Does the Buddha in the suttas ever state or strongly imply that the four elements are microscopic?

Exploring the Dhamma, as understood from the perspective of the ancient Pali commentaries.
zan
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Does the Buddha in the suttas ever state or strongly imply that the four elements are microscopic?

Post by zan »

If it's not in the suttas, where does this notion come from? Is it just because it was a standard assumption at the time the Buddha lived, and, so, he didn't need to specify?
Kalapa or rupa-kalapa (from Sanskrit rūpa "form, phenomenon" and kalāpa "bundle") is a term in Theravada Buddhist phenomenology for the smallest units of physical matter, said to be about 1/46,656th the size of a particle of dust from a wheel of chariot.[1] Kalapas are not mentioned in the earliest Buddhists texts, such as the Tripitaka, but only in the Abhidhammattha-sangaha, an Abhidhamma commentary dated to the 11th or 12th century, and as such not part of common Theravada doctrine.[2]

According to the description found in the Abhidhammattha-sangaha, Kalapas are said to be invisible under normal circumstances but visible as a result of meditative samadhi.[3] Kalapas are composed of eight inseparable elements of material essence in varying amounts which are:[4] Pathavi (earth), Apo (water), Tejo (fire), Vayo (air), Vanna (color), Gandha (smell), Rasa (taste), and Oja (nutrition). The first four elements are called primary qualities, and are predominant in kalapas. The other four are secondary properties that derive from the primaries.[5] Certain kalapas are said to also include additional elements, including sound, sex, body, mind-base and life.[6][7]
-Wikipedia on Kalapa
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"If we base ourselves on the Pali Nikayas, then we should be compelled to conclude that Buddhism is realistic. There is no explicit denial anywhere of the external world. Nor is there any positive evidence to show that the world is mind-made or simply a projection of subjective thoughts. That Buddhism recognizes the extra-mental existence of matter and the external world is clearly suggested by the texts. Throughout the discourses it is the language of realism that one encounters.
-Y. Karunadasa
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DooDoot
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Re: Does the Buddha in the suttas ever state or strongly imply that the four elements are microscopic?

Post by DooDoot »

refer to MN 62
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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zan
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Re: Does the Buddha in the suttas ever state or strongly imply that the four elements are microscopic?

Post by zan »

DooDoot wrote: Thu Sep 09, 2021 4:48 am refer to MN 62
Thanks. Just read the whole thing, but I don't see even a single place where the elements are described or implied to be microscopic. Could you please quote the specific lines you are meaning?
Assume all of my words on dhamma could be incorrect. Seek an arahant for truth.


"If we base ourselves on the Pali Nikayas, then we should be compelled to conclude that Buddhism is realistic. There is no explicit denial anywhere of the external world. Nor is there any positive evidence to show that the world is mind-made or simply a projection of subjective thoughts. That Buddhism recognizes the extra-mental existence of matter and the external world is clearly suggested by the texts. Throughout the discourses it is the language of realism that one encounters.
-Y. Karunadasa
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Re: Does the Buddha in the suttas ever state or strongly imply that the four elements are microscopic?

Post by sphairos »

No, it is never implied in the early sources.

Buddhist theory of atomism developed under the influence of Indian theories of atomism in the late Abhidharma period.

See
https://www.themindingcentre.org/dharma ... m-piya.pdf

and Y. Karunadasa "Buddhist Analysis of Matter" (1967)

and in the Abhidharma-kośa-bhāṣya there is a long discussion of the structure of "a Buddhist atom".
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DooDoot
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Re: Does the Buddha in the suttas ever state or strongly imply that the four elements are microscopic?

Post by DooDoot »

zan wrote: Thu Sep 09, 2021 3:51 pm I don't see even a single place where the elements are described or implied to be microscopic.
Yes.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Re: Does the Buddha in the suttas ever state or strongly imply that the four elements are microscopic?

