🟧 Crossed over, gone beyond... (Week of October 31, 2021)

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🟧 Crossed over, gone beyond... (Week of October 31, 2021)

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:reading:

The suttas at the tail-end of the Saḷāyatanasaṁyutta (SN 35) are chock-full of great similes. This week's selection is perhaps one of the most well-known of the bunch. A man fleeing from deadly vipers, five murderous enemies, a sixth murder (who is an intimate companion), and an empty village about to be attacked by raiders. Coming to an expanse of water he sees a far shore that is safe from the danger and fear of the near shore where he stands. A sutta that describes what is closest to the center of experience as a dangerous place that we should flee, the Āsīvisopamasutta (SN 35.238) is a bold reminder that there is only one place that is truly safe.

Enjoy. :smile:
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📍 Crossed over, gone beyond... (Week of October 31, 2021)

Post by SDC »

:reading:


Saṁyutta Nikāya
Āsīvisopamasutta (The Simile of the Vipers) SN 35.238 (PTS 4.173–4.175)
Translated by Bhikkhu Bodhi



  • “Bhikkhus, suppose there were four vipers of fierce heat and deadly venom. Then a man would come along wanting to live, not wanting to die, desiring happiness and averse to suffering. They would tell him: ‘Good man, these four vipers are of fierce heat and deadly venom. From time to time they must be lifted up; from time to time they must be bathed; from time to time they must be fed; from time to time they must be laid to rest. But if one or another of these vipers ever becomes angry with you, then, good man, you will meet death or deadly suffering. Do whatever has to be done, good man!’

    “Then, bhikkhus, afraid of the four vipers of fierce heat and deadly venom, that man would flee in one direction or another. They would tell him: ‘Good man, five murderous enemies are pursuing you, thinking, “Wherever we see him, we will take his life right on the spot.” Do whatever has to be done, good man!’

    “Then, bhikkhus, afraid of the four vipers of fierce heat and deadly venom, and of the five murderous enemies, that man would flee in one direction or another. They would tell him: ‘Good man, a sixth murderer, an intimate companion, is pursuing you with drawn sword, thinking, “Wherever I see him I will cut off his head right on the spot.” Do whatever has to be done, good man!’

    “Then, bhikkhus, afraid of the four vipers of fierce heat and deadly venom, and of the five murderous enemies, and of the sixth murderer, the intimate companion with drawn sword, that man would flee in one direction or another. He would see an empty village. Whatever house he enters is void, deserted, empty. Whatever pot he takes hold of is void, hollow, empty. They would tell him: ‘Good man, just now village-attacking dacoits will raid this empty village. Do whatever has to be done, good man!’

    “Then, bhikkhus, afraid of the four vipers of fierce heat and deadly venom, and of the five murderous enemies, and of the sixth murderer—the intimate companion with drawn sword—and of the village-attacking dacoits, that man would flee in one direction or another. He would see a great expanse of water whose near shore was dangerous and fearful, and whose further shore was safe and free from danger, but there would be no ferryboat or bridge for crossing over from the near shore to the far shore.

    “Then the man would think: ‘There is this great expanse of water whose near shore is dangerous and fearful, and whose further shore is safe and free from danger, but there is no ferryboat or bridge for crossing over. Let me collect grass, twigs, branches, and foliage, and bind them together into a raft, so that by means of that raft, making an effort with my hands and feet, I can get safely across to the far shore.’

    “Then the man would collect grass, twigs, branches, and foliage, and bind them together into a raft, so that by means of that raft, making an effort with his hands and feet, he would get safely across to the far shore. Crossed over, gone beyond, the brahmin stands on high ground.

    “I have made up this simile, bhikkhus, in order to convey a meaning. This is the meaning here: ‘The four vipers of fierce heat and deadly venom’: this is a designation for the four great elements—the earth element, the water element, the heat element, the air element.

    “‘The five murderous enemies’: this is a designation for the five aggregates subject to clinging; that is, the material form aggregate subject to clinging, the feeling aggregate subject to clinging, the perception aggregate subject to clinging, the volitional formations aggregate subject to clinging, the consciousness aggregate subject to clinging.

    “‘The sixth murderer, the intimate companion with drawn sword’: this is a designation for delight and lust.

    “‘The empty village’: this is a designation for the six internal sense bases. If, bhikkhus, a wise, competent, intelligent person examines them by way of the eye, they appear to be void, hollow, empty. If he examines them by way of the ear… by way of the mind, they appear to be void, hollow, empty.

