🟩 Nutriment (āhāra) Part One and Two (Weeks of October 3 and 10, 2021)

[SDC]

For the next two weeks we will take an in depth look at prominent occurrences of the term āhāra (nutriment). For the first week, the four kinds of nutriment, relevance in paṭiccasamuppāda, and why it matters when it comes to the five hindrances. The second week will be some more about five hindrances, enlightenment factors, and the place of nutriment when it comes to consciousness and cessation. The goal here is to not only strengthen the meaning of the term for our own work, but to get a better understanding of why it relates so closely to so many important aspects of the path. There are many references to support and dependency in the suttas, but cases of nutriment are unique and provide a good opportunity to understand what a supporting condition actually looks like, by way of both literal and non-literal descriptions.

Questions to bear in mind as they read is this: are these universal truths? Is this an eternal principle? Food, for instance: is the body always dependent on nutriment in that universal sense? Or is this principle simply describing a particular instance of the physiological process of ingestion and digestion for this body here and now? Yet, even if these were descriptions of particular cases of nutriment, wouldn't it still be universally true that the body needs food? Whether it be past, present or future? In short, how broadly should a nutriment be understood?

No follow-up post this week. Please use the OP and footnotes for discussion points.

Enjoy.

[SDC]

Saṁyutta Nikāya
Āhārasutta (Nutriment) SN 12.11 (PTS 2.12)
Translated by Bhikkhu Bodhi

• Thus have I heard. On one occasion the Blessed One was dwelling at Savatthī in Jeta’s Grove, Anathapiṇḍika’s Park….
  
  “Bhikkhus, there are these four kinds of nutriment for the maintenance of beings that have already come to be and for the assistance of those about to come to be. What four? The nutriment edible food, gross or subtle; second, contact; third, mental volition; fourth, consciousness. These are the four kinds of nutriment for the maintenance of beings that have already come to be and for the assistance of those about to come to be.
  
  “Bhikkhus, these four kinds of nutriment have what as their source, what as their origin, from what are they born and produced? These four kinds of nutriment have craving as their source, craving as their origin; they are born and produced from craving.
  
  “And this craving has what as its source, what as its origin, from what is it born and produced? This craving has feeling as its source, feeling as its origin; it is born and produced from feeling.
  
  “And this feeling has what as its source…? Feeling has contact as its source…. And this contact has what as its source…? Contact has the six sense bases as its source…. And these six sense bases have what as their source…? The six sense bases have name-and-form as their source…. And this name-and-form has what as its source…? Name-and-form has consciousness as its source…. And this consciousness has what as its source…? Consciousness has volitional formations as its source…. And these volitional formations have what as their source, what as their origin, from what are they born and produced? Volitional formations have ignorance as their source, ignorance as their origin; they are born and produced from ignorance.
  
  “Thus, bhikkhus, with ignorance as condition, volitional formations come to be; with volitional formations as condition, consciousness…. Such is the origin of this whole mass of suffering. But with the remainderless fading away and cessation of ignorance comes cessation of volitional formations; with the cessation of volitional formations, cessation of consciousness…. Such is the cessation of this whole mass of suffering.”

Notes: The reason I chose this for the first sutta in this study is the clear description of nutriment as a supporting condition in a manner very closely related to that of paṭiccasamuppāda. Nutriment āhāra is "for the maintenance of beings". It is a thing without which another thing would not persist. Without edible food body would break down. SN 46.2: "Bhikkhus, just as this body, sustained by nutriment, subsists in dependence on nutriment and does not subsist without nutriment....

Now, taking into consideration craving - it is the source of the four types of nutriment, but - same as above - how should we understand that relationship? Should we take this as particular instances of craving or its general presence that is the source of these nutriments? (Please see SN 12.34, which describes paṭiccasamuppāda in the three times, and SN 56.46, which describes saṅkhāra as a universal condition of samsara.)

[SDC]

Majjhima Nikāya
Mahātaṇhāsaṅkhayasutta (The Greater Discourse on the Destruction of Craving) MN 38 (PTS 1.257–1.271)
Translated by Bhikkhu Bodhi

• [Excerpt]
  …
  “Bhikkhus, do you see: ‘This has come to be’?”—“Yes, venerable sir.”—“Bhikkhus, do you see: ‘Its origination occurs with that as nutriment’?”—“Yes, venerable sir.”—“Bhikkhus, do you see: ‘With the cessation of that nutriment, what has come to be is subject to cessation’?”—“Yes, venerable sir.”
  
  “Bhikkhus, does doubt arise when one is uncertain thus: ‘Has this come to be’?”—“Yes, venerable sir.”—“Bhikkhus, does doubt arise when one is uncertain thus: ‘Does its origination occur with that as nutriment’?”—“Yes, venerable sir.”—“Bhikkhus, does doubt arise when one is uncertain thus: ‘With the cessation of that nutriment, is what has come to be subject to cessation’?”—“Yes, venerable sir.”
  
  “Bhikkhus, is doubt abandoned in one who sees as it actually is with proper wisdom thus: ‘This has come to be’?”—“Yes, venerable sir.”—“Bhikkhus, is doubt abandoned in one who sees as it actually is with proper wisdom thus: ‘Its origination occurs with that as nutriment’?”—“Yes, venerable sir.”—“Bhikkhus, is doubt abandoned in one who sees as it actually is with proper wisdom thus: ‘With the cessation of that nutriment, what has come to be is subject to cessation’?”—“Yes, venerable sir.”
  
  “Bhikkhus, are you thus free from doubt here: ‘This has come to be’?”—“Yes, venerable sir.”—“Bhikkhus, are you thus free from doubt here: ‘Its origination occurs with that as nutriment’?” —“Yes, venerable sir.”—“Bhikkhus, are you thus free from doubt here: ‘With the cessation of that nutriment, what has come to be is subject to cessation’?”—“Yes, venerable sir.”
  
  “Bhikkhus, has it been seen well by you as it actually is with proper wisdom thus: ‘This has come to be’?”—“Yes, venerable sir.”—“Bhikkhus, has it been seen well by you as it actually is with proper wisdom thus: ‘Its origination occurs with that as nutriment’?”—“Yes, venerable sir.”—“Bhikkhus, has it been seen well by you as it actually is with proper wisdom thus: ‘With the cessation of that nutriment, what has come to be is subject to cessation’?”—“Yes, venerable sir.”
  
  “Bhikkhus, purified and bright as this view is, if you adhere to it, cherish it, treasure it, and treat it as a possession, would you then understand that the Dhamma has been taught as similar to a raft, being for the purpose of crossing over, not for the purpose of grasping?”—“No, venerable sir.”—“Bhikkhus, purified and bright as this view is, if you do not adhere to it, cherish it, treasure it, and treat it as a possession, would you then understand that the Dhamma has been taught as similar to a raft, being for the purpose of crossing over, not for the purpose of grasping?”—“Yes, venerable sir.”
  
  “Bhikkhus, there are these four kinds of nutriment for the maintenance of beings that already have come to be and for the support of those about to come to be. What four? They are: physical food as nutriment, gross or subtle; contact as the second; mental volition as the third; and consciousness as the fourth.
  
  “Now, bhikkhus, these four kinds of nutriment have what as their source, what as their origin, from what are they born and produced? These four kinds of nutriment have craving as their source, craving as their origin; they are born and produced from craving. And this craving has what as its source…? Craving has feeling as its source…And this feeling has what as its source…? Feeling has contact as its source…And this contact has what as its source…? Contact has the sixfold base as its source…And this sixfold base has what as its source…? The sixfold base has mentality-materiality as its source…And this mentality-materiality has what as its source…? Mentality-materiality has consciousness as its source…And this consciousness has what as its source…? Consciousness has formations as its source…And these formations have what as their source, what as their origin, from what are they born and produced? Formations have ignorance as their source, ignorance as their origin; they are born and produced from ignorance.
  
