🟩 Mind doesn't obsess the mind (Weeks of November 14 and 21, 2021)

Where we gather to focus on a single discourse or thematic collection from the Sutta Piṭaka (new selection every two weeks)
pulga
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Re: 📍 Mind doesn't obsess the mind (Week of November 14, 2021)

Post by pulga »

ssasny wrote: Mon Nov 15, 2021 7:57 pm
We can toggle between the active awareness of an object (a foreground) to a deeper general way things are for us (background/ peripheral). If we place attention onto this 'background' it will then become the 'foreground.'
That’s correct. But it’s worth noting that Phenomenology puts forth the idea that there’s both an inner horizon and an outer horizon. Their ideas on the structure of experience differ in significant ways, but both the phenomenologist Aaron Gurwitsch and Ven. Ñanavira break experience down into a tripartite structure.
Every field of consciousness comprises three domains or, so to speak, extends in three dimensions. First, the theme: that with which the subject is dealing, which at the given moment occupies the ‘focus’ of his attention, engrosses his mind, and upon which his mental activity concentrates. Secondly, the thematic field which we define as the totality of facts, co-present with the theme, which are experienced as having material relevancy or pertinence to the theme. In the third place, the margin comprises facts which are merely co-present with the theme, but have no material relevancy to it. We shall endeavor to bring out the type of organization which prevails in each of these domains and determines both the relationship between the data that belong to that domain and its relationship to the two others, particularly to the theme. By dimensional differences between organizational forms we mean differences between types of organization which pertain to, and are characteristic of the three dimensions in which every field of consciousness extends. Each of the above types of organization has a specific formal structure of its own, independent of the organized content and the particular forms of organization, which depend upon the content to some extent. It is the formal structure of these types of organization which will primarily interest us here. With the pattern theme-thematic field-margin, we intend to present a formal invariant of all fields of consciousness. ~ Gurwitsch, The Field of Consciousness pgs. 55 & 56
Now we see that three levels of the hierarchy are involved: on top, at the most general level of the three, we have a thing enduring eternally unchanged; below this, we have a thing changing at regular intervals of one unit of duration, one moment; and below this again, in each of these regular intervals, in each of these moments, we have an infinite series of moments of lesser order accelerating and coming to an end. We have only to take into account an eternal thing of still higher order of generality to see that our former eternal thing will now be changing at regular intervals, that the thing formerly changing at regular intervals will be accelerating its changes (and the series of changes repeatedly coming to an end at regular intervals), and that the formerly accelerating series will be a doubly accelerating series of series. There is no difficulty in extending the scheme infinitely in both directions of the hierarchy; and when we have done so we see that there is no place for anything absolutely enduring forever, and that there is no place for anything absolutely without duration. ~ Ñanavira, FS II
So the peripheral would be Gurwitsch’s margin, but if we shift our attention to the margin while it does become the foreground, it does so as an “idea” against a more general background of itself. This is how we experience the peripheral as it endures.
The question of self-identity arises either when a thing is seen from two points of view at once (as in reflexion, for example; or when it is at the same time the object of two different senses—I am now both looking at my pen and touching it with my fingers, and I might wonder if it is the same pen in the two simultaneous experiences [see RŪPA]), or when a thing is seen to endure in time, when the question may be asked if it continues to be the same thing (the answer being, that a thing at any one given level of generality is the invariant of a transformation—see ANICCA [a] & FUNDAMENTAL STRUCTURE—, and that 'to remain the same' means just this). SN Attā, emphasis added
What was once the foreground falls into the background of the inner horizon of the less general and more concrete. In the language of Gurwitsch satisampajañña is shifting our attention from the theme to the thematic field and observing what we are doing as we are doing it, i.e. as it endures in time. This is the “vertical view” at “right angles” to the horizontal that Ven. Ñanavira refers to in his writings. The “theme” is still present, but no longer the focus of attention, i.e. it falls into the background of the inner horizon.