Post by mjaviem »

The Buddha was only concerned to explain suffering and the end of suffering. He didn't teach about physics, cosmology, religion, breeding animals or anything other than dukkha. We shall only look in the suttas for an answer to how to get free from suffering.
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Re: Does the Buddha in the suttas ever state or strongly imply that the four elements are microscopic?

Post by Ceisiwr »

mjaviem wrote: Thu Sep 09, 2021 9:38 pm The Buddha was only concerned to explain suffering and the end of suffering. He didn't teach about physics, cosmology, religion, breeding animals or anything other than dukkha. We shall only look in the suttas for an answer to how to get free from suffering.
Buddhadhamma is a religion.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Does the Buddha in the suttas ever state or strongly imply that the four elements are microscopic?

Post by mjaviem »

Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Sep 09, 2021 10:00 pm Buddhadhamma is a religion.
Agree. But the Buddha didn't teach religion. He only taught dukkha and liberation. It became a religion thereafter, I agree.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Does the Buddha in the suttas ever state or strongly imply that the four elements are microscopic?

Post by Ceisiwr »

mjaviem wrote: Thu Sep 09, 2021 10:06 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Sep 09, 2021 10:00 pm Buddhadhamma is a religion.
Agree. But the Buddha didn't teach religion. He only taught dukkha and liberation. It became a religion thereafter, I agree.
He taught a religion.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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mjaviem
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Re: Does the Buddha in the suttas ever state or strongly imply that the four elements are microscopic?

Post by mjaviem »

Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Sep 09, 2021 10:22 pm ...

He taught a religion.
Yes, a religion to end suffering. No more than that. If he refers to the four elements he is not teaching about physics, we only need to ask what did he refer to by saying the four elements. Or if he refers to heaven and hell, we only need to ask what did he refer to by saying heaven and hell.
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Re: Does the Buddha in the suttas ever state or strongly imply that the four elements are microscopic?

Post by cappuccino »

mjaviem wrote: Thu Sep 09, 2021 10:36 pm what did he refer to by saying heaven and hell
The Thirty-one Planes of Existence

:reading:
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Re: Does the Buddha in the suttas ever state or strongly imply that the four elements are microscopic?

Post by zan »

sphairos wrote: Thu Sep 09, 2021 5:21 pm No, it is never implied in the early sources.

Buddhist theory of atomism developed under the influence of Indian theories of atomism in the late Abhidharma period.

See
...

and Y. Karunadasa "Buddhist Analysis of Matter" (1967)

and in the Abhidharma-kośa-bhāṣya there is a long discussion of the structure of "a Buddhist atom".
Thanks. Have you read the Karunadasa book? What is the authors position? Is he explaining orthodox abhidhamma? Or trying to disprove it or explain it differently than the orthodox positions as represented by the abhidhammattha sangaha and similar texts?

In other words, what is his angle? Is he promoting abhidhamma as dhamma realism? Or something else?
Assume all of my words on dhamma could be incorrect. Seek an arahant for truth.


"If we base ourselves on the Pali Nikayas, then we should be compelled to conclude that Buddhism is realistic. There is no explicit denial anywhere of the external world. Nor is there any positive evidence to show that the world is mind-made or simply a projection of subjective thoughts. That Buddhism recognizes the extra-mental existence of matter and the external world is clearly suggested by the texts. Throughout the discourses it is the language of realism that one encounters.
-Y. Karunadasa
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Re: Does the Buddha in the suttas ever state or strongly imply that the four elements are microscopic?

Post by DooDoot »

Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Sep 09, 2021 10:00 pm Buddhadhamma is a religion.
Buddhadhamma is a dhamma.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Re: Does the Buddha in the suttas ever state or strongly imply that the four elements are microscopic?

Post by Mr. Seek »

Spot on replies by mjaviem.
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Re: Does the Buddha in the suttas ever state or strongly imply that the four elements are microscopic?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Zan,
zan wrote: Thu Sep 09, 2021 3:18 am If it's not in the suttas, where does this notion come from?
You've kind of answered your own question with the quote you provided in the original post.

All I'd add to that is to see how the Simsapa Sutta applies to this situation.

Metta,
Paul. :)
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