  “So, bhikkhus, with ignorance as condition, formations come to be; with formations as condition, consciousness; with consciousness as condition, mentality-materiality; with mentality-materiality as condition, the sixfold base; with the sixfold base as condition, contact; with contact as condition, feeling; with feeling as condition, craving; with craving as condition, clinging; with clinging as condition, being; with being as condition, birth; with birth as condition, ageing and death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, and despair come to be. Such is the origin of this whole mass of suffering.
  … Read more…

Notes: Again, seems like a clear comparison to paṭiccasamuppāda: ‘With the cessation of that nutriment, what has come to be is subject to cessation’, and just like the previous sutta, it goes into the complete description of PS. Is it fair to say that saṅkhāra and nutriment share that same quality of being that supporting condition? Some food for thought:

SN 56.46: Those ascetics and brahmins, bhikkhu, who do not understand as it really is: ‘This is suffering’; who do not understand as it really is: ‘This is the origin of suffering’; who do not understand as it really is: ‘This is the cessation of suffering’; who do not understand as it really is: ‘This is the way leading to the cessation of suffering’—they delight in volitional formations that lead to birth, in volitional formations that lead to aging, in volitional formations that lead to death, in volitional formations that lead to sorrow, lamentation, pain, displeasure, and despair. Delighting in such volitional formations, they generate volitional formations that lead to birth, generate volitional formations that lead to aging, generate volitional formations that lead to death, generate volitional formations that lead to sorrow, lamentation, pain, displeasure, and despair.

All of SN 56.46 is fascinating - saṅkhāra is used to describe that which "leads" to birth/aging/death, and also it is saṅkhāra that generates further saṅkhāra, which leads to birth/aging/death.

Just a bit more on saṅkhāra (as volitional formations):

SN 22.79: “And why, bhikkhus, do you call them volitional formations? ‘They construct the conditioned,’ bhikkhus, therefore they are called volitional formations. And what is the conditioned that they construct? They construct conditioned form as form; they construct conditioned feeling as feeling; they construct conditioned perception as perception; they construct conditioned volitional formations as volitional formations; they construct conditioned consciousness as consciousness. ‘They construct the conditioned,’ bhikkhus, therefore they are called volitional formations.

For those who have reservations about the likelihood of an equivalence between a thing as a nutriment and a thing as a supporting condition, the next sutta should make things even more clear - here we see nutriment in place of a "specific condition".

[SDC]

Aṅguttara Nikāya
Avijjāsutta (Ignorance) AN 10.61 (PTS 5.113–5.116)
Translated by Bhikkhu Bodhi

• Bhikkhus, this is said: ‘A first point of ignorance, bhikkhus, is not seen such that before this there was no ignorance and afterward it came into being.’ Still, ignorance is seen to have a specific condition.
  
  “I say, bhikkhus, that ignorance has a nutriment; it is not without nutriment. And what is the nutriment for ignorance? It should be said: the five hindrances. The five hindrances, too, I say, have a nutriment; they are not without nutriment. And what is the nutriment for the five hindrances? It should be said: the three kinds of misconduct. The three kinds of misconduct, too, I say, have a nutriment; they are not without nutriment. And what is the nutriment for the three kinds of misconduct? It should be said: non-restraint of the sense faculties. Non-restraint of the sense faculties, too, I say, has a nutriment; it is not without nutriment. And what is the nutriment for non-restraint of the sense faculties? It should be said: lack of mindfulness and clear comprehension. Lack of mindfulness and clear comprehension, too, I say, has a nutriment; it is not without nutriment. And what is the nutriment for lack of mindfulness and clear comprehension? It should be said: careless attention. Careless attention, too, I say, has a nutriment; it is not without nutriment. And what is the nutriment for careless attention? It should be said: lack of faith. Lack of faith, too, I say, has a nutriment; it is not without nutriment. And what is the nutriment for lack of faith? It should be said: not hearing the good Dhamma. Not hearing the good Dhamma, too, I say, has a nutriment; it is not without nutriment. And what is the nutriment for not hearing the good Dhamma? It should be said: not associating with good persons.
  
  “Thus not associating with good persons, becoming full, fills up not hearing the good Dhamma. Not hearing the good Dhamma, becoming full, fills up lack of faith. Lack of faith, becoming full, fills up careless attention. Careless attention, becoming full, fills up lack of mindfulness and clear comprehension. Lack of mindfulness and clear comprehension, becoming full, fills up non-restraint of the sense faculties. Non-restraint of the sense faculties, becoming full, fills up the three kinds of misconduct. The three kinds of misconduct, becoming full, fill up the five hindrances. The five hindrances, becoming full, fill up ignorance. Thus there is nutriment for ignorance, and in this way it becomes full.
  
  “Just as, when it is raining and the rain pours down in thick droplets on a mountaintop, the water flows down along the slope and fills the clefts, gullies, and creeks; these, becoming full, fill up the pools; these, becoming full, fill up the lakes; these, becoming full, fill up the streams; these, becoming full, fill up the rivers; and these, becoming full, fill up the great ocean; thus there is nutriment for the great ocean, and in this way it becomes full. So too, not associating with good persons, becoming full, fills up not hearing the good Dhamma…. The five hindrances, becoming full, fill up ignorance. Thus there is nutriment for ignorance, and in this way it becomes full.
  
  I say, bhikkhus, that (1) true knowledge and liberation have a nutriment; they are not without nutriment. And what is the nutriment for true knowledge and liberation? It should be said: (2) the seven factors of enlightenment. The seven factors of enlightenment, too, I say, have a nutriment; they are not without nutriment. And what is the nutriment for the seven factors of enlightenment? It should be said: (3) the four establishments of mindfulness. The four establishments of mindfulness, too, I say, have a nutriment; they are not without nutriment. And what is the nutriment for the four establishments of mindfulness? It should be said: (4) the three kinds of good conduct. The three kinds of good conduct, too, I say, have a nutriment; they are not without nutriment. And what is the nutriment for the three kinds of good conduct? It should be said: (5) restraint of the sense faculties. Restraint of the sense faculties, too, I say, has a nutriment; it is not without nutriment. And what is the nutriment for restraint of the sense faculties? It should be said: (6) mindfulness and clear comprehension. Mindfulness and clear comprehension, too, I say, have a nutriment; they are not without nutriment. And what is the nutriment for mindfulness and clear comprehension? It should be said: (7) careful attention. Careful attention, too, I say, has a nutriment; it is not without nutriment. And what is the nutriment for careful attention? It should be said: (8) faith. Faith, too, I say, has a nutriment; it is not without nutriment. And what is the nutriment for faith? It should be said: (9) hearing the good Dhamma. Hearing the good Dhamma, too, I say, has a nutriment; it is not without nutriment. And what is the nutriment for hearing the good Dhamma? It should be said: (10) associating with good persons.
  
  “Thus associating with good persons, becoming full, fills up hearing the good Dhamma. Hearing the good Dhamma, becoming full, fills up faith. Faith, becoming full, fills up careful attention. Careful attention, becoming full, fills up mindfulness and clear comprehension. Mindfulness and clear comprehension, becoming full, fill up restraint of the sense faculties. Restraint of the sense faculties, becoming full, fills up the three kinds of good conduct. The three kinds of good conduct, becoming full, fill up the four establishments of mindfulness. The four establishments of mindfulness, becoming full, fill up the seven factors of enlightenment. The seven factors of enlightenment, becoming full, fill up true knowledge and liberation. Thus there is nutriment for true knowledge and liberation, and in this way they become full.
  
  “Just as, when it is raining and the rain pours down in thick droplets on a mountaintop, the water flows down along the slope and fills the clefts, gullies, and creeks; these, becoming full, fill up the pools; these, becoming full, fill up the lakes; these, becoming full, fill up the streams; these, becoming full, fill up the rivers; and these, becoming full, fill up the great ocean; thus there is nutriment for the great ocean, and in this way it becomes full. So too, associating with good persons, becoming full, fills up hearing the good Dhamma…. The seven factors of enlightenment, becoming full, fill up true knowledge and liberation. Thus there is nutriment for true knowledge and liberation, and in this way they become full.”

