🟧 "...while staying at the root of a tree...", MN 19 (Week of December 5, 2021)

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🟧 "...while staying at the root of a tree...", MN 19 (Week of December 5, 2021)

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:reading:


MN 19 is a sutta that completely changed the way I understood the development of knowledge, and although it is made abundantly clear elsewhere that undertakings such as virtue and restraint are crucial in the development of the noble eightfold path, the concise approach described in this sutta brings it all together - made even more clear by way of the fabulous simile of the cowherd. According to Ven. Bodhi's notes, this division of thought was used during the rough struggles prior to his enlightenment, however it should be noted that to whatever degree it fell short when he was still unenlightened, the following account describes how it does culminate in liberation.

Unlike other study sessions, and because this is a sutta I've been very interested in for a number of years, most of the afterthought post is packed with food for thought rather than questions. This is not done with the intent to explain what this sutta is saying, but with the hope that my thoughts be taken as prompts that could perhaps draw out a clearer meaning, even if it is contrary to the one I've offered.

Enjoy. :smile:
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📍 "...while staying at the root of a tree...", MN 19 (Week of December 5, 2021)

Post by SDC »

:reading:


Majjhima Nikāya
Dvedhāvitakkasutta (Two Kinds of Thought) MN 19 (PTS 1.115–1.118)
Translated by Bhikkhu Bodhi


  • Thus have I heard. On one occasion the Blessed One was living at Sāvatthī in Jeta’s Grove, Anāthapiṇḍika’s Park. There he addressed the bhikkhus thus: “Bhikkhus.”—“Venerable sir,” they replied. The Blessed One said this:

    “Bhikkhus, before my enlightenment, while I was still only an unenlightened Bodhisatta, it occurred to me: ‘Suppose that I divide my thoughts into two classes. Then I set on one side thoughts of sensual desire, thoughts of ill will, and thoughts of cruelty, and I set on the other side thoughts of renunciation, thoughts of non-ill will, and thoughts of non-cruelty.

    “As I abided thus, diligent, ardent, and resolute, a thought of sensual desire arose in me. I understood thus: ‘This thought of sensual desire has arisen in me. This leads to my own affliction, to others’ affliction, and to the affliction of both; it obstructs wisdom, causes difficulties, and leads away from Nibbāna.’ When I considered: ‘This leads to my own affliction,’ it subsided in me; when I considered: ‘This leads to others’ affliction,’ it subsided in me; when I considered: ‘This leads to the affliction of both,’ it subsided in me; when I considered: ‘This obstructs wisdom, causes difficulties, and leads away from Nibbāna,’ it subsided in me. Whenever a thought of sensual desire arose in me, I abandoned it, removed it, did away with it.

    “As I abided thus, diligent, ardent, and resolute, a thought of ill will arose in me…a thought of cruelty arose in me. I understood thus: ‘This thought of cruelty has arisen in me. This leads to my own affliction, to others’ affliction, and to the affliction of both; it obstructs wisdom, causes difficulties, and leads away from Nibbāna.‘ When I considered thus…it subsided in me. Whenever a thought of cruelty arose in me, I abandoned it, removed it, did away with it.

    “Bhikkhus, whatever a bhikkhu frequently thinks and ponders upon, that will become the inclination of his mind. If he frequently thinks and ponders upon thoughts of sensual desire, he has abandoned the thought of renunciation to cultivate the thought of sensual desire, and then his mind inclines to thoughts of sensual desire. If he frequently thinks and ponders upon thoughts of ill will…upon thoughts of cruelty, he has abandoned the thought of non-cruelty to cultivate the thought of cruelty, and then his mind inclines to thoughts of cruelty.

    “Just as in the last month of the rainy season, in the autumn, when the crops thicken, a cowherd would guard his cows by constantly tapping and poking them on this side and that with a stick to check and curb them. Why is that? Because he sees that he could be flogged, imprisoned, fined, or blamed if he let them stray into the crops. So too I saw in unwholesome states danger, degradation, and defilement, and in wholesome states the blessing of renunciation, the aspect of cleansing.

    “As I abided thus, diligent, ardent, and resolute, a thought of renunciation arose in me. I understood thus: ‘This thought of renunciation has arisen in me. This does not lead to my own affliction, or to others’ affliction, or to the affliction of both; it aids wisdom, does not cause difficulties, and leads to Nibbāna. If I think and ponder upon this thought even for a night, even for a day, even for a night and day, I see nothing to fear from it. But with excessive thinking and pondering I might tire my body, and when the body is tired, the mind becomes strained, and when the mind is strained, it is far from concentration.’ So I steadied my mind internally, quieted it, brought it to singleness, and concentrated it. Why is that? So that my mind should not be strained.

    “As I abided thus, diligent, ardent, and resolute, a thought of non-ill will arose in me…a thought of non-cruelty arose in me. I understood thus: ‘This thought of non-cruelty has arisen in me. This does not lead to my own affliction, or to others’ affliction, or to the affliction of both; it aids wisdom, does not cause difficulties, and leads to Nibbāna. If I think and ponder upon this thought even for a night, even for a day, even for a night and day, I see nothing to fear from it. But with excessive thinking and pondering I might tire my body, and when the body is tired, the mind becomes strained, and when the mind is strained, it is far from concentration.’ So I steadied my mind internally, quieted it, brought it to singleness, and concentrated it. Why is that? So that my mind should not be strained.

    “Bhikkhus, whatever a bhikkhu frequently thinks and ponders upon, that will become the inclination of his mind. If he frequently thinks and ponders upon thoughts of renunciation, he has abandoned the thought of sensual desire to cultivate the thought of renunciation, and then his mind inclines to thoughts of renunciation. If he frequently thinks and ponders upon thoughts of non-ill will…upon thoughts of non-cruelty, he has abandoned the thought of cruelty to cultivate the thought of non-cruelty, and then his mind inclines to thoughts of non-cruelty.

    “Just as in the last month of the hot season, when all the crops have been brought inside the villages, a cowherd would guard his cows while staying at the root of a tree or out in the open, since he needs only to be mindful that the cows are there; so too, there was need for me only to be mindful that those states were there.