But to cut to the point, the mere fact that there is change at all undermines the ontological moorings of the background. And that change is inevitable and beyond our control undermines the notion of self. Citta exists eternally as the most general self-same background of experience, its self-identity unchanged by the appearance (uppāda), the change while standing ( thitassa aññathattam) , and disappearance (vayo) that define it for what it is, but its existence is only relative. Cf. FS I footnote [c]:
The images involved in thinking must, individually at least [though not necessarily in association], already in some sense be given—i.e. as what is elsewhere, or at some other time, or both—at the immediate level, before they can be thought. Perhaps the method of this Note will suggest a reconciliation between the Parmenidean absolute denial of the existence of no thing, with its corollary, the absolute existence of whatever does exist, and the merely relative existence of every thing as implied by the undeniable fact of change. emphasis added
"Dhammā=Ideas. This is the clue to much of the Buddha's teaching." ~ Ven. Ñanavira, Commonplace Book
ssasny
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Re: 📍 Mind doesn't obsess the mind (Week of November 14, 2021)

Post by ssasny »

Thank you, Pulga, for your great insights and quotes.
I've been spending some time with Ven. Akincano's essay 'Uppādavaya', as you mentioned it above. I note that it didn't make it into my printed book form of his essays, I find it a bit of a jumble and wonder if that is why. Or maybe he wrote it after the book was printed.

A few quotes from there that seem relevant to the idea of citta , as, you write,
"the most general self-same background of experience, its self-identity unchanged by the appearance (uppāda), the change while standing ( thitassa aññathattam) , and disappearance (vayo) that define it for what it is, but its existence is only relative. "


#12 Its appearance [of an object, X] does not take place before the thing endures. Its disappearance does not take place after the thing endures. The relation here is not chronological, but ontological. Its having-appeared and its having-not-disappeared ontologically precede and make possible the duration of a presently enduring thing. Its appearance and its disappearance are the limits of the duration of an enduring thing insofar as they determine the duration by providing the basis that is required for a thing—whether it is past, future or present, internal or external, gross or subtle, inferior or superior, far or near (cf. SN 22.59)—to be present.

#19 The recognition that there is this fundamental structure because of which things can be there, presently enduring, involves the following insight: anything that I can be aware of fully depends on something that precedes me, something that I cannot possibly control, something that I am utterly incapable of influencing in any way.

#23
I am aware that something (the body, the feeling, the mood, etc.) is there, presently enduring. This thing presents itself as ‘mine’. And yet I would not be having this experience of this thing if it had not (independently from me) made an appearance. It is, but it could not be. It could not have appeared—in which case, it would not be mine (because for something to be mine it must, at the very least, be). This first line is a contemplation of the gratuitousness of uppāda.

Although this thing has not disappeared (because if it had, I would not be experiencing it), nevertheless, it will (at some point) disappear. For now, though, it is there, presently enduring, with this significance of having-not-yet-disappeared. When it does disappear, it will not be mine (because I cannot own something that is not there). This second line is a contemplation of the inevitability of vaya.
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SDC
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Re: 📍 Mind doesn't obsess the mind (Week of November 14, 2021)

Post by SDC »

ssasny wrote: Tue Nov 16, 2021 3:04 pm I note that it didn't make it into my printed book form of his essays, I find it a bit of a jumble and wonder if that is why. Or maybe he wrote it after the book was printed.
Hi ssasny, yes it was published about a year after the book.
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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SDC
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Re: 📍 Mind doesn't obsess the mind (Week of November 14, 2021)

Post by SDC »

Just a few more things for the group to consider:

:reading:
MN 18 wrote:…Eye consciousness arises dependent on the eye and sights. …
Ear consciousness arises dependent on the ear and sounds. …
Nose consciousness arises dependent on the nose and smells. …
Tongue consciousness arises dependent on the tongue and tastes. …
Body consciousness arises dependent on the body and touches. …

Mind consciousness arises dependent on the mind and thoughts. The meeting of the three is contact. Contact is a condition for feeling. What you feel, you perceive. What you perceive, you think about. What you think about, you proliferate. What you proliferate about is the source from which a person is beset by concepts of identity that emerge from the proliferation of perceptions. This occurs with respect to thoughts known by the mind in the past, future, and present.
I think the above is an indirect reference to citta when taken in the light of MN 44:
…Perception and feeling are mental, bound up with the mind. That is why perception and feeling are mind-determinations."
In the case of experience still bound to structure of dependent origination, will always find a a feeling present. And considering AN 10.58:
Friends, (1) all things are rooted in desire. (2) They come into being through attention. (3) They originate from contact. (4) They converge upon feeling. (5) They are headed by concentration. (6) Mindfulness exercises authority over them. (7) Wisdom is their supervisor. (8) Liberation is their core. (9) They culminate in the deathless. (10) Their consummation is nibbāna.’
…I think it makes sense to acknowledge the compounded nature of experience rather than having to force a rehashing of events for analysis. In that sense, there is always going to be some sign of the mind, citta, present.
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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SDC
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Re: 📍 Mind doesn't obsess the mind (Week of November 14, 2021)

Post by SDC »

Pulsar wrote: Tue Nov 16, 2021 2:06 pm Analyzing this...
Using my own mind? what is "mind?" it is what is reflected by my five aggregates, right?
Not all five, just perception and feeling (MN 44).

