🟧 An advance on SN 47.7 (Week of September, 5, 2021)

Where we gather to focus on a single discourse or thematic collection from the Sutta Piṭaka (new selection every two weeks)
Locked
User avatar
SDC
Posts: 9058
Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2009 11:08 pm

🟧 An advance on SN 47.7 (Week of September, 5, 2021)

Post by SDC »

:reading:

SN 47.7 is a powerhouse. I find it a very unique take on the distinction between what is safe and what is not, and instead of deploying the typical “this is not mine” mantra towards that which is dangerous and subject to change, we find an entire domain of our experience explicitly described as the domain of others. This gives the impression that danger is not just where things are displeasing, harmful or overtly painful, but is found in forms, sounds, tastes, odors and touches that are desirable, tantalizing, or even just agreeable. In other words, SN 47.7 looks to be saying that comfort does not imply safety, and, on comfort alone, one could be within the domain of others, where Mara can access them.

A few items I found interesting before we get to the main event of SN 47.7:
SN 56.11 wrote:Now this, bhikkhus, is the noble truth of suffering: birth is suffering, aging is suffering, illness is suffering, death is suffering; union with what is displeasing is suffering; separation from what is pleasing is suffering; not to get what one wants is suffering; in brief, the five aggregates subject to clinging are suffering.
The realm of preference, of what is pleasing, or even of not wanting what is painful, is perhaps what is meant by “gratification”:
SN 35.13 wrote:The pleasure and joy that arise in dependence on the eye: this is the gratification in the eye…The pleasure and joy that arise in dependence on the ear … the nose … the tongue … the body … the mind: this is the gratification in the mind.
SN 35.238 wrote:The eye, bhikkhus, is attacked by agreeable and disagreeable forms. The ear … The nose … The tongue … The body … The mind is attacked by agreeable and disagreeable mental phenomena.
Now although SN 47.7 only mentions the first five senses, and exclusively in terms of the “five cords of sensual pleasure”, in SN 48.42, those five senses are said to have “recourse to the mind”, and the mind has recourse to mindfulness:
SN 48.42 wrote:Brahmin, these five faculties have different scopes and different ranges, and don’t experience each others’ scope and range. What five? The faculties of the eye, ear, nose, tongue, and body. These five faculties, with their different scopes and ranges, have recourse to the mind. And the mind experiences their scopes and ranges.”

“But Master Gotama, what does the mind have recourse to?”

“The mind has recourse to mindfulness.
So it would seem we can equate this description of the mind having “recourse to mindfulness” with what is described in SN 47.7 as moving to one’s “own resort”. Though this turn away from pleasure is not a turn away from happiness:
AN 9.34 wrote:Thus have I heard. On one occasion the Venerable Sāriputta was dwelling at Rājagaha in the Bamboo Grove, the squirrel sanctuary. There the Venerable Sāriputta addressed the bhikkhus: “Friends, bhikkhus!”

“Friend!” those bhikkhus replied. The Venerable Sāriputta said this:

“Happiness, friends, is this nibbāna. Happiness, friends, is this nibbāna.”

When this was said, the Venerable Udāyī said to the Venerable Sāriputta: “But, friend Sāriputta, what happiness could there be here when nothing is felt here?”

“Just this, friend, is the happiness here, that nothing is felt here.

“There are, friends, these five cords of sensual pleasure. What five? Forms cognizable by the eye that are wished for, desired, agreeable, pleasing, connected with sensual pleasure, tantalizing; sounds cognizable by the ear … odors cognizable by the nose … tastes cognizable by the tongue … tactile objects cognizable by the body that are wished for, desired, agreeable, pleasing, connected with sensual pleasure, tantalizing. These are the five cords of sensual pleasure. Any pleasure or joy that arises in dependence on these five cords of sensual pleasure is called sensual pleasure.

“Here, friends, secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unwholesome states, a bhikkhu enters and dwells in the first jhāna”
...
So as you read SN 47.7 below: can Mara get to us if we’re playing it too “safe” and relying on familiarity; on what is agreeable? Is basic complacency the same as the monkey stuck to the trap in five places? Thoughts on one’s own domain vs the domain of others?

