viññāṇa as divided knowing

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Vivekananda
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Re: viññāṇa as divided knowing

Post by Vivekananda »

I first started to question the translation of viññāna after coming across the theories, of the user Lal, so there is even merit in that... :thanks:

Later in all this online papañca i came across this page and first was quite sceptical. What to do?! Yet another heretic from the island...Nevertheless i got hooked on the biography of Bhante Ñānavimala and then for the sake of curiosity downloaded "The heretic Sage".

In that book on page 6 we read
It is commonly known that the root ñā stands for ‘knowledge’. Why is it said‘vijānāti’ when it could have easily been said ‘jānāti’? Most translations just use ‘knows’. But vijānāti means ‘discriminatively knows’. What is the main job of viññāṇa? We can clarify from the Mahāvedalla Sutta. There we get the phrases yaṃ sañjānāti taṃ vijānāti and yaṃ vijānāti taṃ pajānāti. ‘What one perceives, that one discriminates’ and ‘what one discriminates, that one knows’.
which did ring a bell, and delighted me. Now I had to look up this thread, where [luckily] no strong opposition is held against this translation, maybe I am able to participate with something more.

In the Thai forest tradition, the masters [in whom i have faith] speak of pure knowing [after the fourth Jhāna ].

In my understanding that fits pretty well, since defiled knowing/"papañca knowing"/expanded knowind/ayoniso manasikāra stops after awakening, what remains is this pure consciousness.

Best wishes from the forest.
Abroisa, alchemical gold, the true philosopher's stone!
ssasny
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Re: viññāṇa as divided knowing

Post by ssasny »

One of the main senses of the Pali prefix "vi" is as an intensifier. (for instance 'vipassana', 'special seeing')

We can see this described at length in the PED.

II. Meanings. -- 1. denoting expansion, spreading out; fig. variety or detail, to be trsld by expressions with over or about (cp. Lat. e-), as: ˚kampati shake about, ˚kāseti open out, ˚kirati scatter about, ˚kūjati sing out (=upa -- nadati C), ˚carati move about (=ā-hiṇḍati), ˚churita sprinkled about, ˚jāyati bring forth, ˚tāna "spread out," ˚tthāra ex-tension, de-tail, ˚dāleti break open, ˚dhammati whirl about, ˚dhāyaka providing, ˚pakirati strew all over, ˚pphāra pervading, ˚pphārika ef-fulgence, ˚bhajati ex-plain, ˚bhatta dis-tributed, ˚bhāga division, distribution, ˚ravati shout out, ˚rūhana growing up, ˚rocati shine out, ˚ssajjati give out, ˚ssaṭṭha sent out, ˚ssara shouting out, ˚ssuta far-famed


Perhaps this is why Ven. Ñānananda translates vijānāti as 'discriminates'. An enhanced kind of 'knowing'.

The prefix, 'pa', which seems to have primarily a directional sense, is also an intensifier.
As it has been pointed out here before though, Pali words are often more than the sum of their parts.
PeterC86
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Re: viññāṇa as divided knowing

Post by PeterC86 »

Yes, that is why in MN1 it is explained that puthujjanas 'perceive', and the trainees and liberated ones 'directly know'. The Bahiya sutta explains the right practice.

But people have immense trouble letting go of their assumed knowledge gained through discrimination, because they are in the knowing. Meaning that in this discriminative/divided knowledge lies their self-view; "I have knowledge".


Of course, there are also the 'DO is physical' teachers, who overlook that anything written down can only be about cognition, as anything discerned is discerned through cognition. So whatever birth is written about, it can only be birth through cognition, but I have written more than enough about that.. And that rebirth is incompatible with sabbe dhamma anatta, but who is listening really.. all I see is puthujjanas spreading their papanca in order to self-justify their beliefs. It is a cluster of wrong views. Conceit all around.
ssasny
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Re: viññāṇa as divided knowing

Post by ssasny »

could you give the Pali of what you are quoting?
It will help me understand your post better.
Thanks
PeterC86
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Re: viññāṇa as divided knowing

Post by PeterC86 »

I wasn't quoting a sutta. My post was also a post concerning the topic, not really a reply to your post.
Last edited by PeterC86 on Mon Feb 06, 2023 5:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Coëmgenu
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Re: viññāṇa as divided knowing

Post by Coëmgenu »

A convenient proof that "vi-" isn't systematically read as "divided" or "division" is the term vimokṣa (or we can use "vimukti") which appears as vimokkha (or we can use "vimutti") in Pāli.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
ssasny
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Re: viññāṇa as divided knowing

Post by ssasny »

Perhaps these are the kinds of things that were passingly referred to in the Mūlapariyāya Sutta, MN 1.

Diṭṭhaṁ diṭṭhato sañjānāti
Sutaṁ sutato sañjānāti
Mutaṁ mutato sañjānāti
Viññātaṁ viññātato sañjānāti

Yopi so, bhikkhave, bhikkhu sekkho appattamānaso anuttaraṁ yogakkhemaṁ patthayamāno viharati, sopi pathaviṁ pathavito abhijānāti....

