nirodh27 wrote: ↑Sat Nov 13, 2021 1:26 am
First step: in the first jhana then without the 5 senses.
Fifth step: If in the formless then without the 5 senses.
The point is that is useless to state again what is already taken out in earlier steps in an instruction. If you enter a club and they ask you "please give us your coat" at the entrance they don't come again when you're eating to say to you "please give us your coat". Obiouvsly it would be strange to find an instruction to abandon vitakka&vicara in fourth jhana. That means that there's a strange repetiton of the same thing using different words (but that really makes me question the Buddha as a Teacher) or, more likely, the shutdown of the senses that you read in the pericope in Pali is simply the seclusion from desires.
What is overcome and transcended in order to enter the formless is rūpa, but rūpa also includes mental objects.
"the external mind objects cognized by mind consciousness—belong to the rūpa aggregate" - MN 28/MĀ 30
Rūpa aggregate = any object of the 6 senses.
Vedanā aggregate = hedonic tone of the experience.
Sañña aggregate = conceptualisation/designation of it.
Formations aggregate = intentions towards it.
Consciousness aggregate = discriminating awareness.
You seem to be missing all the points that I've made. I've passed all the similes and not only the one that supports a position for a reason. For Nirodha Samapatti, I've actually agreed with you. For the liquor, I prefer the general reading than the narrow one, but I've said no matter how you read it. Seeing a woman cannot stop the celibate life and the diametrical opposed thing is not to be celibate or pursuing womans to make sex with them. This invalidates your position. I've also made the point that the similes can be read both in a narrow sense than in more general terms. I've shown why using a simile of thorn instead of simply say that one thing is diametrically opposed, because the main significance is that you have to remove the thorn. I've also shown how to actually the Buddha praises the removal of the thorn that is different in every case and it is clearly stated how the elders removed the thorn of sound. It is not a list of diametrically opposed thing, the story that precedes the list is there for showing you that the similes are there for suggesting the removal of eventual thorns, precisely what the monks did and they got praised for.
"To one who is keeping morality, breaches of morality are a thorn; to one guarding the senses, bodily adornments are a thorn; to one cultivating [the perception] of foulness, an appearance of purity is a thorn; to one cultivating loving-kindness, anger is a thorn; to one abstaining from liquor, drinking liquor is a thorn; to one leading a celibate life, looking at the female form is a thorn; to one entering the first absorption, noise is a thorn; to one entering the second absorption, [directed] awareness and [sustained] contemplation (vitakka-vicāra) is a thorn; to one entering the third absorption, rapture is a thorn; to one entering the fourth absorption, the inhalations and exhalations are a thorn; to one entering the sphere of [boundless] space, the perception of form is a thorn; to one entering the sphere of [boundless] consciousness, the perception of the sphere of [boundless] space is a thorn; to one entering the sphere of nothingness, the perception of the sphere of [boundless] consciousness is a thorn; to one entering the sphere of [neither-perception-nor-]nonperception, the perception of the sphere of nothingness is a thorn; to one entering the concentration by the cessation of perception and knowing, perception and knowing are a thorn."
- MĀ 84
"To one who is keeping morality, breaches of morality are a thorn;
To one keeping morality, immorality is a thorn. When acting in an immoral way you are no longer keeping morality.
To one guarding the senses, bodily adornments are a thorn
To one guarding the senses, bodily adornments are a thorn. When adorning the body you are no longer practicing sense restraint.
To one cultivating [the perception] of foulness, an appearance of purity is a thorn
To one cultivating foulness, the appearance of purity is a thorn. When purity appears you are no longer focusing on the impure.
To one cultivating loving-kindness, anger is a thorn
To one cultivating loving-kindness, anger is a thorn. When anger is present you are no longer experiencing metta.
To one abstaining from liquor, drinking liquor is a thorn
To one abstaining from alcohol, drinking is a thorn. When drinking you are no longer being abstinent.
To one leading a celibate life, looking at the female form is a thorn
To one leading a celibate life, looking at whichever sex you are attracted to is a thorn. When looking at people with sexual lust, you are no longer living a celibate life.
To one entering the first absorption, noise is a thorn
To one entering the 1st absorption, sound is a thorn. When hearing a sound, you are not in the 1st absorption.
To one entering the second absorption, [directed] awareness and [sustained] contemplation (vitakka-vicāra) is a thorn
To one entering the 2nd absorption, vitakka-vicāra is a thorn. When experiencing vitakka-vicāra, you are not in the 2nd absorption.