Enjoy. :smile:

(I’m again experimenting with an expanded introduction with no follow-up. This seemed to lend itself to a more productive discussion two weeks ago. Feel free to address any of the above as long as it is within the context of SN 47.7. Let’s see how it works out this time.)
User avatar
SDC
Posts: 9058
Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2009 11:08 pm

📍 An advance on SN 47.7 (Week of September, 5, 2021)

Post by SDC »

:reading:

Saṁyutta Nikāya
Makkaṭasutta (The Monkey) SN 47.7 (PTS 5.149)
Translated by Bhikkhu Bodhi


  • “Bhikkhus, in the Himalayas, the king of mountains, there are rugged and uneven zones where neither monkeys nor human beings can go; there are rugged and uneven zones where monkeys can go but not human beings; there are even and delightful regions where both monkeys and human beings can go. There, along the monkey trails, hunters set out traps of pitch for catching monkeys.

    “Those monkeys who are not foolish and frivolous, when they see the pitch, avoid it from afar. But a monkey who is foolish and frivolous approaches the pitch and seizes it with his hand; he gets caught there. Thinking, ‘I will free my hand,’ he seizes it with his other hand; he gets caught there. Thinking, ‘I will free both hands,’ he seizes it with his foot; he gets caught there. Thinking, ‘I will free both hands and my foot,’ he seizes it with his other foot; he gets caught there.’ Thinking, ‘I will free both hands and feet,’ he applies his muzzle to it; he gets caught there.

    “Thus, bhikkhus, that monkey, trapped at five points, lies there screeching. He has met with calamity and disaster and the hunter can do with him as he wishes. The hunter spears him, fastens him to that same block of wood, and goes off where he wants. So it is, bhikkhus, when one strays outside one’s own resort into the domain of others.

    “Therefore, bhikkhus, do not stray outside your own resort into the domain of others. Mara will gain access to those who stray outside their own resort into the domain of others; Mara will get a hold on them.

    “And what is not a bhikkhu’s own resort but the domain of others? It is the five cords of sensual pleasure. What five? Forms cognizable by the eye that are desirable, lovely, agreeable, pleasing, sensually enticing, tantalizing. Sounds cognizable by the ear … Odours cognizable by the nose … Tastes cognizable by the tongue … Tactile objects cognizable by the body that are desirable, lovely, agreeable, pleasing, sensually enticing, tantalizing. These are the five cords of sensual pleasure. This is what is not a bhikkhu’s own resort but the domain of others.

    “Move in your own resort, bhikkhus, in your own ancestral domain. Mara will not gain access to those who move in their own resort, in their own ancestral domain; Mara will not get a hold on them.

    “And what is a bhikkhu’s resort, his own ancestral domain? It is the four establishments of mindfulness. What four? Here, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu dwells contemplating the body in the body, ardent, clearly comprehending, mindful, having removed covetousness and displeasure in regard to the world. He dwells contemplating feelings in feelings … mind in mind … phenomena in phenomena, ardent, clearly comprehending, mindful, having removed covetousness and displeasure in regard to the world. This is a bhikkhu’s resort, his own ancestral domain.”
ToVincent
Posts: 1839
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2016 6:02 pm

Re: 📍 An advance on SN 47.7 (Week of September, 5, 2021)

Post by ToVincent »

SDC wrote: Sun Sep 05, 2021 4:13 am Thoughts on one’s own domain vs the domain of others?
... the five cords of sensual pleasure ... is what is not a bhikkhu’s own resort, but the domain of others.
-----
... a bhikkhu’s resort, (his own ancestral domain) ... is the four ways to attain mindfulness.
(fr. SN 22.47)
INTRODUCTORY NOTE:
Anupassin/anupassī is an adjective (as red or happy - that is to say "contemplative" - which is the proper adjective from the verb "contemplate"); then anupassī becomes the "contemplative body" (or in a more proper English: the body that is contemplated).

However, anupaś [ anu-√ paś ], in Sanskrit, means to perceive, to notice. (RV, ŚBr., BṛĀr.Up, ChUp. ).

So "contemplative" might well be replaced by "perceptive", or "noticeable" (capable of being perceived). The latter ("perceptive", and "noticeable", being also both adjectives).

