🟧 Sabhiya has a certain question, Snp 3.6 (October 24, 2021)

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🟧 Sabhiya has a certain question, Snp 3.6 (October 24, 2021)

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:reading:


When I first took over the Study Group, @Pulsar expressed interest in dedicating a week to the Sabhiya sutta from Sutta Nipāta of the Khuddakanikāya (KN). So to coincide with a fresh new translation of the Snp by Bhikkhu Sujato, it seemed like a good time as any to get around to this fascinating exchange. As with many of suttas found in the Snp, we find a conversation in verse between the Buddha and a wander of another sect. In the case of Snp 3.6, we have Sabhiya, who is advised by a former relative (now a deity), to follow the spiritual life under whichever ascetic or brahmin can answer a certain question. One by one, the many famous religious leaders of the time, put off by the line of questioning, not only fail to answer, but counter it through questioning Sabhiya in return. Having not received anything close to a satisfying answer to his question, he then considers finding the Buddha, but is left wondering if it is possible for such a young ascetic to be so wise. Sabhiya is quickly put at ease after finding the Buddha, and eventually gets far more than he expected.

Got a ton of help from Bhikkhu Bodhi's notes and the Paramatthajotikā (Buddhaghosa's commentary to Snp) this week. Did my very best to bring out some the seemingly obscure references found in this sutta.

Enjoy. :smile:
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📍 Sabhiya has a certain question, Snp 3.6 (October 24, 2021)

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:reading:


Khuddakanikāya (KN)
Sutta Nipāta
Sabhiyasutta (With Sabhiya) Snp 3.6 (PTS 92–102)
Translated by Bhikkhu Sujato


  • So I have heard. At one time the Buddha was staying near Rājagaha, in the Bamboo Grove, the squirrels’ feeding ground. Now at that time the wanderer Sabhiya had been presented with a question by a deity who was a former relative, saying: “Sabhiya, you should practice the spiritual life with whatever ascetic or brahmin answers this question.”

    Then Sabhiya, after learning that question in the presence of that deity, approached those ascetics and brahmins who led an order and a community, and taught a community, who were well-known and famous religious founders, regarded as holy by many people. That is, Pūraṇa Kassapa, Makkhali Gosāla, Nigaṇṭha Nāṭaputta, Sañjaya Belaṭṭhiputta, Pakudha Kaccāyana, and Ajita Kesakambala. And he asked them that question, by they were stumped by it, Displaying annoyance, hate, and bitterness, they questioned Sabiya in return.

    Then Sabhiya thought, “Those famous ascetics and brahmins were stumped by my question. Displaying annoyance, hate, and bitterness, they questioned me in return on that matter. Why don’t I return to a lesser life so I can enjoy sensual pleasures?”

    Then Sabhiya thought, “This ascetic Gotama also leads an order and a community, and teaches a community. He’s a well-known and famous religious founder, regarded as holy by many people. Why don’t I ask him this question?”

    Then he thought, “Even those ascetics and brahmins who elderly and senior, who are advanced in years and have reached the final stage of life; who are senior, long standing, long gone forth; who lead an order and a community, and teach a community; who are well-known and famous religious founders, regarded as holy by many people—that is Pūraṇa Kassapa and the rest—were stumped by my question. They displayed annoyance, hate, and bitterness, and even questioned me in return. How can the ascetic Gotama possibly answer my question, since he is so young in age and newly gone forth?”

    Then he thought, “An ascetic should not be looked down upon or disparaged because they are young. Though young, the ascetic Gotama has great psychic power and might. Why don’t I ask him this question?”

    Then Sabhiya set out for Rājagaha. Traveling stage by stage, he came to Rājagaha, the Bamboo Grove, the squirrels’ feeding ground. He went up to the Buddha and exchanged greetings with him. When the greetings and polite conversation were over, he sat down to one side, and addressed the Buddha in verse:

    “I’ve come full of doubts and uncertainties,”
    said Sabhiya,
    “wishing to ask a question.
    Please solve them for me.
    Answer my questions in turn, in accordance with the truth.”

    “You have come from afar, Sabhiya,”
    said the Buddha,
    “wishing to ask a question.
    I shall solve them for you,
    answering your questions in turn, in accordance with the truth.

    Ask me your question, Sabhiya,
    whatever you want.
    I’ll solve each and every
    question you have.”

    Then Sabhiya thought, “It’s incredible, it’s amazing! Where those other ascetics and brahmins didn’t even give me a chance, the Buddha has invited me.” Uplifted and elated, full of rapture and happiness, he asked this question.