We could easily rephrase this, without any loss of meaning, as
- Immorality blocks or destroys morality.
- Adorning the body blocks or destroys sense-restraint.
- Anger blocks or destroys mettā.
- Drinking alcohol blocks or destroys abstinence.
- Lusting after men or women (or whatever) blocks or destroys restraining from sexual lust.
- Experiencing sound blocks or destroys entry into the 1st Jhāna.
- Experiencing vitakka-vicāra blocks or destroys entry into the 2nd Jhāna.
Certainly when there is loud noise, this will be a distraction. This is why the monks and nuns would move away from crowds and so forth. The same in not mixing too much with members of the opposite sex. That doesn't then mean they still hear sounds whilst in Jhāna. As with vitakka-vicāra being an obstacle for the 2nd Jhāna, sound itself is an obstacle for attaining the first. Certainly this seems to be how the Dharmaguptakas understood it, although being doctrinally close to Theravāda this shouldn't be surprising
云何九證法?謂九盡: 若入初禪,則聲 刺 滅。
"What are the the 9 states to be attained? That is to say the 9 Cessations. When one enters the First Dhyana, the thorn of sounds ceases."
Moving to a quiet area is simply a means for overcoming all sound. If the mind is distracted by loud sounds then, obviously, the mind will be distracted. By moving to a quiet area the mind is disturbed less. By giving less attention to sound and more attention to the meditation object, the meditator can begin to develop the singular perception that is required for Jhāna. Having multiple perceptions, which is the state you have when you are aware of all of the senses, is a hindrance to Jhāna.
“There are, Ānanda, beings who are diverse in body and diverse in perception, such as human beings, some gods, and some beings in the lower realms. This is the first station for consciousness.
“There are beings who are diverse in body but identical in perception, such as the gods of the Brahma-order who are generated through the first (jhāna). This is the second station for consciousness.
“There are beings who are identical in body but diverse in perception, such as the gods of streaming radiance. This is the third station for consciousness.
“There are beings who are identical in body and identical in perception, such as the gods of refulgent beauty. This is the fourth station for consciousness.
“There are beings who, through the complete surmounting of perceptions of material form, the passing away of perceptions of impingement, and non-attention to perceptions of diversity, (contemplating) ‘Space is infinite,’ arrive at the base of the infinity of space. This is the fifth station for consciousness. - DN 15
Sohaṁ tathā karissāmi yathā me puna na vicikicchā uppajjissati, na amanasikāro, na thinamiddhaṁ, na chambhitattaṁ, na uppilaṁ, na duṭṭhullaṁ, na accāraddhavīriyaṁ, na atilīnavīriyaṁ, na abhijappā, na nānattasaññā’ti.
I’ll make sure that neither doubt nor loss of focus nor dullness and drowsiness nor terror nor excitement nor discomfort nor excessive energy nor overly lax energy nor longing nor perception of diversity will arise in me again.’ - MN 128
“Mendicants, diversity of elements gives rise to diversity of perceptions. Diversity of perceptions gives rise to diversity of intentions. Diversity of intentions gives rise to diversity of desires. Diversity of desires gives rise to diversity of passions. Diversity of passions gives rise to diversity of searches." - SN 14.8
MN 128 is very interesting, in that perception of diversity (5 senses) is said to be a hindrance
before attaining the 1st Jhāna. If we take something like the Kasiṇas this makes sense, since they are non-dual states (and so of a singular perception)
“One person perceives the air kasiṇa above, below, across, non-dual (advayaṁ), measureless.”
My view of how meditation works in relation to the path would be, roughly
Body contemplation > earth element > earth kasiṇa > absorption > leave > insight > knowledge > awakening.
Personally I agree with Sylvester, Sujato, the Visuddhimagga and the unnamed Ābhidhammikas in the Tattvasiddhi-Śāstra in reading the kāmā as being external objects. Seclusion then in the 1st Jhāna pericope then means to be away from the objects which can trigger the underlying tendencies, such as lust, thus intending towards renunciation.
Diversity of elements gives rise to diversity of perceptions. Diversity of perceptions gives rise to diversity of intentions. Diversity of intentions gives rise to diversity of desires. Diversity of desires gives rise to diversity of passions.
By tranquilising the mind and giving rise to the nimitta, you are no longer giving attention towards the things in the world which stimulate lust. You no longer intend towards them, but away from them. You give them up. You experience a bliss and happiness that is not based on them. The Jhāna then burns lust away.