Notes: I think the simile of the flowing water above is a great illustration. A nutriment is literally something that on account of being filled is able to fill another thing. Although I do not think this is a simple series of events. Misconduct, for example, is not cut and dry. A person can be making effort to be rid of misconduct and develop good conduct by body, speech and mind, but it does not happen all at once. These things cannot fulfill each other immediately in sequence. They must develop into the nutriment, into that supporting condition. While misconduct may be the nutriment for the five hinderances in the individual experience, there may be developing restraint that has yet to give full support to good conduct.

Point being, a thing is a nutriment when it has been developed to certain extent. If they have yet to be developed or yet to be abandoned, things do not change direction. They do not come to fulfillment. In other words, the nutriment for ignorance, and all the others, remain fulfilling each other. Therefore, does it make sense to say that ignorance would remain - as it always was; beginningless - as the reason for this mass of suffering? That it is not "instances of ignorance manifesting", but its enduring presence? (See SN 56.17: ignornace is the not knowing of the four noble truths. So if the four noble truths are not known, there is ignorance - it is always the case, until it isn't.)

[ToVincent]

::::::::::::::::::::::::::
Āhāra
::::::::::::::::::::::::::

From आहृ āhṛ [ ā-√ hṛ ]

Āhāra is the agt. of āhṛ:

- to fetch , bring near RV. AV. TS. ŚBr. (post Buddhist MBh) .

- to fetch for one's self , take , get AV. ĀśvGṛ. (post Buddhist Mn. MBh.)

- Caus. [ -hārayati ] , to cause to fetch ; to procure ŚBr. AitBr. TBr.

- Desid. [ -jihīrṣati ] , to wish or intend to procure ŚBr.

__________

Āhāra might better be expressed as "that (mental/rational) thing, which fetches for one's self".
As in: "things that fetch for the maintenance of one's being" — (And craving is the source of those mental/rational things).

Food, or the need to pass an emotion from one person to oneself, or the need for additional (often useless) knowledge, or intentions - bring up the fetching for the fulfillment of those needs.

Āhāra is not the "nutriment" per se. Āhāra is the fetching of that "nutriment" .
Āhāra fetches the "calls forth" (the summoning and occurrence of the not yet "born" - not yet "saṅkhārized",) "nutriment" that one craves for.

‘This has come to be’? (bhūtamidanti)
Causing to be born [viz. in oneself], (sambhavanti [AitBr. MBh]), occurs with that fetching (for oneself).

When there is craving for food (oḷāriko), or transference (phasso - like emotions passed on from one person to another), or intention/envision/fancy/project..., made both with mano and ceto (manosañcetanā), or craving for [usually more useless] knowledge (viññāṇa) - there is fetching for food, transference, etc. — and that food, transference, etc., "comes to be" in ourselves — namely we eat that food; we transfer more emotions; etc.

Note: This has to be likened somewhat with the proper translation of the pericope:

That turns out there, this calls
From the coming forth of that, this originates (is born/produced).
That doesn’t turn out, this does not call,
Due to the cessation of that there, this ceases.

Imasmiṃ sati idaṃ hoti,
Imassuppādā idaṃ uppajjati.
Imasmiṃ asati idaṃ na hoti,
Imassa nirodhā idaṃ nirujjhati

With hoti coming from root hū/hve (to call), not bhū.

Hoti "calls" — Āhāra "fetches" — uppajjati "has it to be produced" (for ourselves).

You might call the all shebang, the "law of demand & supply" — as long as there is still craving.
.
.

[ToVincent]

Sorry! - I put "oḷāriko" as the definition for food in the previous post.
I meant Āhāra — the meaning of āhāra is "food", in addition to "that which fetches" (aka the mental attitude to fetch towards oneself) .

Just like anicca means "not one's own" - and also means "impermanent" - etc.
.
.

[ToVincent]

One more thing to grasp the all shebang, is that Paccaya is wrongly translated as "condition".
Indeed, it should be translated as "feedback".

Consciousness is (the instrumental) feedback of saṅkhāras.
saṅkhārapaccayā viññāṇaṁ.
Namely, saṅkhāra is the input, viññāṇa is the output - and viññāṇa returns something to saṅkhāra, so that saṅkhāra can "understand".

So it is wrong to say:
"Consciousness is a **condition** for name and form.
viññāṇapaccayā nāmarūpaṁ"


PACCAYA (& HETU)

¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦
Paccaya, [Ved．pratyaya]
¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦

प्रत्यय pratyaya [act. pratī ].
- ground , basis , motive or cause of anything MBh. (no pre or contemporary
Buddhist's reference; afaik).
- proof, ascertainment Mn. MBh. (again, not a pre-Buddhist reference, yet a
bit closer).

¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦
प्रती pratī [prati-√ इ i ]
¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦
- to come back, return RV.
- Desid. [ pratīṣiṣati ], to wish or try to understand Pāṇ.


::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
Paccayā (instr. sing. of paccaya (m.))
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

Avijjāpaccayā saṅkhārā
Saṅkhārā (nom. pl. m.) are the feedback (by means) of avijjā.

Saṅkhārapaccayā viññāṇaṃ
Viññāṇaṃ (nom. sing. nt.) is the feedback of saṅkhāra.

Viññāṇapaccayā nāmarūpaṃ
Nāmarūpaṃ (nom. sing. nt.) is the feedback of viññāṇa.

Nāmarūpapaccayā saḷāyatanaṃ
Saḷāyatanaṃ (nom. sing. nt.) is the feedback of nāmarūpa.

Saḷāyatanapaccayā phasso
Phasso (nom. sing. m.) is the feedback of saḷāyatana.

phassapaccayā vedanā (f.)
Vedanā (nom. sing. f.) is the feedback of phassa.

etc.
vedanāpaccayā taṇhā, (f.)
taṇhāpaccayā upādānaṃ, (nt.)
upādānapaccayā bhavo, (m.)
bhavapaccayā jāti, (f. )
jātipaccayā jarāmaraṇaṃ (f. nt.)

__________

Also:

¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦
paṭicca
¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦
ger. of pacceti (paṭi+√i - [prati-√ इ i ])
Pacceti [paṭi+i] to come on to, come back to.

And:

::::::::::::::::::::::::::
Hetu (√hi-tu)
::::::::::::::::::::::::::

हेतु hetu
- " impulse " , motive , cause , cause of , reason for RV.

√ हि hi
- to discharge , cast , shoot RV.
- to convey , bring , procure ib. ŚBr.
- to send forth , set in motion , impel RV. AV. ŚBr. KātyŚr.
- to stimulate or incite to RV.

॰तु -tu forms substantives of action or instrument.

__________

Also, it might be good to have this (already covered) reminder in mind:

Paṭicca-Samuppāda means:
What springs together [flows out & perishes] (samuppāda/samutpāda), to (appear and) be understood (paṭicca/pratītya).
&
Paṭicca-Samuppanna means:
What has sprung together [flown out & perished] (samuppanna/samutpanna), to (appear and) be understood (paṭicca/pratītya).

__________

No Saṅkhāra, no Avijjā.
(no turning out there, no calling, no fetching, no ..., no..., ... etc. ).

__________

Great study session, as usual.
Always bringing on, the gist of the Teaching.
Thanks SDC.
.
.

[SDC]

…

ToVincent, thank you for bringing so much “nutriment for thought” to this discussion.