    “What must one attain to be called a mendicant?”
    said Sabhiya,
    “How is one ‘sweet’, how said to be ‘tamed’?
    How is one declared to be ‘awakened’?
    May the Buddha please answer my question.”

    “When by the path they have walked themselves,”
    said the Buddha to Sabhiya,
    “they reach quenching, with doubt overcome;
    giving up desire to continue existence or to end it,
    their journey complete, their rebirths ended: that is a mendicant.

    Equanimous towards everything, mindful,
    they don’t harm anyone in the world.
    An ascetic who has crossed over, unclouded,
    not full of themselves, is sweet-natured.

    Their faculties have been developed
    inside and out in the whole world.
    Having pierced through this world and the next,
    tamed, they bide their time.

    They have examined the aeons in their entirety,
    and both sides of transmigration—passing away and rebirth.
    Rid of dust, unblemished, purified:
    the one they call ‘awakened’ has attained the end of rebirth.”

    And then, having approved and agreed with what the Buddha said, uplifted and elated, full of rapture and happiness, Sabhiya asked another question:

    “What must one attain to be called ‘brahmin’?”
    said Sabhiya.
    “Why is one an ‘ascetic’, and how a ‘bathed initiate’?
    How is one declared to be a ‘giant’?
    May the Buddha please answer my question.”

    “Having banished all bad things,”
    said the Buddha to Sabhiya,
    “immaculate, well-composed, steadfast,
    consummate, they’ve left transmigration behind:
    such an unattached one is called ‘brahmin’.

    A peaceful one who has given up good and evil,
    stainless, understanding this world and the next,
    gone beyond rebirth and death:
    such an one is rightly called ‘ascetic’.

    Having washed off all bad things
    inside and out in the whole world,
    among gods and humans bound to creations,
    the one they call ‘washed’ does not return to creation.

    They do nothing monstrous at all in the world,
    discarding all fetters and bonds,
    everywhere not stuck, freed:
    such an one is rightly called ‘giant’.”

    And then Sabhiya asked another question:

    “Who is a ‘field-victor’ according to the Buddhas?”
    said Sabhiya,
    “Why is one ‘skillful’, and how ‘a wise scholar’?
    How is one declared to be a ‘sage’?
    May the Buddha please answer my question.”

    “They are victorious over the fields of deeds in their entirety,”
    said the Buddha to Sabhiya,
    “the fields of gods, humans, and Brahmas;
    released from the root bondage to all fields:
    such an one is rightly called ‘field-victor’.

    They have examined the stockpiles of deeds in their entirety,
    the stockpiles of gods, humans, and Brahmas;
    released from the root bondage to all stockpiles:
    such an one is rightly called ‘skillful’.

    They have examined whiteness
    both inside and out; understanding purity,
    they have left dark and bright behind:
    such an one is rightly called ‘a wise scholar’.”

    Understanding the nature of the bad and the good
    inside and out in the whole world;
    one worthy of honor by gods and humans,
    who has escaped from the net and the snare: that is a sage.”

    And then Sabhiya asked another question:

    “What must one attain to be called ‘knowledge master’?”
    said Sabhiya,
    “Why is one ‘studied’, and how is one ‘heroic’?
    How to gain the name ‘thoroughbred’?
    May the Buddha please answer my question.”

    “They have examined knowledges in their entirety,”
    said the Buddha to Sabhiya,
    “those that are current among ascetics and brahmins;
    rid of greed for all feelings,
    having left all knowledges behind: that is a knowledge master.

    Having studied proliferation and name & form
    inside and out—the root of disease;
    released from the root bondage to all disease:
    such an one is rightly called ‘studied’.

    Refraining from all evil here,
    heroic, he escapes from the suffering of hell;
    he is heroic and energetic:
    such an one is rightly called ‘hero’.

    Whoever’s bonds are cut,
    the root of clinging inside and out;
    released from the root bondage to all clinging:
    such an one is rightly called ‘thoroughbred’.”

    And then Sabhiya asked another question:

    “What must one attain to be called ‘scholar’?”
    said Sabhiya,
    “Why is one ‘noble’, and how is one ‘well conducted’?
    How to gain the name ‘wanderer’?
    May the Buddha please answer my question.”

    “One who has learned every teaching,”
    said the Buddha to Sabhiya,
    “and has known for themselves whatever is blameworthy and blameless in the world;
    a champion, decided, liberated,
    untroubled everywhere: they call them ‘scholar’.