Yopi so, bhikkhave, bhikkhu arahaṁ khīṇāsavo vusitavā katakaraṇīyo ohitabhāro anuppattasadattho pari­k­khīṇa­bha­vasa­ṁ­yojano sammadaññāvimutto, sopi pathaviṁ pathavito abhijānāti...

Perhaps interestingly, the verb vijāñāti does not seem to be used in this sutta.
ssasny
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Re: viññāṇa as divided knowing

Post by ssasny »

Yes, the work 'vimokkha' can be understood as vi + √muc, "full emancipation, liberation", with the 'vi' in the sense quoted above.
PeterC86
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Re: viññāṇa as divided knowing

Post by PeterC86 »

ssasny wrote: Mon Feb 06, 2023 5:50 pm Perhaps these are the kinds of things that were passingly referred to in the Mūlapariyāya Sutta, MN 1.

Diṭṭhaṁ diṭṭhato sañjānāti
Sutaṁ sutato sañjānāti
Mutaṁ mutato sañjānāti
Viññātaṁ viññātato sañjānāti

Yopi so, bhikkhave, bhikkhu sekkho appattamānaso anuttaraṁ yogakkhemaṁ patthayamāno viharati, sopi pathaviṁ pathavito abhijānāti....

Yopi so, bhikkhave, bhikkhu arahaṁ khīṇāsavo vusitavā katakaraṇīyo ohitabhāro anuppattasadattho pari­k­khīṇa­bha­vasa­ṁ­yojano sammadaññāvimutto, sopi pathaviṁ pathavito abhijānāti...

Perhaps interestingly, the verb vijāñāti does not seem to be used in this sutta.
Hello ssasny,

The interesting thing to take from MN1 is that, in the case of the puthujjana;

“He perceives the cognized as the cognized. Having perceived the cognized as the cognized, he conceives himself as the cognized, he conceives himself in the cognized, he conceives himself apart from the cognized, he conceives the cognized to be ‘mine,’ he delights in the cognized. Why is that? Because he has not fully understood it, I say.

Warm regards,
Peter

P.s.; My words are not to delight. :lol:
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Ceisiwr
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Re: viññāṇa as divided knowing

Post by Ceisiwr »

PeterC86 wrote: Mon Feb 06, 2023 4:57 pm Of course, there are also the 'DO is physical' teachers,
Since dependent origination, in terms of the 12-link formula, contains both physical and mental dhammas no one claims it is "physical".
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
PeterC86
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Re: viññāṇa as divided knowing

Post by PeterC86 »

Ceisiwr wrote: Mon Feb 06, 2023 6:30 pm
PeterC86 wrote: Mon Feb 06, 2023 4:57 pm Of course, there are also the 'DO is physical' teachers,
Since dependent origination, in terms of the 12-link formula, contains both physical and mental dhammas no one claims it is "physical".
It is very simple Ceisiwr. Ask yourself the question; do I have knowledge?


If the answer is yes, you have confirmed your self-view.
PeterC86
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Re: viññāṇa as divided knowing

Post by PeterC86 »

The difficult part is getting rid of that 'knowledge'. :sage:
Pulsar
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Re: viññāṇa as divided knowing

Post by Pulsar »

Ceisiwr wrote
In some cases, viññāṇa is clearly a synonym of paññā, ‘wisdom’ (e.g. Sutta Nipāta 92-3).
http://www.ahandfulofleaves.org/documen ... o_2011.pdf
The link does not work for me. Do you know which verse of Sutta Nipata, Sujato is referring to? Verse 92 of Sutta nipata is found under Parabhava sutta, and it does not refer to Panna. It refers to causes of downfall. Is the verses number a typo?
Vinnana as a synonym of Panna???? And V. Sujato does not subscribe to Vibajjavadin Abhidhamma, right? Are you able to locate the verse in Sutta Nipata, where Vinnana is expressed as "clearly a synonym of Panna"?
Regards :candle:
PeterC86
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Re: viññāṇa as divided knowing

Post by PeterC86 »

Ask yourself; can I have knowledge?



Yes is self-View

No is nibbana
Last edited by PeterC86 on Mon Feb 06, 2023 8:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: viññāṇa as divided knowing

Post by Ceisiwr »

Pulsar wrote: Mon Feb 06, 2023 7:10 pm Ceisiwr wrote
In some cases, viññāṇa is clearly a synonym of paññā, ‘wisdom’ (e.g. Sutta Nipāta 92-3).
http://www.ahandfulofleaves.org/documen ... o_2011.pdf
The link does not work for me. Do you know which verse of Sutta Nipata, Sujato is referring to? Verse 92 of Sutta nipata is found under Parabhava sutta, and it does not refer to Panna. It refers to causes of downfall. Is the verses number a typo?
Vinnana as a synonym of Panna???? And V. Sujato does not subscribe to Vibajjavadin Abhidhamma, right? Are you able to locate the verse in Sutta Nipata, where Vinnana is expressed as "clearly a synonym of Panna"?
Regards :candle:
Yes, you are right. It isn't in that section of the Snp. Sadly the link no longer works for me either.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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