This idea of supply and demand is interesting, and it seems as though any layer/pair of DO would capture that whole situation. I would always stop short of calling it a process because it isn’t ever something that can be fully “out front” for viewing. Recently Ajahn Nyanamoli has used the term activities/activations for saṅkhāra, which also seems to incorporate all the details of what is implied in each layer of DO. But what seems extremely critical is to understand that the situation is found - for lack of a better phrase - already under-the-influence of avija. It is beginningless, thus cannot ever be found as influencing. Experience is inherently influenced already. So the goal must be to discern more than what has been corrupted - find a way to be quite secluded from sensuality and unwholesome states.

Seems to be the same case with āhāra, and that might be what is most relevant. Cases of opting for sensuality and ill-will as a means for dealing with the world, in the least, would reveal the presence of contact as that third nutriment; which implies craving (as the source), feeling (inducing craving) and the whole of DO foundational to that (of which they all have their place anyway). The point seems to be that these things endure, are being fulfilled, or maintained, by choice of a certain direction, made most relevant through that enduring presence of ignorance, the not-knowing of the four noble truths.

And what I really want to emphasize - if indeed it can hold water - is, that no matter what, if there is a body (paired with consciousness), if there is experience, then these āhāra and saṅkhāra are what is already in place, providing support, and will continue to do so until either the body breaks (with ignorance still present, thus fuel remains for more) or the direction is reversed, and support is given to that which will remove ignorance from a position where it could ever receive support ever again. It seems that that is what these suttas are describing.

[pegembara]

“Bhikkhus, there are these four kinds of nutriment for the maintenance of beings that have already come to be and for the assistance of those about to come to be. What four? The nutriment edible food, gross or subtle; second, contact; third, mental volition; fourth, consciousness. These are the four kinds of nutriment for the maintenance of beings that have already come to be and for the assistance of those about to come to be.

“Bhikkhus, these four kinds of nutriment have what as their source, what as their origin, from what are they born and produced? These four kinds of nutriment have craving as their source, craving as their origin; they are born and produced from craving.

“And this craving has what as its source, what as its origin, from what is it born and produced? This craving has feeling as its source, feeling as its origin; it is born and produced from feeling.

Note that at the time of the Buddha, there is no such thing as parenteral or tube feeding. The maintenance of life is dependent on the need for food(and the necessary intention to obtain it).

You can't continue living without food, consciousness, volition. This "craving" or need for food has the feeling of hunger as its source.

Nowadays food by other means can be given to a comatosed person who lacks feeling, volition and even consciousness for the maintenance of life.
A ventilated patient in ICU is in no position to procure anything but relies on others to do it on their behalf.

This is more relevant to our practice and it begins with association with the wise!

I say, bhikkhus, that (1) true knowledge and liberation have a nutriment; they are not without nutriment. And what is the nutriment for true knowledge and liberation? It should be said: (2) the seven factors of enlightenment. The seven factors of enlightenment, too, I say, have a nutriment; they are not without nutriment. And what is the nutriment for the seven factors of enlightenment? It should be said: (3) the four establishments of mindfulness. The four establishments of mindfulness, too, I say, have a nutriment; they are not without nutriment. And what is the nutriment for the four establishments of mindfulness? It should be said: (4) the three kinds of good conduct. The three kinds of good conduct, too, I say, have a nutriment; they are not without nutriment. And what is the nutriment for the three kinds of good conduct? It should be said: (5) restraint of the sense faculties. Restraint of the sense faculties, too, I say, has a nutriment; it is not without nutriment. And what is the nutriment for restraint of the sense faculties? It should be said: (6) mindfulness and clear comprehension. Mindfulness and clear comprehension, too, I say, have a nutriment; they are not without nutriment. And what is the nutriment for mindfulness and clear comprehension? It should be said: (7) careful attention. Careful attention, too, I say, has a nutriment; it is not without nutriment. And what is the nutriment for careful attention? It should be said: (8) faith. Faith, too, I say, has a nutriment; it is not without nutriment. And what is the nutriment for faith? It should be said: (9) hearing the good Dhamma. Hearing the good Dhamma, too, I say, has a nutriment; it is not without nutriment. And what is the nutriment for hearing the good Dhamma? It should be said: (10) associating with good persons.

Here it starts at the very beginning.

"Not to associate with the foolish,[5] but to associate with the wise; and to honor those who are worthy of honor — this is the greatest blessing.

To reside in a suitable locality,[6] to have done meritorious actions in the past and to set oneself in the right course[7] — this is the greatest blessing.

To have much learning, to be skillful in handicraft,[8] well-trained in discipline,[9] and to be of good speech[10] — this is the greatest blessing...


To be generous in giving, to be righteous in conduct,[11] to help one's relatives, and to be blameless in action — this is the greatest blessing.

To loathe more evil and abstain from it, to refrain from intoxicants,[12] and to be steadfast in virtue — this is the greatest blessing.

To be respectful,[13] humble, contented and grateful; and to listen to the Dhamma on due occasions[14] — this is the greatest blessing.

To be patient and obedient, to associate with monks and to have religious discussions on due occasions — this is the greatest blessing.

Self-restraint,[15] a holy and chaste life, the perception of the Noble Truths and the realisation of Nibbana — this is the greatest blessing.

A mind unruffled by the vagaries of fortune,[16] from sorrow freed, from defilements cleansed, from fear liberated[17] — this is the greatest blessing.

Those who thus abide, ever remain invincible, in happiness established. These are the greatest blessings."

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .nara.html

“When the pupil is ready, the Master appears”

[ToVincent]

.....

That's interesting SDC, but I would rather say "law of demand & supply", than "law of supply & demand".
And I would not relate that to the relationship between two niddanas in Paticcasamuppada — Rather, I would relate that to the all shebang.

Let's go back to this visual aid, and add some more arrows (see below).
And let us start with the "Imasmiṃ sati" part in the pericope:

That turns out there, this calls
From the coming forth of that, this originates (is born/produced).
That doesn’t turn out, this does not call,
Due to the cessation of that there, this ceases.

Imasmiṃ sati idaṃ hoti,
Imassuppādā idaṃ uppajjati.
Imasmiṃ asati idaṃ na hoti,
Imassa nirodhā idaṃ nirujjhati

With hoti coming from root hū/hve (to call), not bhū.

What is it about that "That turns out there"?

It seems that this "that turns out there", has to do with the all maintenance and establishing of consciousness — where the latter finds a home in the khandhas, in the nāmarūpa nidāna.

Bhikkhus, what one intends, and what one plans, and whatever one has a tendency towards: this becomes a support (basis-footing) for the maintenance (continuing of state: stay) of consciousness.
Yañca, bhikkhave, ceteti yañca pakappeti yañca anuseti, ārammaṇametaṃ hoti viññāṇassa ṭhitiyā.

When there is a support, there is a foundation [a firm dwelling to strive, prosper & spread from] for the establishing of consciousness.
Ārammaṇe sati patiṭṭhā viññāṇassa hoti.
SN 12.39: (also 12.38)

The form element, householder, is the home of consciousness; (idem for other khandhas).
Rūpadhātukho,gahapati, viññāṇassa oko.

One whose consciousness is shackled by lust for the form element (etc.), is called one who roams about in a home
Rūpadhāturāgavinibandhañca pana viññāṇaṃ ‘okasārī’ti vuccati.
SN 22.3

The above is the "That turns out there" ("Imasmiṃ sati").

When consciousness is established (in the nāmarūpa nidana,) and has come to growth, there is a descent of name-and-form.
Tasmiṃ patiṭṭhite viññāṇe virūḷhe nāmarūpassa avakkanti hoti.
SN 12.39: (also 12.38)
This late part is the (implied) "This calls" ("idaṃ hoti") + the "From the coming forth of that, this originates" ("Imassuppādā idaṃ uppajjati") part.

And finally, we have:
Saḷāyatanaṃ is the feedback of nāmarūpa.
Nāmarūpapaccayā saḷāyatanaṃ
SN 12.39: (also 12.38)

_______

Where does the fetching (āhāra) take place in the all shebang?

Well, first of all, let us notice that in the other texts (parallels), the four "nutriments" - to which must be attached the mental attitude to come after (fetch) them - are not quite the same.

