What You Might Not Know about Jhāna & Samādhi by Kumāra Bhikkhu

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Meditation, e.g. meditation postures, developing a regular sitting practice, skillfully relating to difficulties and hindrances, etc.
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Coëmgenu
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Re: What You Might Not Know about Jhāna & Samādhi by Kumāra Bhikkhu

Post by Coëmgenu »

The contents of the Visuddhimagga = Theravādin doctrine.

If you don't know what you're talking about, you should say nothing, Joe.

If you had said nothing instead of blindly reacting, you would not have made the various foolish, hasty, and rash statements that you've made thus far in this thread.

A good lesson for you.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
Joe.c
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Re: What You Might Not Know about Jhāna & Samādhi by Kumāra Bhikkhu

Post by Joe.c »

Coëmgenu wrote: Tue Jan 10, 2023 2:44 pm The contents of the Visuddhimagga = Theravādin doctrine.

If you don't know what you're talking about, you should say nothing, Joe.
This is what I refer at the beginning.

Well seems like you have power to know and conclude that visuddhimagga is a theravadin doctrine personally? Or is this something you heard/learn from others? Or do you have direct experience to know that it is indeed said by theravadin. Do you know personally that all content in This vissudhimagga is being said by Buddha personally.

If yes, please show proof. What are the steps to know it?

If not, then why do you need to ask someone to repent? Buddha said ignore adhamma.

Also, No where in Sutta, Buddha said, you need to learn or gain confidence in visuddhimagga in future.

He only said His teaching is complete in Sutta. Practice diligently.

Btw, if you learned/heard from others and never has any knowledge that visuddhimagga is a theravadin doctrine personally. This means you don’t know the truth, you are just blindly stated (or repeating) from whatever you are hearing/learning from others.

This means you don’t know the TRUTH.
May you be relax, happy, comfortable and free of dukkhas from hearing true dhamma.
May you gain unshakable confidence in Buddha, Dhamma and (Ariya) Sangha.
Learn about Buddha/Dhamma Characters.
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Coëmgenu
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Re: What You Might Not Know about Jhāna & Samādhi by Kumāra Bhikkhu

Post by Coëmgenu »

Joe.c wrote: Tue Jan 10, 2023 3:04 pmWell seems like you have power to know and conclude that visuddhimagga is a theravadin doctrine personally? Or is this something you heard/learn from others? Or do you have direct experience to know that it is indeed said by theravadin. Do you know personally that all content in This vissudhimagga is being said by Buddha personally.
I think the underlying issue is that you don't know what "Theravāda" means and instead entertain your own personal pet definition of the term.

Theravāda refers to the doctrines of the Mahāvihāravāsins. No, I didn't personally make this up. Yes, I know this to be true based on more than speculation.

Whether the Buddha taught what is in the Visuddhimagga or didn't teach what is in the Visuddhimagga is irrelevant with regards to this fact.

Try to be more relevant with your next round of prapañca.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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SDC
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Re: What You Might Not Know about Jhāna & Samādhi by Kumāra Bhikkhu

Post by SDC »

Coëmgenu wrote: Tue Jan 10, 2023 3:45 pm
Joe.c wrote: Tue Jan 10, 2023 3:04 pmWell seems like you have power to know and conclude that visuddhimagga is a theravadin doctrine personally? Or is this something you heard/learn from others? Or do you have direct experience to know that it is indeed said by theravadin. Do you know personally that all content in This vissudhimagga is being said by Buddha personally.
I think the underlying issue is that you don't know what "Theravāda" means and instead entertain your own personal pet definition of the term.

Theravāda refers to the doctrines of the Mahāvihāravāsins. No, I didn't personally make this up. Yes, I know this to be true based on more than speculation.

Whether the Buddha taught what is in the Visuddhimagga is irrelevant.

Try to be more relevant with your next round of prapañca.
The issue nowadays is people wanting to emphasize independent “Dhamma Practice” but fail to realize that they don’t have to rewire Theravada in order to do so. Theravada is a tradition, and while that tradition has produced a variety of developments in terms of style and interpretation, none of it implies that the tradition has lost its roots.

