defined as the form aggregate, feeling aggregate, perception aggregate?
Be Well! :candle:
Spiny Norman
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Re: 📍The Sage at Peace is Not Born (Week of August 22, 2021)

Post by Spiny Norman »

Pulsar wrote: Thu Aug 26, 2021 8:52 pm Spiny Norman wrote
I didn't say that. I said the fetters are part of the sankhara aggregate. Fetters are long-term underlying tendencies, which have to be progressively abandoned on the path. So I don't agree with your interpretation of them as repeatingly arising events.
The sankhara aggegrate is ill-defined in the suttas, but includes a wide range of mental factors, not just volition. And don't assume it's the same as the sankhara nidana. I don't see the relevance of SN 22.3 to this discussion. That's about conscious being bound to the other aggregates.
To me it looked like, we were discussing how self view "I am" arises on a momentary basis. I brought in SN 22.3 to show how self view arises with every newly arising vinnana.
Fetters would be located in Karmic consciousness AKA underlying tendencies. Underlying tendencies influence the arising of "I am" on a continuous basis. The view "I am" is initiated at contact.
  • The sankhara aggregate is not ill defined.
It is the 4th aggregate, which also continuously arises, and fades.
Sankhara aggregate and sankara nidana are one and the same.
On the other hand the word sankhara can apply to any and all mental formations, in the context of DO.
Why do you say Sankhara aggregate is ill defined? Is it not as well defined as the form aggregate, feeling aggregate, perception aggregate?
Be Well! :candle:
I can't think of any suttas which give a comprehensive description of the sankhara aggregate. Sankhara has multiple meanings in the suttas, so I don't know where you get the idea that the aggregate is the same as the nidana.
The idea of the sankhara aggregate continually arising and ceasing seems to rely on a particular interpretation of DO, as does the idea that "I am" is initiated at contact.

And what is "karmic consciousness"? That's a new one on me.
Buddha save me from new-agers!
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equilibrium
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Re: 📍The Sage at Peace is Not Born (Week of August 22, 2021)

Post by equilibrium »

Pulsar wrote:
If there is no permanency in the dependently risen consciousness, how can impermanency hide a permanent mind free of flaws?
The conditioned consciousness is easy as it depends on something else which means it cannot be permanent.
Simple, one word.....conditioned.....the mind is merely covered / concealed by the ALL. A bit like the sun being hidden by clouds.....just because you cannot see it doesn't mean it is not there?
It goes against the entire teaching of the Buddha, which advices neither existence nor non-existence. Kaccayanagotta.
This is a misunderstanding. It is exactly what the buddha taught as the middle-way.
Now Pabhassara sutta tells me a pure radiant mind exists. Should I believe it?
Yes, but remember, a believe is only a believe, it is not a fact until you discover it isn't it?
O vanity! how i like to believe there is a radiance hiding beneath my muck filled mind. It makes my ego ride high. The sutta only leads to another attachment "My Radiant Mind"
As I have already mentioned in my posts, it is a very difficult subject to understand. On the surface, the mind might appears to you as an attachment but its clearly not the case when you truly understand. Its not what you think it is.....and it takes time to resolve these issues.

If it is not the mind then what do you think that escapes samsara?
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equilibrium
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Re: 📍The Sage at Peace is Not Born (Week of August 22, 2021)

Post by equilibrium »

Pulsar wrote:
Equilibrium wrote: 4. Knowledge and vision:
This is by far the most important bit of the teaching and what the buddha wanted you to see/experience.....and the most difficult to explain/express and understand.
I thought the most important bit of the teaching was Dependent Origination, and its reversal using the 8-fold path.
The teaching are merely a raft...for the purpose of getting those to the other shore....the knowledge and vision is the bit he wants you to see for yourself!
There is never a mind without a body. Enlightenment occurs as an embodied experience.
Really, that's a misunderstanding and fabrication.....that is not what the buddha taught, the middle way....the unborn, the unmade.
For the present purpose, we note that the peculiar idea of a ‘sentient corpse’ suggests that consciousness, sentience or awareness is inseparable from embodiment, and cannot be reduced to ‘mind’.
Merely a suggestion.
Such texts suggest that body and mind are experientially inseparable.
If so, liberation must also affect both body and mind, and meditation should transform both; this would also seem to be the message of the Brahmajāla Sutta. And perhaps this should make us wonder: might this understanding of mind and body have anything to do with the early Buddhist practice of bodily mindfulness?
Nothing much here either......there is a saying, "If one use his eyes, one is clearly blind!"
befriend
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Re: 📍The Sage at Peace is Not Born (Week of August 22, 2021)

Post by befriend »

"If there were not the unborn you could not know that escape from the born" it seems buddha is saying we can know the escape from the born before we have actually escaped from the born. What would be the unborn? Mindfulness?
Take care of mindfulness and mindfulness will take care of you.
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Nicolas
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Re: 📍The Sage at Peace is Not Born (Week of August 22, 2021)

Post by Nicolas »

befriend wrote: Thu Aug 26, 2021 11:54 pm What would be the unborn?
If there were not that unborn [...], there would not be the case that escape from the born [...] would be discerned.
Nibbāna Sutta (Ud 8.3)
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SDC
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Re: 📍The Sage at Peace is Not Born (Week of August 22, 2021)

Post by SDC »

Pulsar wrote: Thu Aug 26, 2021 3:02 pm To pick up a sign via eye, ear, tongue is like piercing these organs with a hot iron spike, Buddha admonishes, saying it is better to sleep than allow this.
I don’t see a fundamental difference. In the context of MN 20, they are distinguished by what arises on account giving attention to a certain type of sign:
…Here, bhikkhus, when a bhikkhu is giving attention to some sign, and owing to that sign there arise in him evil unwholesome thoughts connected with desire, with hate, and with delusion, then he should give attention to some other sign connected with what is wholesome.
But the meaning is the same. Signs imply certain directions and it is the work of the meditator to recognize the direction that is associated with wholesome. “Sign of the beautiful” is a great example: giving improper attention to it gives rise to sensual desire; but giving proper attention to the “sign of foulness” reduces sensual desire. I think the point is that these different directions are available and if the attention is not rightly set up there is that tendency to “grasp at signs and features”, which is attention that gives rise to unwholesome because it does not include what is wholesome.

Bringing it back to the topic, but still keeping with MN 20, it is the mind (citta) that will change shape/come together as a result of the wholesome direction. The bright and unlimited shape of the mind that has reached the unconditioned has that quality because the experience is free of greed, hate and delusion. Again there is the emphasis on what is there on account of what is not there.
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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