Note: If one sticks to the sound rule that what is common to all texts, is a sound approach towards providing a genuine message of the Buddha; then there should be only three of them ( or less,) to be considered as a surety.
But if one sees a complemental reading in both the suttas and sutras — as it is the case with the definition of nāma in SN 12.2 & SA 298 as shown here:
https://justpaste.it/9rusd

Then we have the following definitions of āhāra:

The nutriment edible food, gross or subtle; second, contact; third, manosañcetana; fourth, consciousness.
SN 12.11

AND

The first is rolled food. The second is subtle food. The third is the food of thought. The fourth is the food of consciousness.
SA 374
Or
The first is coarse, rolled food. The second is the subtle food of feelings. The third is the food of thought. The fourth is the food of consciousness.
SA 371

Then the all shebang becomes this:
https://justpaste.it/61jfa

A2+ A3 = That turns out there (Imasmiṃ sati) - as the maintenance and establishing of consciousness.

C is the call (hoti) — the call from satta to nāmarūpa nidana — namely a call for the descent (avakkanti) of a co-acted ("sankharized") dhamma, into the saḷāyatana nidana (viz. an actualization of the "sankharized" khandhas, in the world of senses).

D is the "Imassuppādā idaṃ uppajjati" part - (√ pad) [lit. to fall down].
ut-√ pad = be born or produced - become visible (ŚBr. MBh.)
Imassuppādā idaṃ uppajati = From the coming forth of that, this originates (is born/produced)

Once the following process - that is to say contact and personal feeling - have been experienced, there is usually craving for more.
And that is where the fetching of, (coming after) new nutriments (food, transference, feeling, thought, manosañcetana and consciousness) takes place (A1 + A2).

_____________

As far as the "feedback" (paccaya) is concerned — namely, the reverse process of paṭiccasamuppāda — this is just the way it ends:

No sankhara (co-action [e. g. manosañcetana / Mano + cetana]) => no feedback to Avijja => Avijja ceases.
.
.

[SDC]

...

Another great contribution. Thank you, ToVincent.

[SDC]

An additional six suttas for this second week on “nutriment”. Please see notes for discussion points.

Enjoy.





Saṁyutta Nikāya
Āhārasutta (Nutriment) SN 46.51 (PTS 5.103–5.107)
Translated by Bhikkhu Bodhi

• At Savatthī. “Bhikkhus, I will teach you the nutriment and the denourishment in regard to the five hindrances and the seven factors of enlightenment. Listen to that.…
  
  i. The nutriments for the hindrances
  
  “And what, bhikkhus, is the nutriment for the arising of unarisen sensual desire and for the increase and expansion of arisen sensual desire? There is, bhikkhus, the sign of the beautiful: frequently giving careless attention to it is the nutriment for the arising of unarisen sensual desire and for the increase and expansion of arisen sensual desire.
  
  “And what, bhikkhus, is the nutriment for the arising of unarisen ill will and for the increase and expansion of arisen ill will? There is, bhikkhus, the sign of the repulsive: frequently giving careless attention to it is the nutriment for the arising of unarisen ill will and for the increase and expansion of arisen ill will.
  
  “And what, bhikkhus, is the nutriment for the arising of unarisen sloth and torpor and for the increase and expansion of arisen sloth and torpor? There are, bhikkhus, discontent, lethargy, lazy stretching, drowsiness after meals, sluggishness of mind: frequently giving careless attention to them is the nutriment for the arising of unarisen sloth and torpor and for the increase and expansion of arisen sloth and torpor.
  
  “And what, bhikkhus, is the nutriment for the arising of unarisen restlessness and remorse and for the increase and expansion of arisen restlessness and remorse? There is, bhikkhus, unsettledness of mind: frequently giving careless attention to it is the nutriment for the arising of unarisen restlessness and remorse and for the increase and expansion of arisen restlessness and remorse.
  
  “And what, bhikkhus, is the nutriment for the arising of unarisen doubt and for the increase and expansion of arisen doubt? There are, bhikkhus, things that are the basis for doubt: frequently giving careless attention to them is the nutriment for the arising of unarisen doubt and for the increase and expansion of arisen doubt.
  
  ii. The nutriments for the enlightenment factors
  
  “And what, bhikkhus, is the nutriment for the arising of the unarisen enlightenment factor of mindfulness and for the fulfilment by development of the arisen enlightenment factor of mindfulness? Read more...

Notes: I did cut this sutta quite short, but once again I just wanted to illustrate the meaning of nutriment above all else. I want to focus in on the quality of these things as "unarisen". Doubt, for instance - I think it is fair to say this means that more doubt could arise. That these things are enduring possibilities because their respective nutriments remain fulfilled.


Majjhima Nikāya
Sammādiṭṭhisutta (Right View) MN 9 (PTS 1.47–1.55)
Translated by Bhikkhu Bodhi

• Saying, “Good, friend,” the bhikkhus delighted and rejoiced in the venerable Sāriputta’s words. Then they asked him a further question: “But, friend, might there be another way in which a noble disciple is one of right view…and has arrived at this true Dhamma?”—“There might be, friends.
  
  “When, friends, a noble disciple understands nutriment, the origin of nutriment, the cessation of nutriment, and the way leading to the cessation of nutriment, in that way he is one of right view…and has arrived at this true Dhamma.
  
  “And what is nutriment, what is the origin of nutriment, what is the cessation of nutriment, what is the way leading to the cessation of nutriment? There are four kinds of nutriment for the maintenance of beings that already have come to be and for the support of those about to come to be. What four? They are: physical food as nutriment, gross or subtle; contact as the second; mental volition as the third; and consciousness as the fourth. With the arising of craving there is the arising of nutriment. With the cessation of craving there is the cessation of nutriment. The way leading to the cessation of nutriment is just this Noble Eightfold Path; that is, right view, right intention, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, and right concentration.
  
  “When a noble disciple has thus understood nutriment, the origin of nutriment, the cessation of nutriment, and the way leading to the cessation of nutriment, he entirely abandons the underlying tendency to greed, he abolishes the underlying tendency to aversion, he extirpates the underlying tendency to the view and conceit ‘I am,’ and by abandoning ignorance and arousing true knowledge he here and now makes an end of suffering. In that way too a noble disciple is one of right view, whose view is straight, who has unwavering confidence in the Dhamma, and has arrived at this true Dhamma.”

Notes: Just wanted to include this excerpt to again highlight the significance of nutriment, as a principle, is at the heart of understanding right view.


Saṁyutta Nikāya
Bhūtasutta (What Has Come to Be) SN 12.31 (PTS 2.48–2.50)
Translated by Bhikkhu Bodhi

• On one occasion the Blessed One was dwelling at Savatthī.… There the Blessed One addressed the Venerable Sāriputta thus: “Sāriputta, in ‘The Questions of Ajita’ of the Parayana it is said:
  
  ‘Those who have comprehended the Dhamma,
  And the manifold trainees here:
  Asked about their way of conduct,
  Being discreet, tell me, dear sir.’
  
  How should the meaning of this, stated in brief, be understood in detail?”
  
  When this was said, the Venerable Sāriputta was silent. A second time and a third time the Blessed One addressed the Venerable Sāriputta thus: “Sāriputta, in ‘The Questions of Ajita’ in the Parayana it is said … How should the meaning of this, stated in brief, be understood in detail?” A second time and a third time the Venerable Sāriputta was silent.
  
  “Sāriputta, do you see: ‘This has come to be’? Sāriputta, do you see: ‘This has come to be’?”
  