Then "ajjhattaṃ vā kāye kāyānupassī viharāhi" would become:.
"Internally, he fetches distinctively the noticeable body, in the body" .
But to put it even more properly in the context of mindfulness, it would be:
"Internally, he fetches distinctively the body that is capable to be perceived, in the body".
.
.
So one would have the more proper following definition:

Ajjhattaṃ vā kāye kāyānupassī viharāhi.
Internally, he fetches distinctively the body that is capable to be perceived, in the body (viz. in one’s own internal ("Fatherly") domain vs the external domain of maras) .
One can for instance, differentiate between the vitiated breath that is set upon oneself by maras — from the clean and pure breath that one has, when following the path of the Fathers*.
...
Ajjhattaṃ vā vedanāsu vedanānupassī viharāhi
Internally, he fetches distinctively the feeling that is capable to be perceived, in the feelings.
...
Ajjhattaṃ vā citte cittānupassī viharāhi
Internally, he fetches distinctively the citta that is capable to be perceived , in the citta.
...
Ajjhattaṃ vā dhammesu dhammānupassī viharāhi
Internally, he fetches distinctively the phenomena that is capable to be perceived, in the phenomenas.

kāya(m) - kaye = locative singular.
vedanā (f) - vedanāsu = locative plural
citta(nt) - citte = locative singular
dhamma (m) - dhammesu = locative plural

As an instance in our case — one would be able to perceive both the feeling outside (from the domain of others) - and the feeling inside oneself. Both being part of what we believe it to be, a single feeling.
[When there are indeed two involved - https://justpaste.it/1n1ii ]

Another instance would be — as when one is walking, or standing, etc. — to be aware of what one is sensing both externally and then internally.

In all cases, this involves pañña (differentiating).
And it also involves the all process of Satipaṭṭhānā - (lit. the way to attain mindfulness (sati**) — or the way to attain acquisition (sati) [of a liberated citta].
(Prasthāna = a way to attain, course).
** https://legacy.suttacentral.net/en/sn35.245/14-15 (bottom page).

Those who are "attacked" (so to speak), will be in a better position to experience the concept — and the implementation.

_____

The "ancestral (pettika/paitṛka) domain", is the path of the Fathers. It is the path that brought joy to the Fathers; and the path that one should follow - and it is also what brings joy, when the fathers are called; or when one follows their path.
To put it simply, the Fathers are those who got rewarded for their right conducts - and they live in a joyful place.

The Fathers that did not stay on earth, dwell below the Akasa.

________

Great study theme, as usual SDC - Thanks.
.
.
In this world, there are many people acting and yearning for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; and very few for the Unborn.
User avatar
SDC
Posts: 9058
Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2009 11:08 pm

Re: 📍 An advance on SN 47.7 (Week of September, 5, 2021)

Post by SDC »

ToVincent wrote: Mon Sep 06, 2021 6:46 pmAs an instance in our case — one would be able to perceive both the feeling outside (from the domain of others) - and the feeling inside oneself. Both being part of what we believe it to be, a single feeling.
It begs the question, is this the reason why the orthodox interpretation of internal and external has grown to literally include other people, even though “external” (in the case of feeling) likely has to do with feeling on account of this domain of sensuality (referred to here as “domain of others”)? Feeling in feeling seems to be very much in reference to the aggregates as heaps - you have particular manifestations of feeling but all share the nature of the feeling that is felt; this particular feeling in the scope of feeling in general, i.e. “knows “there is feeling” to the extent necessary…”

In terms of body - and your excerpt does a great job of emphasizing it - there is the body that appears on account of senses > sense which function on account of a living body; body in body. A living body that will not appear directly. It can be known - in the sense that it is a necessary condition for the body that appears - but that perception that indicates that knowledge is (as your excerpt says) the extent to which that aspect of it is “capable” to be known on account of perception. In other words, one has to know that knowledge isn’t concerned with direct access to an object, but direct knowledge of what an object implies. So the appearance of a body indicates a body on account of which that body appeared; body in body. (Not sure if you are familiar with any talks by Ajahn Nyanamoli, but he touches on this often. Always an interesting take.)
ToVincent wrote: Mon Sep 06, 2021 6:46 pm The "ancestral (pettika/paitṛka) domain", is the path of the Fathers. It is the path that brought joy to the Fathers; and the path that one should follow - and it is also what brings joy, when the fathers are called; or when one follows their path.
To put it simply, the Fathers are those who got rewarded for their right conducts - and they live in a joyful place.