Considering these many suttas:

If citta is understood as something that is knowable only on account of its shape, i.e. mood, heart, then there is no longer a need to further attempt to gather the mind into a place where it can be observed directly. In that respect, it can only be known directly as something available in the experience - that when developed and liberated has to potential to reveal the minds of others.
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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SDC
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Re: 📍 Mind doesn't obsess the mind (Week of November 14, 2021)

Post by SDC »

ToVincent wrote: Mon Nov 15, 2021 6:56 pm
Yoniso manasikaroti : mano turns towards the origin.
:thumbsup:

I’ve also heard yoniso referred to as womb, which makes sense considering the effort is an attempt to understand a thing’s nutriment.
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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Re: 📍 Mind doesn't obsess the mind (Week of November 14, 2021)

Post by ToVincent »

SDC wrote: Tue Nov 16, 2021 4:38 pm ...

Towards the THAT (yoniso/craving) — and towards the THIS (nimitta/manifestation).

viewtopic.php?f=29&t=41831
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ssasny
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Re: 📍 Mind doesn't obsess the mind (Week of November 14, 2021)

Post by ssasny »

Hi SDC,

In regard to the Madhupiṇḍika Sutta quote you have above,

[manañcāvuso, paṭicca dhamme ca uppajjati manoviññāṇaṁ, tiṇṇaṁ saṅgati phasso, phassapaccayā vedanā, yaṁ vedeti taṁ sañjānāti, yaṁ sañjānāti taṁ vitakketi, yaṁ vitakketi taṁ papañceti, yaṁ papañceti tatonidānaṁ purisaṁ papañcasaññāsaṅkhā samudācaranti atītānāgatapaccuppannesu manoviññeyyesu dhammesu. ]

Are you saying that when there is consciousness in regard to the 6 sense bases, e.g.mind consciousness (manoviññāṇa) , typically causing a papañca cascade, is also when the 'citta' comes into play? Perhaps when sati-sampajañña is aroused?
I'm not sure I'm completely following you.
ssasny
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Re: 📍 Mind doesn't obsess the mind (Week of November 14, 2021)

Post by ssasny »

SDC wrote: Tue Nov 16, 2021 4:38 pm
I’ve also heard yoniso referred to as womb, which makes sense considering the effort is an attempt to understand a thing’s nutriment.
Yes, the word 'yoni' has the literal sense of 'womb'. The term can be literally rendered as, making in the mind according to the womb, or down to the source. An understanding of how a thing truely is. 'yoniso' is an ablatival adverb.

Here is Ven. Anālayo's entry:
https://www.buddhismuskunde.uni-hamburg ... yoniso.pdf
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SDC
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Re: 📍 Mind doesn't obsess the mind (Week of November 14, 2021)

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ssasny wrote: Tue Nov 16, 2021 4:43 pm Hi SDC,

In regard to the Madhupiṇḍika Sutta quote you have above,

[manañcāvuso, paṭicca dhamme ca uppajjati manoviññāṇaṁ, tiṇṇaṁ saṅgati phasso, phassapaccayā vedanā, yaṁ vedeti taṁ sañjānāti, yaṁ sañjānāti taṁ vitakketi, yaṁ vitakketi taṁ papañceti, yaṁ papañceti tatonidānaṁ purisaṁ papañcasaññāsaṅkhā samudācaranti atītānāgatapaccuppannesu manoviññeyyesu dhammesu. ]

Are you saying that when there is consciousness in regard to the 6 sense bases, e.g.mind consciousness (manoviññāṇa) , typically causing a papañca cascade, is also when the 'citta' comes into play? Perhaps when sati-sampajañña is aroused?
I'm not sure I'm completely following you.
To preface, I think that portion of the sutta is describing the non-ariya, which is to say that the experience is always wholly with the grain, always prone to further diffusion/proliferation, always in the direction of expansion. I also take the description in a non-linear fashion, i.e. that compounded nature is always present in the case of wrong view. From that point of view, citta is always there in some form, and it is wrong view - beset by identity - that keeps the sense base, contact, perception, feeling etc., together (as far as MN 18 is concerned).

