Kalapa or rupa-kalapa (from Sanskrit rūpa "form, phenomenon" and kalāpa "bundle") is a term in Theravada Buddhist phenomenology for the smallest units of physical matter, said to be about 1/46,656th the size of a particle of dust from a wheel of chariot.[1] Kalapas are not mentioned in the earliest Buddhists texts, such as the Tripitaka, but only in the Abhidhammattha-sangaha, an Abhidhamma commentary dated to the 11th or 12th century, and as such not part of common Theravada doctrine.[2]
According to the description found in the Abhidhammattha-sangaha, Kalapas are said to be invisible under normal circumstances but visible as a result of meditative samadhi.[3] Kalapas are composed of eight inseparable elements of material essence in varying amounts which are:[4] Pathavi (earth), Apo (water), Tejo (fire), Vayo (air), Vanna (color), Gandha (smell), Rasa (taste), and Oja (nutrition). The first four elements are called primary qualities, and are predominant in kalapas. The other four are secondary properties that derive from the primaries.[5] Certain kalapas are said to also include additional elements, including sound, sex, body, mind-base and life.[6][7]
-Wikipedia on Kalapa
Does the Buddha in the suttas ever state or strongly imply that the four elements are microscopic?
Does the Buddha in the suttas ever state or strongly imply that the four elements are microscopic?
If it's not in the suttas, where does this notion come from? Is it just because it was a standard assumption at the time the Buddha lived, and, so, he didn't need to specify?
Assume all of my words on dhamma could be incorrect. Seek an arahant for truth.
"If we base ourselves on the Pali Nikayas, then we should be compelled to conclude that Buddhism is realistic. There is no explicit denial anywhere of the external world. Nor is there any positive evidence to show that the world is mind-made or simply a projection of subjective thoughts. That Buddhism recognizes the extra-mental existence of matter and the external world is clearly suggested by the texts. Throughout the discourses it is the language of realism that one encounters.
-Y. Karunadasa
"If we base ourselves on the Pali Nikayas, then we should be compelled to conclude that Buddhism is realistic. There is no explicit denial anywhere of the external world. Nor is there any positive evidence to show that the world is mind-made or simply a projection of subjective thoughts. That Buddhism recognizes the extra-mental existence of matter and the external world is clearly suggested by the texts. Throughout the discourses it is the language of realism that one encounters.
-Y. Karunadasa
Re: Does the Buddha in the suttas ever state or strongly imply that the four elements are microscopic?
refer to MN 62
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
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Re: Does the Buddha in the suttas ever state or strongly imply that the four elements are microscopic?
Thanks. Just read the whole thing, but I don't see even a single place where the elements are described or implied to be microscopic. Could you please quote the specific lines you are meaning?
Assume all of my words on dhamma could be incorrect. Seek an arahant for truth.
"If we base ourselves on the Pali Nikayas, then we should be compelled to conclude that Buddhism is realistic. There is no explicit denial anywhere of the external world. Nor is there any positive evidence to show that the world is mind-made or simply a projection of subjective thoughts. That Buddhism recognizes the extra-mental existence of matter and the external world is clearly suggested by the texts. Throughout the discourses it is the language of realism that one encounters.
-Y. Karunadasa
"If we base ourselves on the Pali Nikayas, then we should be compelled to conclude that Buddhism is realistic. There is no explicit denial anywhere of the external world. Nor is there any positive evidence to show that the world is mind-made or simply a projection of subjective thoughts. That Buddhism recognizes the extra-mental existence of matter and the external world is clearly suggested by the texts. Throughout the discourses it is the language of realism that one encounters.
-Y. Karunadasa
Re: Does the Buddha in the suttas ever state or strongly imply that the four elements are microscopic?
No, it is never implied in the early sources.
Buddhist theory of atomism developed under the influence of Indian theories of atomism in the late Abhidharma period.
See
https://www.themindingcentre.org/dharma ... m-piya.pdf
and Y. Karunadasa "Buddhist Analysis of Matter" (1967)
and in the Abhidharma-kośa-bhāṣya there is a long discussion of the structure of "a Buddhist atom".