    “Tireless energy was aroused in me and unremitting mindfulness was established, my body was tranquil and untroubled, my mind concentrated and unified.

    “Quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unwholesome states, I entered upon and abided in the first jhāna, which is accompanied by applied and sustained thought, with rapture and pleasure born of seclusion.

    “With the stilling of applied and sustained thought, I entered upon and abided in the second jhāna, which has self-confidence and singleness of mind without applied and sustained thought, with rapture and pleasure born of concentration.

    “With the fading away as well of rapture, I abided in equanimity, and mindful and fully aware, still feeling pleasure with the body, I entered upon and abided in the third jhāna, on account of which noble ones announce: ‘He has a pleasant abiding who has equanimity and is mindful.’

    “With the abandoning of pleasure and pain, and with the previous disappearance of joy and grief, I entered upon and abided in the fourth jhāna, which has neither-pain-nor-pleasure and purity of mindfulness due to equanimity.

    “When my concentrated mind was thus purified, bright, unblemished, rid of imperfection, malleable, wieldy, steady, and attained to imperturbability, I directed it to knowledge of the recollection of past lives. I recollected my manifold past lives, that is, one birth, two births, three births, four births, five births, ten births, twenty births, thirty births, forty births, fifty births, a hundred births, a thousand births, a hundred thousand births, many aeons of world-contraction, many aeons of world-expansion, many aeons of world-contraction and expansion: ‘There I was so named, of such a clan, with such an appearance, such was my nutriment, such my experience of pleasure and pain, such my life-term; and passing away from there, I reappeared elsewhere; and there too I was so named, of such a clan, with such an appearance, such was my nutriment, such my experience of pleasure and pain, such my life-term; and passing away from there, I reappeared here.’ Thus with their aspects and particulars I recollected my manifold past lives.

    “This was the first true knowledge attained by me in the first watch of the night. Ignorance was banished and true knowledge arose, darkness was banished and light arose, as happens in one who abides diligent, ardent, and resolute.

    “When my concentrated mind was thus purified, bright, unblemished, rid of imperfection, malleable, wieldy, steady, and attained to imperturbability, I directed it to knowledge of the passing away and reappearance of beings. With the divine eye, which is purified and surpasses the human, I saw beings passing away and reappearing, inferior and superior, fair and ugly, fortunate and unfortunate. I understood how beings pass on according to their actions thus: ‘These worthy beings who were ill conducted in body, speech, and mind, revilers of noble ones, wrong in their views, giving effect to wrong view in their actions, on the dissolution of the body, after death, have reappeared in a state of deprivation, in a bad destination, in perdition, even in hell; but these worthy beings who were well conducted in body, speech, and mind, not revilers of noble ones, right in their views, giving effect to right view in their actions, on the dissolution of the body, after death, have reappeared in a good destination, even in the heavenly world.’ Thus with the divine eye, which is purified and surpasses the human, I saw beings passing away and reappearing, inferior and superior, fair and ugly, fortunate and unfortunate, and I understood how beings pass on according to their actions.

    “This was the second true knowledge attained by me in the middle watch of the night. Ignorance was banished and true knowledge arose, darkness was banished and light arose, as happens in one who abides diligent, ardent, and resolute.

    “When my concentrated mind was thus purified, bright, unblemished, rid of imperfection, malleable, wieldy, steady, and attained to imperturbability, I directed it to knowledge of the destruction of the taints. I directly knew as it actually is: ‘This is suffering’; I directly knew as it actually is: ‘This is the origin of suffering’; I directly knew as it actually is: ‘This is the cessation of suffering’; I directly knew as it actually is: ‘This is the way leading to the cessation of suffering.’ I directly knew as it actually is: ‘These are the taints’; I directly knew as it actually is: ‘This is the origin of the taints’; I directly knew as it actually is: ‘This is the cessation of the taints’; I directly knew as it actually is: ‘This is the way leading to the cessation of the taints.’

    “When I knew and saw thus, my mind was liberated from the taint of sensual desire, from the taint of being, and from the taint of ignorance. When it was liberated, there came the knowledge: ‘It is liberated.’ I directly knew: ‘Birth is destroyed, the holy life has been lived, what had to be done has been done, there is no more coming to any state of being.’

    “This was the third true knowledge attained by me in the last watch of the night. Ignorance was banished and true knowledge arose, darkness was banished and light arose, as happens in one who abides diligent, ardent, and resolute.

    “Suppose, bhikkhus, that in a wooded range there was a great low-lying marsh near which a large herd of deer lived. Then a man appeared desiring their ruin, harm, and bondage, and he closed off the safe and good path to be traveled joyfully, and he opened up a false path, and he put out a decoy and set up a dummy so that the large herd of deer might later come upon calamity, disaster, and loss. But another man came desiring their good, welfare, and protection, and he reopened the safe and good path that led to their happiness, and he closed off the false path, and he removed the decoy and destroyed the dummy, so that the large herd of deer might later come to growth, increase, and fulfilment.

    “Bhikkhus, I have given this simile in order to convey a meaning. This is the meaning: ‘The great low-lying marsh’ is a term for sensual pleasures. ‘The large herd of deer’ is a term for beings. ‘The man desiring their ruin, harm, and bondage’ is a term for Māra the Evil One. ‘The false path’ is a term for the wrong eightfold path, that is: wrong view, wrong intention, wrong speech, wrong action, wrong livelihood, wrong effort, wrong mindfulness, and wrong concentration. ‘The decoy’ is a term for delight and lust. ‘The dummy’ is a term for ignorance. ‘The man desiring their good, welfare, and protection’ is a term for the Tathāgata, accomplished and fully enlightened. ‘The safe and good path to be traveled joyfully’ is a term for the Noble Eightfold Path, that is: right view, right intention, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, and right concentration.

    “So, bhikkhus, the safe and good path to be traveled joyfully has been reopened by me, the wrong path has been closed off, the decoy removed, the dummy destroyed.