The Fathers that did not stay on earth, dwell below the Akasa.
Now this is another interesting bit, but I’m curious as to it’s usage in this particular case since it is in reference to a domain that is perpetually available even when not discovered. The direction of mindfulness is foundational, in the sense that it can reveal the reason for the endless wandering on. From that point of view it is the closest we can get to the ignorance that has always been, thus it makes sense to call it an ancestral or paternal domain.
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
JohnK
Posts: 1332
Joined: Wed Jan 06, 2016 11:06 pm
Location: Tetons, Wyoming, USA

Re: 📍 An advance on SN 47.7 (Week of September, 5, 2021)

Post by JohnK »

SDC wrote: Sun Sep 05, 2021 4:14 am :reading:

Saṁyutta Nikāya
Makkaṭasutta (The Monkey) SN 47.7 (PTS 5.149)
Translated by Bhikkhu Bodhi


  • “Bhikkhus, in the Himalayas, the king of mountains, there are rugged and uneven zones where neither monkeys nor human beings can go; there are rugged and uneven zones where monkeys can go but not human beings; there are even and delightful regions where both monkeys and human beings can go. There, along the monkey trails, hunters set out traps of pitch for catching monkeys...
For us monkeys to avoid foolishness, we must inhabit the "rugged and uneven zones."
I need to take that metaphorically as well as literally! :)
Those who grasp at perceptions & views wander the internet creating friction. [based on Sn4:9,v.847]
un8-
Posts: 747
Joined: Mon Jul 05, 2021 6:49 am

Re: 📍 An advance on SN 47.7 (Week of September, 5, 2021)

Post by un8- »

Once upon a time, mendicants, a tortoise was grazing along the bank of a river in the afternoon. At the same time, a jackal was also hunting along the river bank. The tortoise saw the jackal off in the distance hunting, so it drew its limbs and neck inside its shell, and kept passive and silent.

But the jackal also saw the tortoise off in the distance grazing. So it went up to the tortoise and waiting nearby, thinking, ‘When that tortoise sticks one or other of its limbs or neck out from its shell, I’ll grab it right there, rip it out, and eat it!’

But when that tortoise didn’t stick one or other of its limbs or neck out from its shell, the jackal left disappointed, since it couldn’t find a vulnerability.

In the same way, Māra the Wicked is always waiting nearby, thinking: ‘Hopefully I can find a vulnerability in the eye, ear, nose, tongue, body, or mind.’ That’s why you should live with sense doors guarded.
https://suttacentral.net/sn35.240/en/sujato

You'd only leave your shell if you thought there was something worth pursuing.

The issue is when one needs to leave the shell to survive, like buying food, it's easy to get carried away when you see everyone else enjoying themselves.

The problem is doubt "what if there is no nibbana, what if the dhamma we have today is the wrong dhamma, what if the Buddha is not real", etc..

and I think that's why it's important to see sensual desires as painful for yourself, that way the Buddha, nibbana, and all those topics become irrelevant. You won't chase something and leave your shell simply because you see that it's not worth chasing. "What's the point? it's impermanent, I'll lose it anyway". Which is the attitude you already have towards things you don't care about, you just have to apply the same attitude to things you care about. You only care about those things because you refuse to look at their drawbacks, which is what you do already towards other things.
There is only one battle that could be won, and that is the battle against the 3 poisons. Any other battle is a guaranteed loss because you're going to die either way.
ToVincent
Posts: 1839
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2016 6:02 pm

Re: 📍 An advance on SN 47.7 (Week of September, 5, 2021)

Post by ToVincent »

SDC wrote: Tue Sep 07, 2021 4:41 pm...
Maybe things are a bit less challenging and elusive than it seems.

There are two ways to experience. An experience that comes from the "other" (in which one is also involved) - OR an experience that comes strictly from oneself.

The former implies to be aware at the same time, of what the other brings to the experience - while being aware of one's own experience.
The latter implies to be aware of both the external and internal experience, when one "carries out" some gesture (like walking, standing, stretching, etc.).
This is how things SHOULD be experienced - but are usually not.

If the latter is more appropriate for training purposes, what interests us here, is how and where the "other" gets involved in our experience.
What interests us here, is the range (gocaro) in which an experience SHOULD be sensed.
_______

It is just about knowing the range (gocaro), of either the maras or the unwitting human on one side — and the range of the cognizant human on the other side.

The former will sense-experience as a whole. The range in this instance, is always external + internal. No limit in between.
The scope encompasses the descent from the namarupa nidana (the call) - until the upadana nidana (appropriation - lit. to wish to take upon oneself) — the "this is mine" stuff - ("this is my kind of chew").

The latter (the cognizant human,) SHOULD sense-experience, being aware that the external is one dhamma, and the internal another dhamma.
A dhamma being the "sankharization" of the khandhas.
(https://justpaste.it/1n1ii — again, arrow 1 for the external - arrow 2 for the internal).

The range of a sense-experience for the cognizant human, is the limit between the external and the internal.
One should be aware that on one side, there is a "carrying out" that is different from the "carrying out", on the other side of that limit.