Simple: want to practice beyond the scope of the mahavihara tradition, then do so without trying to say Theravada was meant to be something else. Such a person has a lot in common with the Theravada tradition. Like 84,000+ things in common, so they shouldn’t be so desperate to emphasize their originality. That’s enough of an affiliation to not be isolated, and while it isn’t what the Visuddhimagga described, it certainly isn’t Mahayana.

This nonsense between traditional and non-traditional has gone on long enough. Both have a legitimate place at the table, but those who want to exceed the scope of tradition don’t get to claim the name Theravada in a more noble sense. That’s ludicrous.

All in all, it seems a lot of people need to brush up on their history. Would solve have the problems that have arisen in this discussion and in the debate overall.
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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Virgo
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Re: What You Might Not Know about Jhāna & Samādhi by Kumāra Bhikkhu

Post by Virgo »

Joe.c wrote: Tue Jan 10, 2023 1:58 pm
Virgo wrote: Tue Jan 10, 2023 1:25 am
Joe.c wrote: Tue Jan 10, 2023 12:57 am

No, you are not telling the truth.
The truth is what we are seeing are the inevitable results of the EBT movement going mainstream. Dhamma practitioners are divided, at each other's throats, and the Dhamma is being weakened and beginning to look like it will be blown over by a strong wind. Also hardly anyone in the future will gain faith because they will not know what to believe, and will not be impressed with how our community argues internally.

Virgo
Don’t worry smart one will always analyze first, no blind faith ever in this teaching.
Allow me to disabuse you of the incorrect notion that smart people will do things to deteriorate the ancient Dhamma. These academic types who throw out our traditions are usually smarter than average, but they do not enter the ranks of the highly intelligent. Intelligent people create a bulwark for the Dhamma so that it may survive into the future for their posterity, whilst still preserving the essence of the path. We inherited this Dhamma because it was wrapped in rhetoric, not because it was a perfectly true and accurate depiction of the way things were. Had it not been wrapped in that rhetoric for so long, trust me, you would never even have head the words, "sila, samadhi, and wisdom." You inherited it because it was wrapped in rhetoric. Help preserve Buddhism for the future, you will be happy that you did, and so will the people who actually get to practice it in the future because you did.

Virgo
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Coëmgenu
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Re: What You Might Not Know about Jhāna & Samādhi by Kumāra Bhikkhu

Post by Coëmgenu »

SDC wrote: Tue Jan 10, 2023 3:58 pmThe issue nowadays is people wanting to emphasize independent “Dhamma Practice” but fail to realize that they don’t have to rewire Theravada in order to do so. Theravada is a tradition, and while that tradition has produced a variety of developments in terms of style and interpretation, none of it implies that the tradition has lost its roots.

Simple: want to practice beyond the scope of the mahavihara tradition, then do so without trying to say Theravada was meant to be something else.
IMO, it's mostly a case of McMendicants who don't feel the need to learn the Dharma because they "feel it inside" or have personally decided that they've "tasted the fancy business" and have no time for real Buddhadharma. As usual, there's no solution aside from demonstrating the folly of the fools and then leaving them to their business. A true McMendicant doesn't spurn the Dharma because they're open-minded, humble, and discerning. They spurn it because it makes no sense to them and they prefer their simplified pop Dharma that they get intuitively without the need for complicated and humbling reflection and examination. The taste of the nectar is self-effacing and humbling. A McMendicant doesn't want to be humble. They want to go tell it on the mountain, over the hills, and everywhere. High places for high folk. Important news from important people. And so it goes.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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SDC
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Re: What You Might Not Know about Jhāna & Samādhi by Kumāra Bhikkhu

Post by SDC »