    “What should be done for his disciples out of compassion by a teacher who seeks their welfare and has compassion for them, that I have done for you, bhikkhus. There are these roots of trees, these empty huts. Meditate, bhikkhus, do not delay or else you will regret it later. This is our instruction to you.”

    That is what the Blessed One said. The bhikkhus were satisfied and delighted in the Blessed One’s words.
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📍 "...while staying at the root of a tree...", MN 19 (Week of December 5, 2021)

Post by SDC »

📚

Thoughts?

  • The direction of wholesome in itself is not harmful, but, "with excessive thinking and pondering I might tire my body, and when the body is tired, the mind becomes strained, and when the mind is strained, it is far from concentration." And looking back at the unwholesome direction, "it obstructs wisdom, causes difficulties, and leads away from Nibbāna." Point being: both directions have the potential to block development. The solution? "So I steadied my mind internally, quieted it, brought it to singleness, and concentrated it. Why is that? So that my mind should not be strained." This is where the cowherd simile can really shed some light.
  • Part one of the simile:
    “As I abided thus, diligent, ardent, and resolute, a thought of sensual desire arose in me...a thought of ill will arose in me…a thought of cruelty arose in me. I understood thus: ‘This thought of cruelty has arisen in me. This leads to my own affliction, to others’ affliction, and to the affliction of both; it obstructs wisdom, causes difficulties, and leads away from Nibbāna.‘ When I considered thus…it subsided in me. Whenever a thought of cruelty arose in me, I abandoned it, removed it, did away with it.

    “Bhikkhus, whatever a bhikkhu frequently thinks and ponders upon, that will become the inclination of his mind. If he frequently thinks and ponders upon thoughts of sensual desire, he has abandoned the thought of renunciation to cultivate the thought of sensual desire, and then his mind inclines to thoughts of sensual desire. If he frequently thinks and ponders upon thoughts of ill will…upon thoughts of cruelty, he has abandoned the thought of non-cruelty to cultivate the thought of cruelty, and then his mind inclines to thoughts of cruelty.

    “Just as in the last month of the rainy season, in the autumn, when the crops thicken, a cowherd would guard his cows by constantly tapping and poking them on this side and that with a stick to check and curb them. Why is that? Because he sees that he could be flogged, imprisoned, fined, or blamed if he let them stray into the crops. So too I saw in unwholesome states danger, degradation, and defilement, and in wholesome states the blessing of renunciation, the aspect of cleansing.
    When the crops were thick, i.e. when the experience was "thick" with unwholesome thoughts, he had to consider where those thoughts would lead. The consideration would result in the thought subsiding. The cowherd had to be diligent and stay among the cows to tap and poke them to keep them from moving towards the crops. So too, he saw the distinction between the two directions. In the direction of unwholesome he saw "danger, degradation and defilement", and in the direction of wholesome, "the aspect of cleansing".

    Part two:
    “As I abided thus, diligent, ardent, and resolute, a thought of renunciation arose in me...thought of non-ill will arose in me…a thought of non-cruelty arose in me. I understood thus: ‘This thought of non-cruelty has arisen in me. This does not lead to my own affliction, or to others’ affliction, or to the affliction of both; it aids wisdom, does not cause difficulties, and leads to Nibbāna. If I think and ponder upon this thought even for a night, even for a day, even for a night and day, I see nothing to fear from it. But with excessive thinking and pondering I might tire my body, and when the body is tired, the mind becomes strained, and when the mind is strained, it is far from concentration.’ So I steadied my mind internally, quieted it, brought it to singleness, and concentrated it. Why is that? So that my mind should not be strained.

    “Bhikkhus, whatever a bhikkhu frequently thinks and ponders upon, that will become the inclination of his mind. If he frequently thinks and ponders upon thoughts of renunciation, he has abandoned the thought of sensual desire to cultivate the thought of renunciation, and then his mind inclines to thoughts of renunciation. If he frequently thinks and ponders upon thoughts of non-ill will…upon thoughts of non-cruelty, he has abandoned the thought of cruelty to cultivate the thought of non-cruelty, and then his mind inclines to thoughts of non-cruelty.

    “Just as in the last month of the hot season, when all the crops have been brought inside the villages, a cowherd would guard his cows while staying at the root of a tree or out in the open, since he needs only to be mindful that the cows are there; so too, there was need for me only to be mindful that those states were there.
    What has changed here is frequency. An increase in the frequency of thinking and pondering upon wholesome thoughts equates to the abandonment of their unwholesome counterparts. Why? Those directions had to be abandoned in order to cultivate the wholesome ones; for the mind to incline to those thoughts. (Is this a reference to the two directions being mutually exclusive? I'm not sure. Renunciation is the counterpart of sensual desire, non-ill will of ill, and non-cruelty of cruelty. It seems that all six are always available but that the mind can only be inclined towards one end. The other is still there, but requires that effort to essentially go up the incline rather than easily down it, i.e. development.)

    For the cowherd, he can now relax...a little. Bearing in mind the "aspect of cleansing" and the quiet mind brought to singleness, it is now the hot season and the crops have been brought into the villages. He can now guard the cows from one place instead of staying among them as he did when the crops were thick. He can guard them "while staying" under the tree or out in the open, because all he has to do is remember they are there, and for Bodhisatta, "there was need for me only to be mindful that those states were there".

    So here in lies what I find to be very profound and relates to some of what was discuss last week with AN 11.9, samādhinimitta and those descriptions of discerning a broader context rather than specific objects. Here we have a cowherd that previously had to tend to individual cows that were inclining towards thick crops - first thing the cowherd had to do was keep them curbed while the inclination was still not reversed, i.e. he had no control over the weather, nor over when the crops would be taken in. So too, the diligence on behalf of the Bodhisatta is what developed the reversal. Now the wholesome direction is readily available, but he need not obsess over it, he need on remember that those states of renunciation, non-ill will and non-cruelty are there. He need only be mindful that those wholesome states are there. And on account of that, "Tireless energy was aroused in me and unremitting mindfulness was established, my body was tranquil and untroubled, my mind concentrated and unified. "Quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from wholesome states, I entered upon and abided in the first jhāna..."