    “‘Village-attacking dacoits’: this is a designation for the six external sense bases. The eye, bhikkhus, is attacked by agreeable and disagreeable forms. The ear … The nose … The tongue … The body … The mind is attacked by agreeable and disagreeable mental phenomena.

    “‘The great expanse of water’: this is a designation for the four floods: the flood of sensuality, the flood of existence, the flood of views, and the flood of ignorance.

    “‘The near shore, which is dangerous and fearful’: this is a designation for identity.

    “‘The further shore, which is safe and free from danger’: this is a designation for Nibbāna.

    “‘The raft’: this is a designation for the Noble Eightfold Path; that is, right view … right concentration.

    “‘Making effort with hands and feet’: this is a designation for the arousing of energy.

    “‘Crossed over, gone beyond, the brahmin stands on high ground’: this is a designation for the arahant.”
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📍 Crossed over, gone beyond... (Week of October 31, 2021)

Post by SDC »

Thoughts?


Some additional excerpts for consideration:

  • "four vipers of fierce heat and deadly venom" = four great elements

    Bhikkhus, the uninstructed worldling might experience revulsion towards this body composed of the four great elements; he might become dispassionate towards it and be liberated from it. For what reason? Because growth and decline is seen in this body composed of the four great elements, it is seen being taken up and laid aside. Therefore the uninstructed worldling might experience revulsion towards this body composed of the four great elements; he might become dispassionate towards it and be liberated from it. - SN 12.61
  • "five murderous enemies" = five aggregates subject to clinging

    The four great elements, bhikkhu, are the cause and condition for the manifestation of the form aggregate. Contact is the cause and condition for the manifestation of the feeling aggregate. Contact is the cause and condition for the manifestation of the perception aggregate. Contact is the cause and condition for the manifestation of the volitional formations aggregate. Name-and-form is the cause and condition for the manifestation of the consciousness aggregate.” -SN 22.82

    ---

    ”Venerable sir, is that clinging the same as these five aggregates subject to clinging, or is the clinging something apart from the five aggregates subject to clinging?”

    “Bhikkhus, that clinging is neither the same as these five aggregates subject to clinging, nor is the clinging something apart from the five aggregates subject to clinging. But rather, the desire and lust for them, that is the clinging there.”

    Saying, “Good, venerable sir,” that bhikkhu … asked the Blessed One a further question:

    “But, venerable sir, can there be diversity in the desire and lust for the five aggregates subject to clinging?”

    “There can be, bhikkhu,” the Blessed One said. “Here, bhikkhu, it occurs to someone: ‘May I have such form in the future! May I have such feeling in the future! May I have such perception in the future! May I have such volitional formations in the future! May I have such consciousness in the future!’ Thus, bhikkhu, there can be diversity in the desire and lust for the five aggregates subject to clinging.”
    -SN 22.82
  • "the sixth murderer, the intimate companion with drawn sword" = delight and lust

    At Savatthi. “Bhikkhus, a bhikkhu sees as impermanent form which is actually impermanent: that is his right view. Seeing rightly, he experiences revulsion. With the destruction of delight comes the destruction of lust; with the destruction of lust comes the destruction of delight. With the destruction of delight and lust the mind is liberated and is said to be well liberated.

    “A bhikkhu sees as impermanent feeling which is actually impermanent … perception which is actually impermanent … volitional formations which are actually impermanent … consciousness which is actually impermanent: that is his right view…. With the destruction of delight and lust the mind is liberated and is said to be well liberated.”
    -SN 22.51
    ---

    …Consciousness, bhikkhus, while standing, might stand engaged with form; based upon form, established upon form, with a sprinkling of delight, it might come to growth, increase, and expansion. Or consciousness, while standing, might stand engaged with feeling … engaged with perception … engaged with volitional formations; based upon volitional formations, established upon volitional formations, with a sprinkling of delight, it might come to growth, increase, and expansion. -SN 22.54
  • "an empty village" = six internal sense base
    "Village-attacking dacoits" = six external sense base

    Then the Venerable Ānanda approached the Blessed One … and said to him: “Venerable sir, it is said, ‘Empty is the world, empty is the world.’ In what way, venerable sir, is it said, ‘Empty is the world’?”