Staying in one's own range is to deal with an experience, being aware of that limit. That is to say being able to discern and discriminate (pañña,) between what is "carried out" by the other, and what is "carried out" by oneself.

Pañña or not pañña? — that is the question.

Later on, one will also understand that what one experiences internally, is not "his one's own" (arrow 2). This is when one becomes also cognizant of this is not "I" .

Cetovimutti or not cetovimutti? — will be the question.

------------

Staying in the "domain" (visaya) of the Fathers (pettika [pitar/pitṛ]), is about "carrying out" this proper manner of operating. It is about performing pañña the right way.

Visaya (viṣaya - विषय) has no occurence in the pre-Buddhist literature, afaik.
One must rely on the pre-Buddhist root of √ विष् = "to act", "to perform" - RV. ŚBr.
Therefore, instead of translating visaya by "domain", one should translate it more properly as the "carrying out" of the Fathers — (who live in joy [pamoda,] in the southern quarter, in the Vedic tradition - due to their proper way of using this knowledge, as distinguished from merely possesing it).
He rejoices here, he rejoices after death, in both states does the well-doer rejoice.
He rejoices, he is happy, having seen his own cleansed (visuddhim = vi-sujjhati) deeds.
idha modati pecca modati katapuñño ubhayattha modati
so modati so pamodati disvā kammavisuddhim attano
(DhP 16)

.
.
In this world, there are many people acting and yearning for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; and very few for the Unborn.
User avatar
SDC
Posts: 9058
Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2009 11:08 pm

Re: 📍 An advance on SN 47.7 (Week of September, 5, 2021)

Post by SDC »

un8- wrote: Wed Sep 08, 2021 6:34 am
Once upon a time, mendicants, a tortoise was grazing along the bank of a river in the afternoon. At the same time, a jackal was also hunting along the river bank. The tortoise saw the jackal off in the distance hunting, so it drew its limbs and neck inside its shell, and kept passive and silent.

But the jackal also saw the tortoise off in the distance grazing. So it went up to the tortoise and waiting nearby, thinking, ‘When that tortoise sticks one or other of its limbs or neck out from its shell, I’ll grab it right there, rip it out, and eat it!’

But when that tortoise didn’t stick one or other of its limbs or neck out from its shell, the jackal left disappointed, since it couldn’t find a vulnerability.

In the same way, Māra the Wicked is always waiting nearby, thinking: ‘Hopefully I can find a vulnerability in the eye, ear, nose, tongue, body, or mind.’ That’s why you should live with sense doors guarded.
https://suttacentral.net/sn35.240/en/sujato

You'd only leave your shell if you thought there was something worth pursuing.

The issue is when one needs to leave the shell to survive, like buying food, it's easy to get carried away when you see everyone else enjoying themselves.

The problem is doubt "what if there is no nibbana, what if the dhamma we have today is the wrong dhamma, what if the Buddha is not real", etc..

and I think that's why it's important to see sensual desires as painful for yourself, that way the Buddha, nibbana, and all those topics become irrelevant. You won't chase something and leave your shell simply because you see that it's not worth chasing. "What's the point? it's impermanent, I'll lose it anyway". Which is the attitude you already have towards things you don't care about, you just have to apply the same attitude to things you care about. You only care about those things because you refuse to look at their drawbacks, which is what you do already towards other things.
Good post, un8-, and very relevant sutta.
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
User avatar
SDC
Posts: 9058
Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2009 11:08 pm

Re: 📍 An advance on SN 47.7 (Week of September, 5, 2021)

Post by SDC »

ToVincent wrote: Wed Sep 08, 2021 8:39 am
Very interesting stuff, ToVincent.
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
ToVincent
Posts: 1839
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2016 6:02 pm

Re: 📍 An advance on SN 47.7 (Week of September, 5, 2021)

Post by ToVincent »

For those interested in the ways to attain Sati (Satipaṭṭhānā) , this is an html file that allows you to read, column by column and row by row, the commonalities between MN 18/ SN 54.13 (Ānāpānasati) ; MN 19 (Kāyagatāsati); and MN 10 / DN 22 / MA 98 / EA 12.1 (Satipaṭṭhānā).

https://justpaste.it/6dqdw

These are the original translations. I have not changed them, afaik.
I don't agree with them - but I don't want to alter them in this case.

Just copy the html code in a text file, and change the .txt extension to a .htm — Then run it in your browser.
.
.
In this world, there are many people acting and yearning for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; and very few for the Unborn.
Locked