    Initially the unwholesome direction was frequently thought and pondered, and the work at that point was to reflect on what those thoughts lead to in order to get them to subside. Eventually this resulted in the unwholesome direction being abandoned at the expense of the unwholesome. Is this to be understood as something temporary? Delicately held by mere resolve? Does unwholesome come automatically flooding back? With no effort? It really does not seem so. The inclination would have to redeveloped back in the direction of unwholesome, wouldn't it? But why would anyone go through the hassle? I suppose in the case of Devadatta, who seems to have lost the wholesome direction upon the development of his betrayal, but again, he seems to have redeveloped the unwholesome in order to do. In other words, it doesn't seem possible that the unwholesome inclination would automatically come back.

    My overall point here is that the development of this direction has to take time and effort. This seems to be about the gain of knowledge, not simply the gain of an experience, and jhana is the result of developing a direction of wholesome that is not at any immediate risk of falling away as long as the inclination is maintained. Furthermore it is a direction that does not seem available in cases where that wholesome inclination hasn't been thoroughly established. It does not seem one can go from one direction to the other at will. One has to be abandoned on account of the other.
  • Does anyone else read this as a unique take on pretty much the entire path? Does the final simile give any assurances?

Looking forward to hearing from everyone. :smile:
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Re: 📍 "...while staying at the root of a tree...", MN 19 (Week of December 5, 2021)

Post by confusedlayman »

so renunciation is emptying the mind and keep it as space?
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
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Re: 📍 "...while staying at the root of a tree...", MN 19 (Week of December 5, 2021)

Post by Joe.c »

For me this is related to development of the N8FP especially, samma ditthi, samma sankappa, samma vayama, samma sati and finally the development of samma samadhi (unification of mind) to make the mind not stress due to too much thinkings.

You can check MN 117 great forty, especially the noble, undefiled, transcendent, a factor of the path.

SDC, i know you are familiar with Bhante Punnaji work. This MN 19 is related to citta (emotional/evil mind) and mano (cognitive/good mind).
May you be relax, happy, comfortable and free of dukkhas from hearing true dhamma.
May you gain unshakable confidence in Buddha, Dhamma and (Ariya) Sangha.
Learn about Buddha/Dhamma Characters.
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Re: 📍 "...while staying at the root of a tree...", MN 19 (Week of December 5, 2021)

Post by sunnat »

Whatever the particulars are, bodily feelings or mental feelings (thoughts), if one inclines correctly there will be progress.
So, this is about kamma and kamma resultants, sankharas.
There will be progress, (letting go of, bad, old sankharas), by letting go of them by not nurturing or inclining towards them when they arise, instead inclining towards good kammas. The bad sankharas will continue to arise depending on past kammas, so to avoid a step forward, a step backwards, the practice is to train to do this continuously. A time then comes (dependent on past kammas) when the scales tip, and because of the ardent past practice, one needs to merely maintains an awareness of the continual rise and fall (anicca) of the mental contents (or bodily feelings) (because of past practice); and thus the unfolding or awakening.
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Re: 📍 "...while staying at the root of a tree...", MN 19 (Week of December 5, 2021)

Post by nirodh27 »

SDC wrote: Sun Dec 05, 2021 4:41 am 📚
Hi SDC and everyone on the study group,

A brief introduction of my thoughts about a sutta that I think is the most important of all the canon, then a comment on your important points:

In my view, the Agamas helps to understand more what actually have to be done in what I think it is the most important and complete description on how to go from pre-jhana to second jhana. In my view, the missing first jhana in MA102 is not an error (and that pairs well to other places in the canon in which the skip is from pre-jhana to second jhana), but an hint that what we find in MA102 is actually the long description of a first jhanic state of mind, the only one that we have apart from the pericope as far as I know.

Here we have a reversal, a u-turn from sensuality to seclusion and in MA102 we have actually two steps depicted, the pre-jhanic work, in which the wholesome thoughts are developed (with effort) and the unwholesome abandoned and discarded and the reversal, the u-turn that is the point in which you are sure that the thoughts that will spontaneously arise will be wholesome. An untrained mind can be sure that what is automatically produced is sensual desires, thoughts, thoughts of "I am" etc. With very little to no effort.

At the same time MA102 and the second cowherd similes presents us a mind that is cleansed, that doesn't need a cane to be held in check because whatever Vitakka & vicara will produce will be spontaneously wholesome without effort. This is actually the first Jhana. It perfectly fits the pericope, there is clearly no evidence of any hindrance present there, we don't need the never-teached access-concentration, it is a huge and visible change, we can understand why there's so much in the suttas that yokes togheter vipassana and samatha, we don't need to absurdly redefine Vitakka&Vicara (that is the focus of also MA101/MA20), we can finally understand why second Jhana is called noble silence and I can go on forever.
My overall point here is that the development of this direction has to take time and effort. This seems to be about the gain of knowledge, not simply the gain of an experience, and jhana is the result of developing a direction of wholesome that is not at any immediate risk of falling away as long as the inclination is maintained. Furthermore it is a direction that does not seem available in cases where that wholesome inclination hasn't been thoroughly established. It does not seem one can go from one direction to the other at will. One has to be abandoned on account of the other.
Yes, the central thing is that jhana equals knowledge and development of wisdom, they are yoked togheter just like jhana is yoked to nibbana since it is said to be the pleasure of peace (the sage at peace, the muni) and the pleasure of liberation (MN66). Objects of meditation are alien to the EBT and what you can see in the sutta is a change of attitude and direction, so we're very far from a narrow technique of concentration, there's letting go, but the more important part is the cultivation and to assure yourself that the change of direction is stable and feeling it as joy (that is why the Jhana must be sincere and requires a lot of honesty in oneself, you really need to find non-delight pleasurable in your heart).