    “It is, Ānanda, because it is empty of self and of what belongs to self that it is said, ‘Empty is the world.’ And what is empty of self and of what belongs to self? The eye, Ānanda, is empty of self and of what belongs to self. Forms are empty of self and of what belongs to self. Eye-consciousness is empty of self and of what belongs to self. Eye-contact is empty of self and of what belongs to self…. Whatever feeling arises with mind-contact as condition—whether pleasant or painful or neither-painful-nor-pleasant—that too is empty of self and of what belongs to self.

    “It is, Ānanda, because it is empty of self and of what belongs to self that it is said, ‘Empty is the world.’”
    -SN 35.85
  • The near shore, which is dangerous and fearful’: this is a designation for identity.

    Venerable sir, how does identity view come to be?”

    “Here, bhikkhu, the uninstructed worldling, who is not a seer of the noble ones and is unskilled and undisciplined in their Dhamma, who is not a seer of superior persons and is unskilled and undisciplined in their Dhamma, regards form as self, or self as possessing form, or form as in self, or self as in form. He regards feeling as self … perception as self … volitional formations as self … consciousness as self, or self as possessing consciousness, or consciousness as in self, or self as in consciousness. That is how identity view comes to be.”

    “But, venerable sir, how does identity view not come to be?”

    “Here, bhikkhu, the instructed noble disciple, who is a seer of the noble ones and is skilled and disciplined in their Dhamma, who is a seer of superior persons and is skilled and disciplined in their Dhamma, does not regard form as self, or self as possessing form, or form as in self, or self as in form. He does not regard feeling as self … perception as self … volitional formations as self … consciousness as self, or self as possessing consciousness, or consciousness as in self, or self as in consciousness. That is how identity view does not come to be.”
    -SN 22.82
  • Making effort with hands and feet’: this is a designation for the arousing of energy

    Having approached, he paid homage to the Blessed One, stood to one side, and said to him:

    “How, dear sir, did you cross the flood?”

    “By not halting, friend, and by not straining I crossed the flood.”

    “But how is it, dear sir, that by not halting and by not straining you crossed the flood?”

    “When I came to a standstill, friend, then I sank; but when I struggled, then I got swept away. It is in this way, friend, that by not halting and by not straining I crossed the flood.”
    - SN 1.1
Looking forward to hearing from everyone. :smile:
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Re: 📍 Crossed over, gone beyond... (Week of October 31, 2021)

Post by nirodh27 »

Hi SDC,

I love this sutta. The four vipers simile is very apt to describe the reality in which we live in. By following a simile that I've found in the writings of Nyanamoli of Hillside Hermitage that I've discovered thanks to you, this simile greatly convey the sensation that we are prey of the four vipers, and so we are prey to Dukkha all the time, an unpleasant sensation for the one that is aware of that.

It is especially apt since there's no direct link (that I see in the translation) between serving the vipers well and the fact that they can get mad at you. If you serve them well maybe you will have more hope to be treated well, but they can get mad to you even if you serve them well. Those vipers are temperamental, moody and capriocious. You have to serve them well, but no guarantee at all that you will be treated in line with the efforts you put in.

SN12.16 is also very peculiar, since it says that also worldling can get dispassion from body (I remember the phrase of Rita Levi-Montalcini, the most famous scientist in Italy deceased in 2012: ""The body does what it wants, I am the mind" which is a clear statement about this possibility from intelligent worldlings and at the same time the impossibility to consider dispassion about the mind from a being that has been gifted with pride, fame and unique skills) while the sutta continues saying that instead that the worlding have grasped mentality for too long to even think that dispassion is an option:
“But, bhikkhus, as to that which is called ‘mind’ and ‘mentality’ and ‘consciousness’ —the uninstructed worldling is unable to experience revulsion towards it, unable to become dispassionate towards it and be liberated from it. For what reason? Because for a long time this has been held to by him, appropriated, and grasped thus: ‘This is mine, this I am, this is my self.’ Therefore the uninstructed worldling is unable to experience revulsion towards it, unable to become dispassionate towards it and be liberated from it.
This clearly indicates that the self is (an is that is not a statement of existence, but a weak dependently arisen "is" since it is removed by removing the acquisition) an acquisition of an aggregate or a set of them. That is why I'm a little hesitant to accept the empty village simile. So I read it as empty of Sukha, of something that is worth to be called Sukha, peace, security, that would mean also from a controllable and only sukha self, but not limited to it. Jhanas, that are linked to the six internal sense fields, for example could be still considered inside of the empty village if we are strict. Of course, every simile has limits, since Jhanas would in reality be in the middle from the near and far shore, it is the thing that inclines you to the far shore after the initial effort when you u-turned your inclinations to the values of Dhamma instead of those of the World.