    Having cut off defilements and attachments,
    being wise, they enter no womb.
    They’ve expelled the bog of the three perceptions,
    the one they call ‘noble’ does not return to creation.

    One here who is accomplished and skillful in all forms of good conduct;
    always understanding the teaching,
    everywhere not stuck, freed in mind,
    who has no repulsion: they are ‘well-conducted’.

    Avoiding any deed that results in suffering—
    above, below, all round, between:
    deceit and conceit, as well as greed and anger,
    they live full of wisdom.
    They have made a limit on name & form;
    the one they call a ‘wanderer’ has reached their destination.”

    And then, having approved and agreed with what the Buddha said, uplifted and elated, full of rapture and happiness, Sabhiya got up from his seat, arranged his robe over one shoulder, raised his joined palms toward the Buddha, and extolled the Buddha in his presence with fitting verses:

    “O one of vast wisdom, there are three & sixty opinions
    based on the doctrines of ascetics:
    they are expressions of perception, based on perception.
    Having dispelled them all, you passed over the dark flood.

    You have gone to the end, gone beyond suffering,
    you are perfected, a fully awakened Buddha; I think you have ended defilements.
    Splendid, intelligent, abounding in wisdom,
    ender of suffering—you brought me across!

    When you understood my uncertainty,
    you brought me beyond doubt—homage to you!
    A sage, accomplished in the ways of sagacity,
    you are gentle, not hardhearted, O Kinsman of the Sun.

    Any doubts that I once had,
    you have answered for me, O Seer.
    Clearly you are a sage, an Awakened One,
    there are no hindrances in you.

    All your distress
    is blown away and mown down.
    Cooled, tamed, steadfast:
    truth is your strength.

    O giant among giants, O great hero,
    when you are speaking
    all the gods rejoice,
    including both Nārada and Pabbata.

    Homage to you, O thoroughbred!
    Homage to you, supreme among men!
    In the world with its gods,
    you have no counterpart.

    You are the Buddha, you are the Teacher,
    you are the sage who has overcome Māra;
    you have cut off the underlying tendencies,
    you’ve crossed over, and you bring humanity across.

    You have transcended attachments,
    your defilements are shattered;
    you are a lion, free of grasping,
    with fear and dread given up.

    Like a graceful lotus
    to which water does not stick,
    so both good and evil
    do not stick to you.
    Stretch out your feet, great hero:
    Sabhiya bows to the Teacher.”

    Then the wanderer Sabhiya bowed with his head at the Buddha’s feet and said, “Excellent, sir! Excellent! … I go for refuge to the Buddha, to the teaching, and to the mendicant Saṅgha. Sir, may I receive the going forth, the ordination in the Buddha’s presence?”

    “Seniya, if someone formerly ordained in another sect wishes to take the going forth, the ordination in this teaching and training, they must spend four months on probation. When four months have passed, if the mendicants are satisfied, they’ll give the going forth, the ordination into monkhood. However, I have recognized individual differences in this matter.”

    “Sir, if four months probation are required in such a case, I’ll spend four years on probation. When four years have passed, if the mendicants are satisfied, let them give me the going forth, the ordination into monkhood.” And the wanderer Sabhiya received the going forth, the ordination in the Buddha’s presence. And Venerable Sabhiya became one of the perfected.
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📍 Sabhiya has a certain question, Snp 3.6 (October 24, 2021)

Post by SDC »

Thoughts?

  • While I enjoy this translation very much, I'd just like to note that Bhikkhu Bodhi renders jātikhayaṁ and jātimaraṇaṁ as "destruction of birth" and "birth and death" respectively, whereas Bhikkhu Sujato has opted for "rebirth" in both instances for jāti. I don't see the advantage of using rebirth in these cases - it just seems redundant. If there has been another birth, it is simply that birth, and so on and so forth as the wandering continues. For cutūpapātaṁ, Ven. Sujato and Ven. Bodhi are in agreement with "death and rebirth" and "passing away and rebirth" respectively. (Here's a link to the Pali for Snp 3.6 for anyone interested in taking a look).
  • In BB's notes to the Paramatthajotikā, khetta (field) is referencing the sense bases with respect to the different realms.
    • They are victorious over the fields of deeds in their entirety,”
      said the Buddha to Sabhiya,
      “the fields of gods, humans, and Brahmas;
      released from the root bondage to all fields:
      such an one is rightly called ‘field-victor
      .”
  • Bhikkhu Sujato has rendered paṇḍarāni as "whiteness" whereas BB has opted for "translucencies". Considering this is in reference to suddhipañño (purity + wisdom) of the following line, seems to make more sense that this is has to do with clarity and clearness. Buddhaghosa notes that Kaṇhaṁ sukkaṁ upātivatto "dark and bright abandoned" is referring to "evil and merit".
  • What does everyone think of this verse?