At the same time Jhanas are clearly depicted as temporary attainments that can be lost. Both in MN and MA we can see that even fourth jhana can be lost if we go back to frequent laypeople (so for me that I'm a layperson, the ability to experience the jhanic pleasure is always at danger and not always available). The similes depict the Jhanas as the ability to temporarily cover the unwholesome that is there, and this ability degradates in time. There's a contradiction or a problem here? I don't think so.

To me the crops are not there just like an attraction for the cows that are the thoughts (crops don't seem very apt to represent sensuality or the field of mara) or the punishment of non-controlling. I think that the crops and the harvest is what one needs to protect, they are the precious thing to secure in the simile. If you the cowherd protect the harvest (wisdom) from being destroyed, you protect also yourself by obtaining rest (jhanic peace). There's a big reward in protecting the crops (or in the agamas the fields being sowd). The harvest for me is the actual slow and natural improvement of wisdom that one have to protect by controlling the cows/thoughts with a cane/4sp. When the harvest is done, there's the u-turn in which you have three advantages:

- The harvest (the development of wisdom) will actually free the option of going to the uncoltivated fields for the thoughts/cows (in the agamas the cows were in an unwelcoming marshland with limited graze and space, another potent metaphor for the untrained mind).
- The fields are open, without limits and without risks. As Thanissaro teaches, those are qualities that are usually attributed to the Jhanas. This is a mind worth to develop to assure yourself that your thoughts will support your spiritual quest.
- The harvest will actually free the cowherd himself from a lot of effort, by removing the need to use the cane and giving him the only work to be mindful that no unwholesome thoughts invades the mind (when the u-turn is not strong and your jhana is not fully stable, MN20 is your friend, using the first method of substitution should be more than possible at this stage if sincerity is there and wisdom about sensual pleasures and conceit is actually reached, since Sati would be very fast in arising and you can't be in jhana without a lot and months/years of continuous harvesting) and that there's stability in his situation, in a stable first jhana all the vitakka&vicara would be spontaneous thinking about the relief of the cows being secure, a pleasurable thinking that strenghtens the u-turn and the memory -establishing of sati- of how actually good is seclusion from unwholesome teachings/directions/attitudes. When you have the sincere thought "How good is to have so few wishes!" and you rejoyce as that, that is first jhana. That is why jhanas are not "light" or "easy" at all.

So the cowherd pleasure and rest under a tree is the Jhanic pleasure for body and mind and the harvest is the wisdom that is allowed to develop thanks to the efforts with the cane (the four satipatthanas) and frees the good field for the thoughts. In second Jhana you will actually be so secure of your underlying intentions (there's a specific sutta that I can't find now that says that the switch from first jhana to second is hard and slow) that you can let the thoughts non-arise, but a metaphor about the cows going to the slaughterhouse (subsiding of vitakka&vikara) was not very Buddhist in the spirit :thinking:

Every time we do pre-jhana and first jhana we actually do the reasoning with effort and then naturally let the Dhamma to develop and we harvest the result of the session that are for the sit and for the long time without any real distinction. Yes, the u-turn is at danger and degradates and needs to be protected, but at the same time every harvest matters, it will make the degradation slower, every meditation easier, the jhanic pleasure more at reach in less time (aka sati will be fast in arising, assurance will be fast and probably a monk that can get fourth jhana will start directly in fourth jhana since there's no reason for him to prefer pleasure to equanimity, why he should feed a dependance when non-feeding is pleasurable), you will start to have spontaneous thoughts of renunciation in every posture and in every situation, you will sit and your body will calm in a second because of the earlier development, you will incline towards Nibbana: that is why the jhanas are the pleasure of peace, of calmness, of liberation.

When you say:
he had no control over the weather, nor over when the crops would be taken in.
I think it is important to note that, there's a sutta that says that "it is just natural", you don't have to force, if you understand the drawbacks, you will naturally go from first jhana to Nibbana without effort (if you're a monk) and without any particular skill in concentration.

For laypeople, I think being in the world will make you regress way more faster since it is a life that practically works agains your peace. Still, the harvest (and that is why is important to start early, because you never know what level of effort you will need in the future) will help you to recover faster your jhanic state when there's the opportunity and in time you will establish the memory that equanimity and the non-search of pleasure is always the best option because the peace is right there. Of course, retires are essential, you need tastes of what is beyond your actual state to long for it. At the same time, there's no need for being averse to it if the conditions are what they are, we are the owners of our previous actions and enduring is unavoidable. But there have to be no doubt that, if we speak only for our happiness, the monk opportunity of happiness is superior to laylife. We may forget because the world uses our still-present asavas to make us forget, but there have to be certainty about the fact that nondelight and no-feelings, that stability and peace are a happiness of a superior kind.

A difference that I see from the practice of BuddhaDhamma followers to the one proposed in MN19 is that the Buddha actually didn't dispelled ignorance at that time when he narrates his jhana, but we are so lucky that we can work about ignorance from the start thanks to the Dhamma, so even the happiness of not regarding body, feelings, consciousness, intentions are self or the renunciation of conceits, feelings of superiority is available to us and some of the results, some of the harvest is the non-arising of Dukkha in a myriad of situations. And that makes A LOT of difference in laylife and a true happiness that is about not to feel (and there are a lot of occasions in which a layperson can avoid the second dart of being "someone", keeping the need of being someone, of feelings of superiority/equality/inferiority to the minimum).
Does unwholesome come automatically flooding back? With no effort? It really does not seem so. The inclination would have to redeveloped back in the direction of unwholesome, wouldn't it? But why would anyone go through the hassle?
If that is your experience at least in small part, it means that you harvest is very good. When I'm thrown in the world and there's no stable restoring of the jhanic pleasure (aka: reflection and memory of the teachings and how good they are in every case) the underlying tendencies are still there, obviously in years of practice are changed, but still there and the easiest sensual pleasures due to very favourable conditions to obtain it are the most fearful enemy to the jhanic pleasure. What is a gift for the world is actually a hindrance for the meditator, the best conditions are for monks, but in many cases I actually spontaneously prefer not to feel a pleasure so that my mind can stay undisturbed and that is pure happiness, peaceful. There's a lot even for laypeople to harvest, even if monks are leagues away.
I suppose in the case of Devadatta, who seems to have lost the wholesome direction upon the development of his betrayal, but again, he seems to have redeveloped the unwholesome in order to do. In other words, it doesn't seem possible that the unwholesome inclination would automatically come back.
Speaking for monks that are very highly developed with a Jhana that is full of wisdom, If all the Devadatta thing is historical, given that he had the underlying tendency to ignorance still present, when he felt that he could so easily deprive the Buddha of his role as chief and by doing that putting him in a superiority position, he simply did, he didn't saw superiority conceit as a burden, an hassle, but as desiderable. In Italy we have the phrase "l'occasione fa l'uomo ladro". Something like "The opportunity makes the thief". Until the asavas are there, opportunities can make us thiefs anytime. It is said that a first jhana attainer can disparage others, so there's first jhana and first Jhana and wisdom is what makes the J uppercase. We are liable to fall back anytime, that is why we have to create also every external condition useful to avoid those falls and also be grateful that conditions are not too much for us before we are ready and that is still possible for some of us to correct our route in time before death. It is not always the case.
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Re: 📍 "...while staying at the root of a tree...", MN 19 (Week of December 5, 2021)