  “Venerable sir, one sees as it really is with correct wisdom: ‘This has come to be.’ Having seen as it really is with correct wisdom: ‘This has come to be,’ one is practising for the purpose of revulsion towards what has come to be, for its fading away and cessation. One sees as it really is with correct wisdom: ‘Its origination occurs with that as nutriment.’ Having seen as it really is with correct wisdom: ‘Its origination occurs with that as nutriment, ’ one is practising for the purpose of revulsion towards its origination through nutriment, for its fading away and cessation. One sees as it really is with correct wisdom: ‘With the cessation of that nutriment, what has come to be is subject to cessation.’ Having seen as it really is with correct wisdom: ‘With the cessation of that nutriment, what has come to be is subject to cessation, ’ one is practising for the purpose of revulsion towards what is subject to cessation, for its fading away and cessation. It is in such a way that one is a trainee.
  
  “And how, venerable sir, has one comprehended the Dhamma? Venerable sir, one sees as it really is with correct wisdom: ‘This has come to be.’ Having seen as it really is with correct wisdom: ‘This has come to be,’ through revulsion towards what has come to be, through its fading away and cessation, one is liberated by nonclinging. One sees as it really is with correct wisdom: ‘Its origination occurs with that as nutriment.’ Having seen as it really is with correct wisdom: ‘Its origination occurs with that as nutriment,’ through revulsion towards its origination through nutriment, through its fading away and cessation, one is liberated by nonclinging. One sees as it really is with correct wisdom: ‘With the cessation of that nutriment, what has come to be is subject to cessation.’ Having seen as it really is with correct wisdom: ‘With the cessation of that nutriment, what has come to be is subject to cessation,’ through revulsion towards what is subject to cessation, through its fading away and cessation, one is liberated by nonclinging. It is in such a way that one has comprehended the Dhamma.
  
  “Thus, venerable sir, when it is said in ‘The Questions of Ajita’ of the Parayana:
  
  ‘Those who have comprehended the Dhamma,
  And the manifold trainees here:
  Asked about their way of conduct,
  Being discreet, tell me, dear sir.’—
  
  it is in such a way that I understand in detail the meaning of this that was stated in brief.”
  
  “Good, good, Sāriputta!… the Buddha repeats here the entire statement of the Venerable Sāriputta … it is in such a way that the meaning of this, stated in brief, should be understood in detail.”

Notes: Any thoughts about the line, "It's origination occurs with that as nutriment"? That it was the development of revulsion, and the diminishment of delight, that gave the insight into the origination and the cessation, resulting in liberation. Once again we find this notion of enduring support, which remains as support through samsara if it is not understood.



Saṁyutta Nikāya
Atthirāgasutta (If There is Lust) SN 12.64 (PTS 2.101–2.104)
Translated by Bhikkhu Bodhi

• At Savatthī. “Bhikkhus, there are these four kinds of nutriment for the maintenance of beings that have already come to be and for the assistance of those about to come to be. What four? The nutriment edible food, gross or subtle; second, contact; third, mental volition; fourth, consciousness. These are the four kinds of nutriment for the maintenance of beings that have already come to be and for the assistance of those about to come to be.
  
  “If, bhikkhus, there is lust for the nutriment edible food, if there is delight, if there is craving, consciousness becomes established there and comes to growth. Wherever consciousness becomes established and comes to growth, there is a descent of name-and-form. Where there is a descent of name-and-form, there is the growth of volitional formations. Where there is the growth of volitional formations, there is the production of future renewed existence. Where there is the production of future renewed existence, there is future birth, aging, and death. Where there is future birth, aging, and death, I say that is accompanied by sorrow, anguish, and despair.
  
  “If, bhikkhus, there is lust for the nutriment contact, or for the nutriment mental volition, or for the nutriment consciousness, if there is delight, if there is craving, consciousness becomes established there and comes to growth. Wherever consciousness becomes established and comes to growth … I say that is accompanied by sorrow, anguish, and despair.
  
  “Suppose, bhikkhus, an artist or a painter, using dye or lac or turmeric or indigo or crimson, would create the figure of a man or a woman complete in all its features on a well-polished plank or wall or canvas. So too, if there is lust for the nutriment edible food, or for the nutriment contact, or for the nutriment mental volition, or for the nutriment consciousness, if there is delight, if there is craving, consciousness becomes established there and comes to growth. Wherever consciousness becomes established and comes to growth … I say that is accompanied by sorrow, anguish, and despair.
  
  “If, bhikkhus, there is no lust for the nutriment edible food, or for the nutriment contact, or for the nutriment mental volition, or for the nutriment consciousness, if there is no delight, if there is no craving, consciousness does not become established there and come to growth. Where consciousness does not become established and come to growth, there is no descent of name-and-form. Where there is no descent of name-and-form, there is no growth of volitional formations. Where there is no growth of volitional formations, there is no production of future renewed existence. Where there is no production of future renewed existence, there is no future birth, aging, and death. Where there is no future birth, aging, and death, I say that is without sorrow, anguish, and despair.
  
  “Suppose, bhikkhus, there was a house or a hall with a peaked roof, with windows on the northern, southern, and eastern sides. When the sun rises and a beam of light enters through a window, where would it become established?”
  
  “On the western wall, venerable sir.”
  
  “If there were no western wall, where would it become established?”
  
  “On the earth, venerable sir.”
  
  “If there were no earth, where would it become established?”
  
  “On the water, venerable sir.”
  
  “If there were no water, where would it become established?”
  
  “It would not become established anywhere, venerable sir.”
  
  “So too, bhikkhus, if there is no lust for the nutriment edible food … for the nutriment contact … for the nutriment mental volition … for the nutriment consciousness … consciousness does not become established there and come to growth. Where consciousness does not become established and come to growth … … I say that is without sorrow, anguish, and despair.”

Notes: I'm really fascinated by this progression towards the end where the question of where the light would be established as less becomes available. (SN 1.27

Now taking this paragraph into consideration:

“If, bhikkhus, there is lust for the nutriment edible food, if there is delight, if there is craving, consciousness becomes established there and comes to growth. Wherever consciousness becomes established and comes to growth, there is a descent of name-and-form. Where there is a descent of name-and-form, there is the growth of volitional formations. Where there is the growth of volitional formations, there is the production of future renewed existence. Where there is the production of future renewed existence, there is future birth, aging, and death. Where there is future birth, aging, and death, I say that is accompanied by sorrow, anguish, and despair.

Is it safe to say that this would be a description of any and all lives whether past future or right now?


Saṁyutta Nikāya
Bījasutta (Seeds) SN 22.54 (PTS 3.55)
Translated by Bhikkhu Bodhi

• At Savatthi. “Bhikkhus, there are these five kinds of seeds. What five? Root-seeds, stem-seeds, joint-seeds, cutting-seeds, and germ-seeds as the fifth. If these five kinds of seeds are unbroken, unspoilt, undamaged by wind and sun, fertile, securely planted, but there is no earth or water, would these five kinds of seeds come to growth, increase, and expansion?”
  
  “No, venerable sir.”
  
  “If these five kinds of seeds are broken, spoilt, damaged by wind and sun, unfertile, not securely planted, but there is earth and water, would these five kinds of seeds come to growth, increase, and expansion?”
  
  “No, venerable sir.”
  
  “If these five kinds of seeds are unbroken, unspoilt, undamaged by wind and sun, fertile, securely planted, and there is earth and water, would these five kinds of seeds come to growth, increase, and expansion?”
  
  “Yes, venerable sir.”
  
  “Bhikkhus, the four stations of consciousness should be seen as like the earth element. Delight and lust should be seen as like the water element. Consciousness together with its nutriment should be seen as like the five kinds of seeds.
  
  “Consciousness, bhikkhus, while standing, might stand engaged with form; based upon form, established upon form, with a sprinkling of delight, it might come to growth, increase, and expansion. Or consciousness, while standing, might stand engaged with feeling … engaged with perception … engaged with volitional formations; based upon volitional formations, established upon volitional formations, with a sprinkling of delight, it might come to growth, increase, and expansion.
  
  “Bhikkhus, though someone might say: ‘Apart from form, apart from feeling, apart from perception, apart from volitional formations, I will make known the coming and going of consciousness, its passing away and rebirth, its growth, increase, and expansion’—that is impossible.
  