So instead of taking the description as sequential - that attempted rehash of events - there is a whole mass, arranged according to what necessitates the presence its different layers, i.e. dependent origination. So none are the cause of the “cascade”, they are the cascade.

Feel free to let me know if I’m being unclear.
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
ToVincent
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Re: 📍 Mind doesn't obsess the mind (Week of November 14, 2021)

Post by ToVincent »

ssasny wrote: Tue Nov 16, 2021 4:49 pm .. , making in the mind according to the womb, or down to the source.
√ kṛ (karoti) does not always mean to make. It also means "to direct the mind (or thoughts)" (RV.).

And yoni also means:" place of birth , source , origin". (RV.)
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In this world, there are many people acting and yearning for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; and very few for the Unborn.
ssasny
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Re: 📍 Mind doesn't obsess the mind (Week of November 14, 2021)

Post by ssasny »

SDC wrote: Tue Nov 16, 2021 5:21 pm
From that point of view, citta is always there in some form, and it is wrong view - beset by identity - that keeps the sense base, contact, perception, feeling etc., together (as far as MN 18 is concerned).

So instead of taking the description as sequential - that attempted rehash of events - there is a whole mass, arranged according to what necessitates the presence its different layers, i.e. dependent origination. So none are the cause of the “cascade”, they are the cascade.
Thanks for this clarification, I do think I understand your point better now.
Perhaps we could say that the idea of the 'citta' here is that which is in the background, and when afflicted with Wrong View, drives the whole process of craving, ignorance, etc. And it is the citta that can be liberated from this whole process.

I should look through Madhupiṇḍika to see if the word citta is there.
Thanks for an interesting discussion.
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Re: 📍 Mind doesn't obsess the mind (Week of November 14, 2021)

Post by ToVincent »

Some people don't seem to understand the simple, yet intricate relationship between citta & mano; which is the following:

Citta needs mano to make things actual through the senses.
Citta gets caught by the sensory nature of mano - and becomes ceto (a citta influenced (polluted) by mano) .
Citta has the underlying need to be freed from that lower stage, like a drug addict feels the need to stop his drug — while still finding it "good".
Because citta is the one thing that has all under its control (SN 1.62), it "asks" mano for help.
Mano restrains itself — mano turns towards the beginning (yonisso, viz. craving) — and turns towards the nimitta (manifestation), through the sense-consciousness that is present (sambhoti), realizing (paṭicca) the duality [of eye & form, etc)] (dvayaṁ, bhikkhave, paṭicca viññāṇaṁ sambhoti - SN 35. 93).
Note that between craving and the manifestation that comes from the descent of the namarupa nidāna in the saḷāyatana nidāna, there is the A1, AZ, A3 course as seen here https://justpaste.it/804f8, and developed in another thread.
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SDC
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Re: 📍 Mind doesn't obsess the mind (Week of November 14, 2021)

Post by SDC »

ssasny wrote: Tue Nov 16, 2021 5:55 pm
I should look through Madhupiṇḍika to see if the word citta is there.
Thanks for an interesting discussion.
Cetasa towards the end. Any thoughts on that? I don’t have access to any other translators at the moment:
bhante, cetaso bhikkhu dabbajātiko, yato yato imassa dhammapariyāyassa paññāya atthaṁ upaparikkheyya, labhetheva attamanataṁ, labhetheva cetaso pasādaṁ. Ko nāmo ayaṁ, bhante, dhammapariyāyo”ti?

“Tasmātiha tvaṁ, ānanda, imaṁ dhammapariyāyaṁ madhupiṇḍikapariyāyotveva naṁ dhārehī”ti.


In the same way, wherever a sincere, capable mendicant might examine with wisdom the meaning of this exposition of the teaching they would only gain joy and clarity. Sir, what is the name of this exposition of the teaching?”

“Well, Ānanda, you may remember this exposition of the teaching as ‘The Honey-Cake Discourse’.”
Would “capable of this type of thinking” make sense?
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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Re: 📍 Mind doesn't obsess the mind (Week of November 14, 2021)

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ToVincent wrote: Tue Nov 16, 2021 6:07 pm Some people don't seem to understand the simple, yet intricate relationship between citta & mano…
We should dedicate a thread to it. :geek: :D 🤠
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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