Buddhist theory of atomism developed under the influence of Indian theories of atomism in the late Abhidharma period.
See
https://www.themindingcentre.org/dharma ... m-piya.pdf
and Y. Karunadasa "Buddhist Analysis of Matter" (1967)
and in the Abhidharma-kośa-bhāṣya there is a long discussion of the structure of "a Buddhist atom".
How good and wonderful are your days,
How true are your ways?
How true are your ways?
Re: Does the Buddha in the suttas ever state or strongly imply that the four elements are microscopic?
Yes.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
Re: Does the Buddha in the suttas ever state or strongly imply that the four elements are microscopic?
The Buddha was only concerned to explain suffering and the end of suffering. He didn't teach about physics, cosmology, religion, breeding animals or anything other than dukkha. We shall only look in the suttas for an answer to how to get free from suffering.
Namo Tassa Bhagavato Arahato Sammā Sambuddhassa
Re: Does the Buddha in the suttas ever state or strongly imply that the four elements are microscopic?
Buddhadhamma is a religion.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
Re: Does the Buddha in the suttas ever state or strongly imply that the four elements are microscopic?
Agree. But the Buddha didn't teach religion. He only taught dukkha and liberation. It became a religion thereafter, I agree.
Namo Tassa Bhagavato Arahato Sammā Sambuddhassa
Re: Does the Buddha in the suttas ever state or strongly imply that the four elements are microscopic?
He taught a religion.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
Re: Does the Buddha in the suttas ever state or strongly imply that the four elements are microscopic?
Yes, a religion to end suffering. No more than that. If he refers to the four elements he is not teaching about physics, we only need to ask what did he refer to by saying the four elements. Or if he refers to heaven and hell, we only need to ask what did he refer to by saying heaven and hell.
Namo Tassa Bhagavato Arahato Sammā Sambuddhassa
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Re: Does the Buddha in the suttas ever state or strongly imply that the four elements are microscopic?
Thanks. Have you read the Karunadasa book? What is the authors position? Is he explaining orthodox abhidhamma? Or trying to disprove it or explain it differently than the orthodox positions as represented by the abhidhammattha sangaha and similar texts?sphairos wrote: ↑Thu Sep 09, 2021 5:21 pm No, it is never implied in the early sources.
Buddhist theory of atomism developed under the influence of Indian theories of atomism in the late Abhidharma period.
See
...
and Y. Karunadasa "Buddhist Analysis of Matter" (1967)
and in the Abhidharma-kośa-bhāṣya there is a long discussion of the structure of "a Buddhist atom".
In other words, what is his angle? Is he promoting abhidhamma as dhamma realism? Or something else?
Assume all of my words on dhamma could be incorrect. Seek an arahant for truth.
"If we base ourselves on the Pali Nikayas, then we should be compelled to conclude that Buddhism is realistic. There is no explicit denial anywhere of the external world. Nor is there any positive evidence to show that the world is mind-made or simply a projection of subjective thoughts. That Buddhism recognizes the extra-mental existence of matter and the external world is clearly suggested by the texts. Throughout the discourses it is the language of realism that one encounters.
-Y. Karunadasa
"If we base ourselves on the Pali Nikayas, then we should be compelled to conclude that Buddhism is realistic. There is no explicit denial anywhere of the external world. Nor is there any positive evidence to show that the world is mind-made or simply a projection of subjective thoughts. That Buddhism recognizes the extra-mental existence of matter and the external world is clearly suggested by the texts. Throughout the discourses it is the language of realism that one encounters.
-Y. Karunadasa
Re: Does the Buddha in the suttas ever state or strongly imply that the four elements are microscopic?
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
Re: Does the Buddha in the suttas ever state or strongly imply that the four elements are microscopic?
Spot on replies by mjaviem.
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Re: Does the Buddha in the suttas ever state or strongly imply that the four elements are microscopic?
Greetings Zan,
All I'd add to that is to see how the Simsapa Sutta applies to this situation.
Metta,
Paul.
You've kind of answered your own question with the quote you provided in the original post.
All I'd add to that is to see how the Simsapa Sutta applies to this situation.
Metta,
Paul.
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."