Post by Sam Vara »

Many thanks SDC for an excellent choice. Like many people, I have often encountered and thought about this sutta. Here are some fairly random thoughts...

1) The Buddha says that he was able to conceive of these two classes of thoughts, and act upon that bifurcation, when he was a Bodhisatta, before his enlightenment. So that knowledge about thoughts - what they are, and where they lead to - was not part of the "three knowledges", and was accessible prior to his enlightenment. Possibly this is found in other traditions (I recall that the Jains had something similar, but can't remember where this is...) or maybe it is, in this format, something that the Buddha was trying out for himself. Either way, there's nothing later in the sutta which points to a "factor X" which was necessary for enlightenment. Just the 4 rupa jhanas, and the mind then being directed to the recollection, etc. the application of the two kinds of thinking seems to be a precondition for the accessing of jhanas, and indeed the passive voice
Tireless energy was aroused in me and unremitting mindfulness was established, my body was tranquil and untroubled, my mind concentrated and unified
implies that these qualities of energy, mindfulness, concentration, and unity were not attained by an additional act of will; they just seem to be a natural result of the foregoing exercise of thought. So what more does one need to become enlightened, given that the jhanas were known about, and the two kinds of thinking predate enlightenment?

2) I find renunciation interesting here. All the different translators use that term for nekkhamma, although they vary when translating the other qualities. Kāma is "sensual desire", "sense pleasures", "sensual thoughts", "sensuality", and "(thinking imbued with) sensuality" for BB, Horner, Sujāto, Suddhāso, and Thanissaro, respectively. But despite their agreement on this, it's difficult to see what renunciation actually means in this context. Clearly, "good will" or "non-malevolence" or "non-ill will" are counterparts to "ill will" in a different way that "renunciation" is a counterpart to sensuality. It's not the opposite, but a giving up. Would a "thought of renunciation" be something like "I like ice-cream, but I'm not going to open the fridge to get any" - i.e. would it be a sensual thought and a further thought about one's desire? Or would it be any thought that one does not desire (i.e. a neutral or unwanted thought) as when a random thought pops up and excites no desire? "I've just thought about ice-cream, but I've never liked it, so that's OK...". A renunciative thought, or a thought of something renounced? Or of something which has no need of being renounced?

3) Finally, the Buddha seems unwilling to say that the (harmless) thinking of renunciation, non-ill will, and non-cruelty are tiring for the mind. The process has to be related to the body - such thinking tires the body. And the tiredness of the body then stresses the mind. And a stressed mind can't get concentrated. Two different verbs here: kilamati (physically tires, as we see in other suttas) and ūhanati (disturbs, strains, afflicts, strikes, etc.). Today, in the West, we would tend to say that the thinking would tire the mind, or would just stress or perturb the mind. Interesting that the Buddha has to route this process through the physical body. Although, it occurs to me, there might be some who would take kāya here to mean something like "the body of mental factors"! :D

In any case, kāye kilante cittaṁ ūhaññeyya, so I'll have a cup of tea and a rest now.
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Re: 📍 "...while staying at the root of a tree...", MN 19 (Week of December 5, 2021)

Post by nirodh27 »

Sam Vara wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 8:18 pm
2) I find renunciation interesting here. All the different translators use that term for nekkhamma, although they vary when translating the other qualities. Kāma is "sensual desire", "sense pleasures", "sensual thoughts", "sensuality", and "(thinking imbued with) sensuality" for BB, Horner, Sujāto, Suddhāso, and Thanissaro, respectively. But despite their agreement on this, it's difficult to see what renunciation actually means in this context. Clearly, "good will" or "non-malevolence" or "non-ill will" are counterparts to "ill will" in a different way that "renunciation" is a counterpart to sensuality. It's not the opposite, but a giving up. Would a "thought of renunciation" be something like "I like ice-cream, but I'm not going to open the fridge to get any" - i.e. would it be a sensual thought and a further thought about one's desire? Or would it be any thought that one does not desire (i.e. a neutral or unwanted thought) as when a random thought pops up and excites no desire? "I've just thought about ice-cream, but I've never liked it, so that's OK...". A renunciative thought, or a thought of something renounced? Or of something which has no need of being renounced?
Hi Sam Vara,

(sorry, I've written this very fast)

I think that is the opposite too. The pleasure of knowing of being in the opposite direction of sensuality. It takes a lot of time to make the shift, that is why is a spontaneous u-turn given by careful and prolonged reasoning on the Dhamma.

I don't have access to my notes, but I think that Frankk posted many examples of themes of reflection from the AN somewhere that are apt to for cultivation of renunciation. One theme that I'm sure it is there is the fewerness of wishes. It is actually good to have few wishes? What kind of results it brings in the mind? Agitation or peace? What are the long-term results of a mind that have a lot of wishes, is that a reliable way for happiness? Is that for your welfare and happiness? What about the fewerness of wishes? What can it bring if cultivated?