If we use the standard definition of self that is what is happiness and what is under your control, all is fine. The village (six internal sense spheres) is empty of self by definition. But if we use self in the manner of SN12.16 being the self actually an acquisition of the aggregates that self is a fact of experience and in fact for the worldling is possible to appropriate the aggregate of body as self, so possible that the Buddha says that is is better to appropriate the body as self than the mind since the body lasts for years.

It would be fantastic to immediatly find an empty village, the problem is that whatever I have found is instead a village full of acquisitions!

That is how I intend the "it is said/they say the wold is empty of self" so that the mind, just like the body is cleared from acquisitions as self for some worldlings, is emptied, cleared of selves (acquisitions and ideas about the aggregates) and this is why the Buddha doesn't respond to Vacchagotta, because for Vacchagotta the world is not empty of self, for Sotapannas the world is regarded as empty of self thanks to the arising of the condition of wisdom and only for Arahants the world is experienced as fully empty of any form of self and conceit I am. "it is said that the world is empty of self": it is said by who? By Sotapannas and more so Arahants, it's their world. They got to the end of the world.

Because to say that there's no self (so no mistaken idea of self and no appropriation of aggregates) is true for the Buddha, but not for Vacchagotta that has made the appropriation. The work of emptying the experience from self is the work of seeing that self/appropriation as not fit to be called self, a value judgement as Thanissaro would say and an action, an action that one can or cannot do dependant on conditions (reflection, wisdom). This is supported by the meditation of emptiness in the MN which the forest is still there, but the Buddha emptied his mind from the perception of it. That is why I found phrases like "you discover that the self was never there in the first place" misguided since they are true only in very particular sense, and false in many others because the acquisition, which is the crux of the matter, was there.

The world is empty of the forest, but that doesn't mean that there's no forest at all, there's no forest in your experience. For the self, that is fine because it is an acquisition and an idea so when it's not in experience by removing the conditions, the problem is solved because you are not born and you cannot die. While the forest is still there even while the perception of it is not, so present that a broken trunk can get mad at you anytime.
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Re: 📍 Crossed over, gone beyond... (Week of October 31, 2021)

Post by nirodh27 »

And btw Thank you again SDC for making me discover Hillside Hermitage and Nyanamoli's teachings :bow:
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Re: 📍 Crossed over, gone beyond... (Week of October 31, 2021)

Post by mjaviem »

  • Crossed over, gone beyond, the brahmin stands on high ground’: this is a designation for the arahant.”
    ...
    (4) “And what is the one who has crossed over and gone beyond, the brahmin who stands on high ground? Here, with the destruction of the taints, some person has realized for himself with direct knowledge, in this very life, the taintless liberation of mind, liberation by wisdom, and having entered upon it, he dwells in it. This is called the person who has crossed over and gone beyond, the brahmin who stands on high ground.
    ...
    One who has comprehended things high and low,
    burnt them up, so they’re gone and exist no more:
    that sage who has lived the spiritual life,
    reached the world’s end, is called
    “one who has gone beyond.” - AN 4.5
Namo Tassa Bhagavato Arahato Sammā Sambuddhassa
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Re: 📍 Crossed over, gone beyond... (Week of October 31, 2021)

Post by SDC »

nirodh27 wrote: Thu Nov 04, 2021 9:33 am And btw Thank you again SDC for making me discover Hillside Hermitage and Nyanamoli's teachings :bow:
:twothumbsup:
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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Re: 📍 Crossed over, gone beyond... (Week of October 31, 2021)

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mjaviem wrote: Fri Nov 05, 2021 1:53 am
  • Crossed over, gone beyond, the brahmin stands on high ground’: this is a designation for the arahant.”
    ...
    (4) “And what is the one who has crossed over and gone beyond, the brahmin who stands on high ground? Here, with the destruction of the taints, some person has realized for himself with direct knowledge, in this very life, the taintless liberation of mind, liberation by wisdom, and having entered upon it, he dwells in it. This is called the person who has crossed over and gone beyond, the brahmin who stands on high ground.
    ...
    One who has comprehended things high and low,
    burnt them up, so they’re gone and exist no more:
    that sage who has lived the spiritual life,
    reached the world’s end, is called
    “one who has gone beyond.” - AN 4.5
Great sutta! :thumbsup:
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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Re: 📍 Crossed over, gone beyond... (Week of October 31, 2021)