Coëmgenu wrote: Tue Jan 10, 2023 4:49 pm IMO, it's mostly a case of McMendicants who don't feel the need to learn the Dharma because they "feel it inside" or have personally decided that they've "tasted the fancy business" and have no time for real Buddhadharma. As usual, there's no solution aside from demonstrating the folly of the fools and then leaving them to their business. A true McMendicant doesn't spurn the Dharma because they're open-minded, humble, and discerning. They spurn it because it makes no sense to them and they prefer their simplified pop Dharma that they get intuitively without the need for complicated and humbling reflection and examination. The taste of the nectar is self-effacing and humbling. A McMendicant doesn't want to be humble. They want to go tell it on the mountain, over the hills, and everywhere. High places for high folk. Important news from important people. And so it goes.
I see it as that need to affiliate that I’m always going on about, and this notion that “my side” leading in the popularity contest is somehow a victory in Dhamma. I think we all go through a period of being enamored with our chosen information, but to relish in it and call that practice is clearly a mistake. Couple that with a lack of historical information and you have threads like this one.
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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Coëmgenu
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Re: What You Might Not Know about Jhāna & Samādhi by Kumāra Bhikkhu

Post by Coëmgenu »

I suppose there's little functional difference between a McMendicant "just feeling Theravāda on the inside," one claiming to have tasted the "true Theravāda," and using affiliation to buttress one's untenable claims.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
Jack19990101
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Re: What You Might Not Know about Jhāna & Samādhi by Kumāra Bhikkhu

Post by Jack19990101 »

Many got stuck on confusion between nose tip or upper lip, stuck on a candle flame and wrote posts for help.

Although one would think being stuck is all very reasonable situation on this tough journey, each of us will face such situation, yet one still can't help wondering if all such situation is necessary.
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Virgo
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Re: What You Might Not Know about Jhāna & Samādhi by Kumāra Bhikkhu

Post by Virgo »

SDC wrote: Tue Jan 10, 2023 6:06 pm
Coëmgenu wrote: Tue Jan 10, 2023 4:49 pm IMO, it's mostly a case of McMendicants who don't feel the need to learn the Dharma because they "feel it inside" or have personally decided that they've "tasted the fancy business" and have no time for real Buddhadharma. As usual, there's no solution aside from demonstrating the folly of the fools and then leaving them to their business. A true McMendicant doesn't spurn the Dharma because they're open-minded, humble, and discerning. They spurn it because it makes no sense to them and they prefer their simplified pop Dharma that they get intuitively without the need for complicated and humbling reflection and examination. The taste of the nectar is self-effacing and humbling. A McMendicant doesn't want to be humble. They want to go tell it on the mountain, over the hills, and everywhere. High places for high folk. Important news from important people. And so it goes.
I see it as that need to affiliate that I’m always going on about, and this notion that “my side” leading in the popularity contest is somehow a victory in Dhamma. I think we all go through a period of being enamored with our chosen information, but to relish in it and call that practice is clearly a mistake. Couple that with a lack of historical information and you have threads like this one.
I think you are both correct and have both perceptively and accurately pointed out real phenomena. :anjali:

Virgo
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Re: What You Might Not Know about Jhāna & Samādhi by Kumāra Bhikkhu

Post by mikenz66 »

SDC wrote: Tue Jan 10, 2023 6:06 pm I see it as that need to affiliate that I’m always going on about, and this notion that “my side” leading in the popularity contest is somehow a victory in Dhamma. I think we all go through a period of being enamored with our chosen information, but to relish in it and call that practice is clearly a mistake. Couple that with a lack of historical information and you have threads like this one.
It's also ironic that the "EBT" people posting here who dislike the Visuddhimagga and other Theravada texts are just as upset about the interpretations of other "EBT" people (such as Bhikkhu Sujato).

This seems to be the nature of discourse on a free-for-all internet forum like this - it's so more polarized than good-faith discussions in real life, and there is little scope for real dialog and learning.

:heart:
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Re: What You Might Not Know about Jhāna & Samādhi by Kumāra Bhikkhu

Post by mikenz66 »