  “Bhikkhus, if a bhikkhu has abandoned lust for the form element, with the abandoning of lust the basis is cut off: there is no support for the establishing of consciousness. If he has abandoned lust for the feeling element … for the perception element … for the volitional formations element … for the consciousness element, with the abandoning of lust the basis is cut off: there is no support for the establishing of consciousness.
  
  “When that consciousness is unestablished, not coming to growth, nongenerative, it is liberated. By being liberated, it is steady; by being steady, it is content; by being content, he is not agitated. Being unagitated, he personally attains Nibbāna. He understands: ‘Destroyed is birth, the holy life has been lived, what had to be done has been done, there is no more for this state of being.’”

Notes: This sutta is a monster IMO. Notice that consciousness, engaged with any of the other four aggregates - with a sprinkling of delight - might come to growth, but notice consciousness cannot engage with itself. Notice what is impossible: that the coming and going of consciousness apart from form, feeling perception and volitional formations cannot be made known. The support for consciousness is the lust for the aggregates - here identified as elements. Thoughts?


Saṁyutta Nikāya
Puttamaṁsasutta (Son's Flesh) SN 12.63 (PTS 2.98–2.100)
Translated by Bhikkhu Bodhi

• At Savatthi. “Bhikkhus, there are these four kinds of nutriment for the maintenance of beings that have already come to be and for the assistance of those about to come to be. What four? The nutriment edible food, gross or subtle; second, contact; third, mental volition; fourth, consciousness. These are the four kinds of nutriment for the maintenance of beings that have already come to be and for the assistance of those about to come to be.
  
  “And how, bhikkhus, should the nutriment edible food be seen? Suppose a couple, husband and wife, had taken limited provisions and were travelling through a desert. They have with them their only son, dear and beloved. Then, in the middle of the desert, their limited provisions would be used up and exhausted, while the rest of the desert remains to be crossed. The husband and wife would think: ‘Our limited provisions have been used up and exhausted, while the rest of this desert remains to be crossed. Let us kill our only son, dear and beloved, and prepare dried and spiced meat. By eating our son’s flesh we can cross the rest of this desert. Let not all three of us perish!’
  
  “Then, bhikkhus, the husband and wife would kill their only son, dear and beloved, prepare dried and spiced meat, and by eating their son’s flesh they would cross the rest of the desert. While they are eating their son’s flesh, they would beat their breasts and cry: ‘Where are you, our only son? Where are you, our only son?’
  
  “What do you think, bhikkhus? Would they eat that food for amusement or for enjoyment or for the sake of physical beauty and attractiveness?”
  
  “No, venerable sir.”
  
  “Wouldn’t they eat that food only for the sake of crossing the desert?”
  
  “Yes, venerable sir.”
  
  “It is in such a way, bhikkhus, that I say the nutriment edible food should be seen. When the nutriment edible food is fully understood, lust for the five cords of sensual pleasure is fully understood. When lust for the five cords of sensual pleasure is fully understood, there is no fetter bound by which a noble disciple might come back again to this world.
  
  “And how, bhikkhus, should the nutriment contact be seen? Suppose there is a flayed cow. If she stands exposed to a wall, the creatures dwelling in the wall would nibble at her. If she stands exposed to a tree, the creatures dwelling in the tree would nibble at her. If she stands exposed to water, the creatures dwelling in the water would nibble at her. If she stands exposed to the open air, the creatures dwelling in the open air would nibble at her. Whatever that flayed cow stands exposed to, the creatures dwelling there would nibble at her.
  
  “It is in such a way, bhikkhus, that I say the nutriment contact should be seen. When the nutriment contact is fully understood, the three kinds of feeling are fully understood. When the three kinds of feeling are fully understood, I say, there is nothing further that a noble disciple needs to do.
  
  “And how, bhikkhus, should the nutriment mental volition be seen? Suppose there is a charcoal pit deeper than a man’s height, filled with glowing coals without flame or smoke. A man would come along wanting to live, not wanting to die, desiring happiness and averse to suffering. Then two strong men would grab him by both arms and drag him towards the charcoal pit. The man’s volition would be to get far away, his longing would be to get far away, his wish would be to get far away from the charcoal pit. For what reason? Because he knows: ‘I will fall into this charcoal pit and on that account I will meet death or deadly suffering.’
  
  “It is in such a way, bhikkhus, that I say the nutriment mental volition should be seen. When the nutriment mental volition is fully understood, the three kinds of craving are fully understood. When the three kinds of craving are fully understood, I say, there is nothing further that a noble disciple needs to do.
  
  “And how, bhikkhus, should the nutriment consciousness be seen? Suppose they were to arrest a bandit, a criminal, and bring him before the king, saying: ‘Sire, this man is a bandit, a criminal. Impose on him whatever punishment you wish.’ The king says to them: ‘Go, men, in the morning strike this man with a hundred spears.’ In the morning they strike him with a hundred spears. Then at noon the king asks: ‘Men, how’s that man?’–‘Still alive, sire.’–‘Then go, and at noon strike him with a hundred spears.’ At noon they strike him with a hundred spears. Then in the evening the king asks: ‘Men, how’s that man?’–‘Still alive, sire.’ –‘Then go, and in the evening strike him with a hundred spears.’ In the evening they strike him with a hundred spears.
  
  “What do you think, bhikkhus? Would that man, being struck with three hundred spears, experience pain and displeasure on that account?”
  
  “Venerable sir, even if he were struck with one spear he would experience pain and displeasure on that account, not to speak of three hundred spears.”
  
  “It is in such a way, bhikkhus, that I say the nutriment consciousness should be seen. When the nutriment consciousness is fully understood, name-and-form is fully understood. When name-and-form is fully understood, I say, there is nothing further that a noble disciple needs to do.”

Notes: Really into these similes. And while it is a bit outside of the theme, I'd like to emphasize the flayed cow as a simile for contact. Seems clear that it is much more than mere contact (à la the theory of perception) - that it really has to do with exposure. Think about it, of the cow weren't flayed, if there were no open wounds, she wouldn't be susceptible to the creatures nibbling at her. Thoughts on the others?

[ToVincent]

...

Another great contribution. Thank you, ToVincent.

If the contribution is so great, why are you still formulating questions like these:
viewtopic.php?p=649138#p649138
(Maybe because you still don't check for parallels, for your quoted sutta's extracts - and above all, because you don't use a proper historical etymology).
Sorry to say! - and that applies to most, if not all of the people on this forum.

So when you still ask:

Any thoughts about the line, "It's origination occurs with that as nutriment"?

The pericope:
“Venerable sir, one sees as it has come to be, with correct discernment: ‘This has come to be' " - explains what the "its", in "It's origination", is all about.
The "its" is the "THAT", in the "THAT turns out there" ("Imasmiṃ sati")

The THAT (has come to be - bhūtha (p.p.)), is the green part in this sketch:
https://justpaste.it/804f8
And the process to arrive at THAT is :

- A1 (viz. the fetching for more āhārā , due to craving (taṇhā) > Food (Nikayas and Agamas) - Tranference/"contact" (phasso) (Nikayas) - Feeling (Agamas) - Thought (Agama) - manosañcetana (Nikayas), and Consciousness (knowledge) (Nikayas and Agamas).

- A2 (viz. manosañcetana brings the maintenance of consciousness (SN 12.11 & SN 12.39).

- A3 (viz. Consciousness descends in the nāmarūpa nidāna (SN 12.59))
When viññanam anidassanam = Consciousness that is not becoming visible
[that is not manifested], becomes visible nidassana (nidarśana), with the descent of consciousness (viññanassa avakkanti) [SN 12.59] in the khandhas of the nāmarūpa nidāna - the latters becoming the home of consciousness [SN 22.3] - then we do have the "what have become" - the "THAT", in "THAT turns out there" ("Imasmiṃ sati").