Or you can think about single desires. Take the desire of a wife is sensuality. A wife meant in the past sex, means "possessing" a form that was tantalizing, gentlesness, someone that avoid you housework, a lot of things that are linked to sensuality. Good things. But what is the price? I have seen a young married couple divided from an incident, I think the widow will never recover. And how much work you have to do? What if she goes away or betrays you? Illness, old age, death, quarrels, disputes. You work 12 hours, you sleep 8 hours, is it really so good or the good is mostly imagined? Having sons? Pleasurable, but the mass of suffering that can bring? Friend, are there all the time? Are they reliable?

Or take to possess a house. You cannot have peace if you have a house. Sometimes there are problems, sometimes you desire to improve the sights or the comfort, they can steal into your house, it can burn. You're always liable, prey (cit. Nyanamoli) to suffering if there's attachment. You can feel the restlessness of all this easily.

But you can also reflect on thing that happens in your life, before switching to the general. The promotion (= money, better treatment, better sights, a lot of sensuality is concerned, it is not just conceit) that you want, is really worth it? What is the drawbacks? More responsabilities? You can fail?

To sum all up = Conditions can change, all is impermanent and that causes Dukkha, displeasure, grief, etc. Being dispassionate is the best thing to do and cultivate peace of seclusion seems a better option.

Practically this seclusion is the result of reasoning about your well-being and the perception of incostancy/impermanence and the risks in the future. After a while, to get separated from all this mess will become pleasurable, because the mind will take pleasure in what he reflects about and finds good for his well-being (of course, you truly have to be convinced that separation is good, you can't lie to yourself). You will be glad to avoid all this. This is the happiness of seclusion that is linked to the future happiness of being neutral and appreciate neutral feelings, which are better than unpleasant feeling of course, but are better than pleasant feelings too because they don't risk to ensnare you into sensuality. Sooner or later if one proceeds with analyzing the drawbacks and starts to see the alternative, the calm and the peace of the jhanic pleasure that is precisely the pleasure to be secluded from sensuality and his continuous impingment and all his request will be the preferred option, and there will be revulsion to any form of attachment and that is a form of happiness.
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Re: 📍 "...while staying at the root of a tree...", MN 19 (Week of December 5, 2021)

Post by Sam Vara »

nirodh27 wrote: Tue Dec 07, 2021 11:51 am
Sam Vara wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 8:18 pm
2) I find renunciation interesting here. All the different translators use that term for nekkhamma, although they vary when translating the other qualities. Kāma is "sensual desire", "sense pleasures", "sensual thoughts", "sensuality", and "(thinking imbued with) sensuality" for BB, Horner, Sujāto, Suddhāso, and Thanissaro, respectively. But despite their agreement on this, it's difficult to see what renunciation actually means in this context. Clearly, "good will" or "non-malevolence" or "non-ill will" are counterparts to "ill will" in a different way that "renunciation" is a counterpart to sensuality. It's not the opposite, but a giving up. Would a "thought of renunciation" be something like "I like ice-cream, but I'm not going to open the fridge to get any" - i.e. would it be a sensual thought and a further thought about one's desire? Or would it be any thought that one does not desire (i.e. a neutral or unwanted thought) as when a random thought pops up and excites no desire? "I've just thought about ice-cream, but I've never liked it, so that's OK...". A renunciative thought, or a thought of something renounced? Or of something which has no need of being renounced?
Hi Sam Vara,

(sorry, I've written this very fast)

I think that is the opposite too. The pleasure of knowing of being in the opposite direction of sensuality. It takes a lot of time to make the shift, that is why is a spontaneous u-turn given by careful and prolonged reasoning on the Dhamma.
I'm not quite sure what you mean here. It might help if you could give an example of a nekkhammavitakko, as I did above.
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Re: 📍 "...while staying at the root of a tree...", MN 19 (Week of December 5, 2021)

Post by nirodh27 »

Sam Vara wrote: Tue Dec 07, 2021 12:39 pm I'm not quite sure what you mean here. It might help if you could give an example of a nekkhammavitakko, as I did above.
Hi Sam Vara,

The thoughts (I would call them reflections since it is Vitakka&Vicara) would be the ones that springs for the kinds of (rought) reflections that I've delinated in my post. Thoughts without sensual desire, thoughts that goes in the opposite direction of the world.

I'll try to put it in the terms that you ask, hoping that I'm not missing something:

"Ice-cream is pleasurable, but having no desire for ice-cream have no drawbacks and it is better since it without disturbance!".

"I've just thought about ice-cream, but even if i like it, the long-term consequences of increasing my desire are nothing compared to that simple and brief pleasure. Renunciation instead have very good long-term consequences that will make me happy!"

"How good is to have fewer wishes, it is peaceful and I don't need to work hard, to quarrel, to be possessive and I avoid many unpleasant unwholesome states of minds"

"How good is not to have something loved, I'm glad that I haven't. There's no restlessness whatsoever if I'm secluded to this kind of craving!".

"How good is to be able to live without nothing, there is no anxiety here".

Thoughts like
"I like ice-cream, but I'm not going to open the fridge to get any"
"I've just thought about ice-cream, but I've never liked it, so that's OK..."
don't contain, don't include the happiness of renunciation. The first is an "ascetic practice", the second is equanimity towards something that is not tantalizing for you.
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Re: 📍 "...while staying at the root of a tree...", MN 19 (Week of December 5, 2021)

Post by Sam Vara »

nirodh27 wrote: Tue Dec 07, 2021 1:16 pm
Sam Vara wrote: Tue Dec 07, 2021 12:39 pm I'm not quite sure what you mean here. It might help if you could give an example of a nekkhammavitakko, as I did above.
Hi Sam Vara,

The thoughts (I would call them reflections since it is Vitakka&Vicara) would be the ones that springs for the kinds of (rought) reflections that I've delinated in my post. Thoughts without sensual desire, thoughts that goes in the opposite direction of the world.