Here is some useful discussion of the disagreements over Jhāna by Bhikkhu Dhammananado:
Dhammanando wrote: Wed May 13, 2020 11:23 am
nirodh27 wrote: Wed May 13, 2020 9:26 amWhat strikes me the most is that it seems to me that no sides acknowledges that both interpretations are actually possibile and have their strenghts and that the matter, and this is very unfortunate because I think everyone wants to know exactly how to practice in the way the Buddha prescribed 2500 years ago, cannot be decided only by sutta references.
As the disagreement doesn't involve any difference of opinion over how the preliminary practice of samatha-bhāvanā is to be carried out, one always has the option of just going ahead with the work while maintaining an agnostic stance on the contested questions about what jhāna is like.
nirodh27 wrote: Wed May 13, 2020 9:26 amIt would be very interesting to read the Sylvester - Frankk debate, I hope that someone can link that.
Here are links to a few of the threads. I'm afraid some are rather lengthy, but you can save time by skipping all the ill-informed posts from the Vimalaramsi and Brasington followers and just attending to the posts of Sylvester, Sujāto and Brahmali (in effect representing the Theravada position as it was at the time of the Third Council), and those of Frank and Silence (in effect representing the position taken at the same council by the Pubbaseliya school).

As at the Third Council, both sides believe their position to be the correct reading of the suttas and neither side is basing its case on later works like the Visuddhimagga. Unfortunately one of the two Pubbaseliya posters (yes, I mean you, Frank!) insists on begging the question by calling his own view "the straight EBT interpretation", and poisoning the well (and begging the question) by dubbing his opponents' view "the revised Visuddhimagga interpretation".

Hearing sounds in jhāna

Vitakka and vicāra (jhāna factors)

Pīti, sukha, kāya in jhāna: mental, physical, or both?

Can you hear sound and feel body in jhāna?

EBTs which indicate the experience of the body disappears while meditating?

‘parisuddhena cetasā pariyodātena’ and ‘citte parisuddhe pariyodāte’

And if your enthusiasm hasn't waned after the above, you'll probably find a few more with google:

google search
Joe.c
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Re: What You Might Not Know about Jhāna & Samādhi by Kumāra Bhikkhu

Post by Joe.c »

Coëmgenu wrote: Tue Jan 10, 2023 3:45 pm No, I didn't personally make this up. Yes, I know this to be true based on more than speculation.

Whether the Buddha taught what is in the Visuddhimagga or didn't teach what is in the Visuddhimagga is irrelevant with regards to this fact.

Try to be more relevant with your next round of prapañca.
Good luck. Like I said you are just repeating what you heard and learned blindly from others. There is no fact behind your statement.

Like I said you don't know the TRUTH.

When one can't explain, it is just easily say it is my papanca. In fact you don't know, as I pointed out. But you don't want to admit it.
May you be relax, happy, comfortable and free of dukkhas from hearing true dhamma.
May you gain unshakable confidence in Buddha, Dhamma and (Ariya) Sangha.
Learn about Buddha/Dhamma Characters.
Joe.c
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Re: What You Might Not Know about Jhāna & Samādhi by Kumāra Bhikkhu

Post by Joe.c »

Virgo wrote: Tue Jan 10, 2023 4:06 pm ...
good luck.
May you be relax, happy, comfortable and free of dukkhas from hearing true dhamma.
May you gain unshakable confidence in Buddha, Dhamma and (Ariya) Sangha.
Learn about Buddha/Dhamma Characters.
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Re: What You Might Not Know about Jhāna & Samādhi by Kumāra Bhikkhu

Post by Ceisiwr »

Joe.c wrote: Tue Jan 10, 2023 9:12 pm
Coëmgenu wrote: Tue Jan 10, 2023 3:45 pm No, I didn't personally make this up. Yes, I know this to be true based on more than speculation.

Whether the Buddha taught what is in the Visuddhimagga or didn't teach what is in the Visuddhimagga is irrelevant with regards to this fact.

Try to be more relevant with your next round of prapañca.
Good luck. Like I said you are just repeating what you heard and learned blindly from others. There is no fact behind your statement.

Like I said you don't know the TRUTH.

When one can't explain, it is just easily say it is my papanca. In fact you don't know, as I pointed out. But you don't want to admit it.
It’s a historical fact that the Abhidhamma and the commentaries predate the Venerable Buddhaghosa, and so it’s a historical fact that traditional Theravada predates Venerable Buddhaghosa and the Visuddhimagga. The Visuddhimagga is based on traditional Theravada. It didn’t create it. This is as factual as saying that the Buddha and Buddhism predates Jesus and Christianity.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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