Niddassana = निदर्शन nidarśana [agt. nidṛś]
निदृश् nidṛś [ni-dṛś]
√ दृश् dṛś or dṛṣ [var. paś]
- to be seen, become visible (RV., AV., ŚBr.)

Then that consciousness that has been established in the khandhas of the nāmarūpa nidāna, and has come to growth, becomes sense-consciousness with the descent of nāmarūpa (SN 12.39), in the saḷāyatana nidāna.

Is that so hard to understand?

__________

And when you say:

I want to focus in on the quality of these things (āhārā) as "unarisen". Doubt, for instance - I think it is fair to say this means that more doubt could arise. That these things are enduring possibilities because their respective nutriments remain fulfilled.

I believe that you confound āhāra with one of the five hindrances (pañca nīvaraṇāni), or one of the underlying tendencies (anusayā) - and as a consequence, your understanding is a bit fuzzy.

By the way, the proper historical etymology of "vicikicchā" is "deviant thinking".
vicikicchā - Skt. vi—cikitsā), from the suttas.
» vi = used in forming compounds not immediately referable to verbs , in which cases it may express:
- " difference " (cf. vi-lakṣaṇa)
- " change " (cf. vi-citra)
- " deviation (cf. vi-śīla) ,
» चिकित्सा cikitsā [act. des. of cit (thinking) — (cf. मनश्चित् manaścit [ manaś-cí t ] (√ ci) piled up or constructed with the "minds" = manasā citaḥ).
But having known Dhamma and abandoned deviant (desiderative) thinking,
Aññāya dhammaṃ vicikicchaṃ pahāya - SN 1.34

_________

Again, when you say:

I Just wanted to include this excerpt to again highlight the significance of nutriment, as a principle, is at the heart of understanding right view

Wouldn't it be proper to see what "Right View" really means: https://justpaste.it/48ny7
Does arising = no non-existence AND cessation = no permanent existence, have to do with the āhāra, to the point of saying tha the latters are "at the heart of understanding right view"?
I would say not much, if we consider the series SN 12.15 and its parallels.

Definitely not with MN 117/MA 189

But certainly yes, with the series DN22/MA 31, MN141/MA 31, MN 10/ MA 31 - where "Right View" is the knowlege about suffering - and the āhārā, PART of that knowledge.

_________

Now taking this paragraph into consideration:

“If, bhikkhus, there is lust (raga), delight (nandī - as in being pleased and satisfied with - Skt. nand)) and craving (taṇhā) for the nutriment edible food

Lust (rago) is not included in the Agama's parallel - where only 喜 delight (being pleased and satisfied with), and 貪 craving do appear.

Lust, it seems, being more appropriately associated with the call (hoti) that satta is adressing to the "THAT turns ou there".
Imasmiṃ sati idaṃ hoti - That turns out there, this (viz. the saḷāyatana part of satta) calls.
For it is the saḷāyatana part of satta that calls for the coming forth of THAT (imassuppādā) - and then, this (saḷāyatana and the rest,) is produced and appears (uppajjati).

On the other hand, āhāra is concerned by, and is located next to, craving (taṇhā).

When there is no fetchings (āhāre) for the nutriments (āhāre), due to craving (taṇhā), there is no maintenance of consciousness and no establishing of consciousness - (and no descent of nāmarūpa in the saḷāyatana nidāna - and no sense-consciousness - and no transference/contact - and no feeling - and no craving - and no fetching for more feeling, contact, thought, manosañcetana, (maintenance of) consciousness - etc.).

And when there is no establishing of consciousness in the nāmarūpa nidāna, there is no "THAT turns ou there", and no lust (rago) to call (hoti) for it to appear (and be produced) (uppajjati - fr. Skt. ut-pad), in the saḷāyatana nidāna.

Obvious, isn't it?

Again use the visual aids:
https://justpaste.it/9rusd
https://justpaste.it/61jfa
https://justpaste.it/804f8
_________

Notice what is impossible: that the coming and going of consciousness apart from form, feeling perception and volitional formations cannot be made known.

Sure! - The khandhas in nāmarūpa nidāna are the home of consciousness (SN 22.3), as explained above, and on the visual aid.

Consciousness cannot be made known, both as nidassana and established in the khandhas of the nāmarūpa nidāna - and as sense consciousness in the saḷāyatana nidāna — without the khandhas being home for the nidassana consciousness - and the descent of the khandhas in the saḷāyatana nidāna.
Moreover the coming of consciousness is the establishing of consciousness — and the going of consciousness is the maintenance of consciousness ( that cannot occur without the descent of the khandhas in the saḷāyatana nidāna - and the process that ensue).

________

Note that SN 1.27 does not have a sound parallel.
It might be good to check other suttas with the "na gādhati" pericope, to see if they have parallels.
.
.

[SDC]

Off topic discussion has been moved to the Suggestions thread in the Announcement section of the Study Group.

[JohnK]

Just noticing the first excerpt for this week.

Saṁyutta Nikāya
Āhārasutta (Nutriment) SN 46.51 (PTS 5.103–5.107)
Translated by Bhikkhu Bodhi
…
i. The nutriments for the hindrances

“And what, bhikkhus, is the nutriment for the arising of unarisen sensual desire and for the increase and expansion of arisen sensual desire? There is, bhikkhus, the sign of the beautiful: frequently giving careless attention to it is the nutriment for the arising of unarisen sensual desire and for the increase and expansion of arisen sensual desire.

“And what, bhikkhus, is the nutriment for the arising of unarisen ill will and for the increase and expansion of arisen ill will? There is, bhikkhus, the sign of the repulsive: frequently giving careless attention to it is the nutriment for the arising of unarisen ill will and for the increase and expansion of arisen ill will.

These first two are easiest for me to get: X leads to Y leads to Z (where Y is always "careless attention"). I love that it is careless attention to some things rather than things in and of themselves that "nutrify" the hindrances.

“And what, bhikkhus, is the nutriment for the arising of unarisen sloth and torpor and for the increase and expansion of arisen sloth and torpor? There are, bhikkhus, discontent, lethargy, lazy stretching, drowsiness after meals, sluggishness of mind: frequently giving careless attention to them is the nutriment for the arising of unarisen sloth and torpor and for the increase and expansion of arisen sloth and torpor.

Here, X seems to be describing "sloth and torpor" itself (Z), in which case, it is already arisen. So, inappropriate attention can surely lead to its increase, but how does it account for its arising if it is already arisen? Nevertheless, I am okay with holding the possibility that X is somehow different from Z (for example "discontent"), which would make it follow the pattern of the previous two hindrances and work for both increasing and arising.

“And what, bhikkhus, is the nutriment for the arising of unarisen restlessness and remorse and for the increase and expansion of arisen restlessness and remorse? There is, bhikkhus, unsettledness of mind: frequently giving careless attention to it is the nutriment for the arising of unarisen restlessness and remorse and for the increase and expansion of arisen restlessness and remorse.

Again, as long as "unsettledness of mind" (X) is distinct from "restlessness and remorse" (Z) -- though that's not entirely clear to me -- the pattern follows for increasing and arising as in the previous hindrances .

“And what, bhikkhus, is the nutriment for the arising of unarisen doubt and for the increase and expansion of arisen doubt? There are, bhikkhus, things that are the basis for doubt: frequently giving careless attention to them is the nutriment for the arising of unarisen doubt and for the increase and expansion of arisen doubt.

Here, X is not made clear, just "things."
Wondering why no specifics?
(Perhaps inappropriate attention to anything could lead to doubt -- a powerful point -- but that is not what is said.)
But because the unspecified X is distinct from Z, the pattern still follows -- and works for both increase and arising.

I know my reactions are not really addressing nutriment beyond it being a cause. I like it as an image, but I don't yet see it as more than causal -- though to an extent it creates a different experience of causality (in line with tanha/thirst/craving).