I'll try to put it in the terms that you ask, hoping that I'm not missing something:

"Ice-cream is pleasurable, but having no desire for ice-cream have no drawbacks and it is better since it without disturbance!".

"I've just thought about ice-cream, but even if i like it, the long-term consequences of increasing my desire are nothing compared to that simple and brief pleasure. Renunciation instead have very good long-term consequences that will make me happy!"

"How good is to have fewer wishes, it is peaceful and I don't need to work hard, to quarrel, to be possessive and I avoid many unpleasant unwholesome states of minds"

"How good is not to have something loved, I'm glad that I haven't. There's no restlessness whatsoever if I'm secluded to this kind of craving!".

"How good is to be able to live without nothing, there is no anxiety here".

Thoughts like
"I like ice-cream, but I'm not going to open the fridge to get any"
"I've just thought about ice-cream, but I've never liked it, so that's OK..."
don't contain, don't include the happiness of renunciation. The first is an "ascetic practice", the second is equanimity towards something that is not tantalizing for you.
Ah, yes, thanks, I understand now. It was actually what I meant by the first example quoted: "I like ice cream, but I'm not going to open the fridge to get any". I should have made it clearer by adding another bit on. "I'm not going to open that fridge because the happiness of not having a desire surpasses the happiness of eating the ice cream".

Gratitude to you for pointing that out. :anjali: :heart:
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Re: 📍 "...while staying at the root of a tree...", MN 19 (Week of December 5, 2021)

Post by SDC »

nirodh27 wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 5:26 pm
SDC wrote: Sun Dec 05, 2021 4:41 am 📚
Hi SDC and everyone on the study group,

Hi nirodh27,

First want to say thank you for adding so much to the discussion. I don’t think there is much we are seeing too differently except perhaps what the crops are signifying - though what you say is quite thought-provoking. I’ve always taken the potential for the cowherd to face a punishment for the wandering cows as a simile for the danger in sensuality - for affliction, danger of death and suffering. I don’t disagree with other similes about the wholesome benefits of a fertile field, but in this particular instance I’m leaning more towards the dry fields as a representation of that seclusion and safety from the former inclination - perhaps that the crops were what bent the mind (?). Something else that strikes me while I think about it, is how Mara pursued the Buddha for those seven years after his enlightenment, so I’m wondering if we can even say that the crops are the thoughts themselves (considering the unwholesome offers coming from Mara). Perhaps it is more accurate to say that the draw of the crops is perhaps even the desire and lust. Lots to consider. Good stuff.
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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Re: 📍 "...while staying at the root of a tree...", MN 19 (Week of December 5, 2021)

Post by SDC »

confusedlayman wrote: Sun Dec 05, 2021 5:02 am so renunciation is emptying the mind and keep it as space?
Not sure if it is about emptying as much as it is to seclude from the unwholesome, but according to this sutta, even with that there is the risk of overplaying one’s hand on that wholesome inclination - of overthinking it and not utilizing it for the purposes of liberation. If we take the case of Bhaddiya, it seems he was well-secluded, and that his field was absolutely as dry as possible, yet - without the Buddha’s instructions - was unable to do anything with it.
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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Re: 📍 "...while staying at the root of a tree...", MN 19 (Week of December 5, 2021)

Post by SDC »

Sam Vara wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 8:18 pm 2) I find renunciation interesting here. All the different translators use that term for nekkhamma, although they vary when translating the other qualities. Kāma is "sensual desire", "sense pleasures", "sensual thoughts", "sensuality", and "(thinking imbued with) sensuality" for BB, Horner, Sujāto, Suddhāso, and Thanissaro, respectively. But despite their agreement on this, it's difficult to see what renunciation actually means in this context. Clearly, "good will" or "non-malevolence" or "non-ill will" are counterparts to "ill will" in a different way that "renunciation" is a counterpart to sensuality. It's not the opposite, but a giving up. Would a "thought of renunciation" be something like "I like ice-cream, but I'm not going to open the fridge to get any" - i.e. would it be a sensual thought and a further thought about one's desire? Or would it be any thought that one does not desire (i.e. a neutral or unwanted thought) as when a random thought pops up and excites no desire? "I've just thought about ice-cream, but I've never liked it, so that's OK...". A renunciative thought, or a thought of something renounced? Or of something which has no need of being renounced?
Hi SV,

Perhaps this can shed some light:
And how, bhikkhus, is there nonrestraint? There are, bhikkhus, forms cognizable by the eye … sounds cognizable by the ear … mental phenomena cognizable by the mind that are desirable, lovely, agreeable, pleasing, sensually enticing, tantalizing. If a bhikkhu seeks delight in them, welcomes them, and remains holding to them, he should understand this thus: ‘I am declining away from wholesome states. For this has been called decline by the Blessed One.’
The door is open, there is delight, and sensuality is welcome, but not so much on a case-by-case basis, but generally speaking - since it is an kāmupādāna (clinging to sense pleasures)- it is an attitude that certain things can come in and others can’t - the acceptance that the door is yours to guard. Problem with that type of regulation is that there will be times when the unwanted makes it through, and that is the risk - like the simile of the mango tree, eventually someone will come along and cut it, so even the best regulated framework puts you at risk. Why? Because you’ve accepted the position of allowing sensuality to be a source of relief in cases where it is acceptable. Though restraint would only get you so far, a turn towards renunciation would require effort:

SN 14.12:
Thoughts of renunciation, good will, and harmlessness arise for a reason, not without reason.

And how do thoughts of renunciation, good will, and harmlessness arise for a reason, not without reason? The element of renunciation gives rise to perceptions of renunciation. Perceptions of renunciation give rise to thoughts of renunciation. Thoughts of renunciation give rise to enthusiasm for renunciation. Enthusiasm for renunciation gives rise to fervor for renunciation. Fervor for renunciation gives rise to the search for renunciation. An educated noble disciple on a search for renunciation behaves well in three ways: by body, speech, and mind.
Again, this really puts forward how much effort this would require. Like Tālapuṭa in Thag 19.1 basically telling the story of how he taught his mind to enjoy the jungle and seclusion.
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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