    Having studied proliferation and name & form
    inside and out—the root of disease;
    released from the root bondage to all disease:
    such an one is rightly called ‘studied’.
  • The Saññaṁ tividhaṁ panujja paṅkaṁ (they've expelled the bog of three perceptions) according to BB is in reference to kāmasañña, byāpādasañña and vihiṁsāsañña, perceptions of sensuality, ill will and cruelty respectively. (MN 19 and AN 6.110)
  • Just wanted to note the difference here as I found it striking:
    • Pali:

      Paribbājayitvā pariññacārī,
      Māyaṁ mānamathopi lobhakodhaṁ;
      Pariyantamakāsi nāmarūpaṁ,
      Taṁ paribbājakamāhu pattipattan”ti


      Sujato:

      Avoiding any deed that results in suffering—
      above, below, all round, between:
      deceit and conceit, as well as greed and anger,
      they live full of wisdom.
      They have made a limit on name & form;
      the one they call a ‘wanderer’ has reached their destination.


      Bodhi:

      Whatever kamma there is that ripens in suffering,
      above, below, or across the middle,
      having avoided it, a practitioner of full understanding,
      one terminates hypocrisy and conceit,
      greed and anger, and name and form,
      they call that accomplished one a wanderer.
    Note, Ven. Sujato gives name-and-form that individual treatment of "limit", while Ven Bodhi opts to include it with the other pairs as that which is “terminated”. Either way, there are connotations of a thing being cut off, but wanted to see if anyone sees a significant difference in meaning. Edit: After some thought, I think “limit” jives more with “cut off like a palm stump”, in that it indicates that certain aspects remain, but are no longer subject to growth.
  • According to Paramatthajotikā, the "three & sixty opinions based on the doctrines of ascetics" is DN 1 "together with personal-entity view" (sakkāyadiṭṭhi). BB notes - which I thought was pretty wild - that this is explicitly stated in SN 41.3, and, lo and behold, there it was: "And also the sixty-two misconceptions spoken of in the Prime Net Discourse. These views come to be when identity view exists. When identity view does not exist they do not come to be.” - SN 41.3

Looking forward to hearing from everyone. :smile:
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Re: 📍 Sabhiya has a certain question, Snp 3.6 (October 24, 2021)

Post by Ceisiwr »

SDC wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 3:48 am Got a ton of help from Bhikkhu Bodhi's notes and the Paramatthajotikā (Buddhaghosa's commentary to Snp) this week. Did my very best to bring out some the seemingly obscure references found in this sutta.
Nice to see that you find some value in the commentaries.
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
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Re: 📍 Sabhiya has a certain question, Snp 3.6 (October 24, 2021)

Post by SDC »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 4:20 am
SDC wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 3:48 am Got a ton of help from Bhikkhu Bodhi's notes and the Paramatthajotikā (Buddhaghosa's commentary to Snp) this week. Did my very best to bring out some the seemingly obscure references found in this sutta.
Nice to see that you find some value in the commentaries.
Some ;)
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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Re: 📍 Sabhiya has a certain question, Snp 3.6 (October 24, 2021)

Post by Ceisiwr »

SDC wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 4:25 am
Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 4:20 am
SDC wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 3:48 am Got a ton of help from Bhikkhu Bodhi's notes and the Paramatthajotikā (Buddhaghosa's commentary to Snp) this week. Did my very best to bring out some the seemingly obscure references found in this sutta.
Nice to see that you find some value in the commentaries.
Some ;)
The commentaries aren't perfect, but also they are indispensable.
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
User avatar
SDC
Posts: 9058
Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2009 11:08 pm

Re: 📍 Sabhiya has a certain question, Snp 3.6 (October 24, 2021)

Post by SDC »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 4:49 am
SDC wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 4:25 am
Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 4:20 am

Nice to see that you find some value in the commentaries.
Some ;)
The commentaries aren't perfect, but also they are indispensable.
With the high and sometimes poetic speech of these verses, it can be tough to make use of certain terms and phrases. That’s where an ancient perspective is extremely useful.
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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