Post by Pulsar »

nirodh27 wrote
That is why I'm a little hesitant to accept the empty village simile.
why the hesitancy? Buddha basically is saying there is nothing substantial here, hence empty.
Five aggregates are compared to five murderous enemies.
The 6th murderer is missing in the agama version, perhaps because delight and lust are already associated with the clinging aggregates.
Aggregates are out to get the individual, who clings to them. Be wary of the aggregates!
The empty village is a designation for the six internal sense bases. If a wise person examines them by way of eye they appear to be void, hollow, empty. Repeated for remaining sense bases.
Village attacking dacoits: This is a designation for the six external sense bases...
Sutta basically warns us that we are Internally and externally confronted by
a bunch of thieves.
What can the poor worldling do but escape to the further shore "Nibbana" by practicing the 8-fold path.
The successful person crosses the great expanse of water that represents, t
  • the flood of sensuality,
  • the flood of existence,
  • the flood of views
and
  • the flood of existence.
The further shore is free thieves, is safe and secure.
Arahant is neither disturbed by the aggregates, nor the sensual attractions of the external sense bases.

Nirodh27 you also wrote
Jhanas, that are linked to the six internal sense fields, for example could be still considered inside of the empty village if we are strict.
My impression is that the jhanic person has gone beyond the sensory world.
If one follows the Samma sati according to SN 47.42, at the end of it, before entering 1st jhana,
form, feeling, perception and dhammas are left behind. There is nothing more to house the consciousness.
Jhana involves a matter of gaining stability, in what was already gained during Samma sati.

World we live in, is the Kama Loka, (sensory world). The practitioner leaves the sensory world behind to enter the Fine material domain of Samma Samadhi, or the four jhanas.
With love :candle:
PS this I think is one of the most meaningful suttas in the entire canon, bringing emptiness home.
So thank you Dear SDC.
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Re: 📍 Crossed over, gone beyond... (Week of October 31, 2021)

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SDC wrote: Sun Oct 31, 2021 2:46 am Thoughts?
...
SN 35.238 shows the extent of our foolishness and confusion. We are so fools and so confused as to not being afraid of the four elements, the five aggregates subject to clinging, delight and lust, agreeable and disagreeable forms, sounds, odors, flavors, tactiles and mental phenomena. We really don't see danger in all this and are capable of playing with vipers and hanging around with an intimate murderer companion. We might not know where to flee, but that's not our immediate problem, our immediate problem is we can't even believe those to be venomous vipers nor that murderers are seeking after us. We nod but we don't believe it. It's true this is a simile and no actual vipers and murderers are after us but what it's true is elements are venomous viper-like threats, aggregates subject to clinging are murderer-like threats and so on, and we are really bound to death if we don't flee away.
Namo Tassa Bhagavato Arahato Sammā Sambuddhassa
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Re: 📍 Crossed over, gone beyond... (Week of October 31, 2021)

Post by Pulsar »

Correcting an error in my last comment ...
It should read The further shore is free OF thieves, and is safe and secure.
Arahant that has reached the further shore, is not disturbed by the aggregates, nor the sensual attractions of the external sense bases. As for the elements, s/he cannot help it, until the body is
discarded.
Yes mjaviem, time to flee the clutch of rising aggregates, I think we know where to flee, don't we???
With love :candle:
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Re: 📍 Crossed over, gone beyond... (Week of October 31, 2021)

Post by SDC »

mjaviem wrote: Sat Nov 06, 2021 2:07 am
SDC wrote: Sun Oct 31, 2021 2:46 am Thoughts?
...
SN 35.238 shows the extent of our foolishness and confusion. We are so fools and so confused as to not being afraid of the four elements, the five aggregates subject to clinging, delight and lust, agreeable and disagreeable forms, sounds, odors, flavors, tactiles and mental phenomena. We really don't see danger in all this and are capable of playing with vipers and hanging around with an intimate murderer companion. We might not know where to flee, but that's not our immediate problem, our immediate problem is we can't even believe those to be venomous vipers nor that murderers are seeking after us. We nod but we don't believe it. It's true this is a simile and no actual vipers and murderers are after us but what it's true is elements are venomous viper-like threats, aggregates subject to clinging are murderer-like threats and so on, and we are really bound to death if we don't flee away.
Great post.

Yes, the sutta is a harsh reminder that these things are not here for us. Not here for our pleasure. Not here to protect us. And even if they do provide pleasure and protection, they are still what will kill us in the end. Yikes!
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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