🟧 "...while staying at the root of a tree...", MN 19 (Week of December 5, 2021)

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SDC
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Re: 📍 "...while staying at the root of a tree...", MN 19 (Week of December 5, 2021)

Post by SDC »

Joe.c wrote: Sun Dec 05, 2021 5:41 am For me this is related to development of the N8FP especially, samma ditthi, samma sankappa, samma vayama, samma sati and finally the development of samma samadhi (unification of mind) to make the mind not stress due to too much thinkings.

You can check MN 117 great forty, especially the noble, undefiled, transcendent, a factor of the path.

SDC, i know you are familiar with Bhante Punnaji work. This MN 19 is related to citta (emotional/evil mind) and mano (cognitive/good mind).
Bringing back nice memories of my time studying dear Ven. Punnaji. He was the first to pull me close to the suttas and I am forever indebted to him for it.

I agree with your thoughts on MN 117. That is another very strong sutta.
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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Re: 📍 "...while staying at the root of a tree...", MN 19 (Week of December 5, 2021)

Post by Sam Vara »

SDC wrote: Tue Dec 07, 2021 3:34 pm
Sam Vara wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 8:18 pm 2) I find renunciation interesting here. All the different translators use that term for nekkhamma, although they vary when translating the other qualities. Kāma is "sensual desire", "sense pleasures", "sensual thoughts", "sensuality", and "(thinking imbued with) sensuality" for BB, Horner, Sujāto, Suddhāso, and Thanissaro, respectively. But despite their agreement on this, it's difficult to see what renunciation actually means in this context. Clearly, "good will" or "non-malevolence" or "non-ill will" are counterparts to "ill will" in a different way that "renunciation" is a counterpart to sensuality. It's not the opposite, but a giving up. Would a "thought of renunciation" be something like "I like ice-cream, but I'm not going to open the fridge to get any" - i.e. would it be a sensual thought and a further thought about one's desire? Or would it be any thought that one does not desire (i.e. a neutral or unwanted thought) as when a random thought pops up and excites no desire? "I've just thought about ice-cream, but I've never liked it, so that's OK...". A renunciative thought, or a thought of something renounced? Or of something which has no need of being renounced?
Hi SV,

Perhaps this can shed some light:
And how, bhikkhus, is there nonrestraint? There are, bhikkhus, forms cognizable by the eye … sounds cognizable by the ear … mental phenomena cognizable by the mind that are desirable, lovely, agreeable, pleasing, sensually enticing, tantalizing. If a bhikkhu seeks delight in them, welcomes them, and remains holding to them, he should understand this thus: ‘I am declining away from wholesome states. For this has been called decline by the Blessed One.’
The door is open, there is delight, and sensuality is welcome, but not so much on a case-by-case basis, but generally speaking - since it is an kāmupādāna (clinging to sense pleasures)- it is an attitude that certain things can come in and others can’t - the acceptance that the door is yours to guard. Problem with that type of regulation is that there will be times when the unwanted makes it through, and that is the risk - like the simile of the mango tree, eventually someone will come along and cut it, so even the best regulated framework puts you at risk. Why? Because you’ve accepted the position of allowing sensuality to be a source of relief in cases where it is acceptable. Though restraint would only get you so far, a turn towards renunciation would require effort:

SN 14.12:
Thoughts of renunciation, good will, and harmlessness arise for a reason, not without reason.

And how do thoughts of renunciation, good will, and harmlessness arise for a reason, not without reason? The element of renunciation gives rise to perceptions of renunciation. Perceptions of renunciation give rise to thoughts of renunciation. Thoughts of renunciation give rise to enthusiasm for renunciation. Enthusiasm for renunciation gives rise to fervor for renunciation. Fervor for renunciation gives rise to the search for renunciation. An educated noble disciple on a search for renunciation behaves well in three ways: by body, speech, and mind.
Again, this really puts forward how much effort this would require. Like Tālapuṭa in Thag 19.1 basically telling the story of how he taught his mind to enjoy the jungle and seclusion.

Many thanks for these other suttas, SDC; they do indeed help me to understand the original point. (Although you never shy away from showing how hard it is to follow the Buddha's path!)

It might be a bit of a red herring here, but the "element of renunciation" is interesting, along with the other bits from SN14.12. Do you think it could be described in more detail (given that it is an element, and therefore at some level unanalysable)? And how would perceptions of renunciation differ from thoughts of renunciation?
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Re: 📍 "...while staying at the root of a tree...", MN 19 (Week of December 5, 2021)

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Sam Vara wrote: Tue Dec 07, 2021 4:11 pm Many thanks for these other suttas, SDC; they do indeed help me to understand the original point. (Although you never shy away from showing how hard it is to follow the Buddha's path!)
If Ajahn Nyanamoli is going to do it me then I’m sure going to pass it on to y’all! :lol:
Sam Vara wrote: Tue Dec 07, 2021 4:11 pm It might be a bit of a red herring here, but the "element of renunciation" is interesting, along with the other bits from SN14.12. Do you think it could be described in more detail (given that it is an element, and therefore at some level unanalysable)? And how would perceptions of renunciation differ from thoughts of renunciation?
As I see it - based on descriptions of developing the perception of death and the Woodpile sutta about elements - to describe it as an element is sort of an assurance that it is a property that can be discerned. Developing the perception is finding where it is in experience, as if to ask, “What in this entire experience would count as renunciation? Where is it found right now?”. That takes work because those notions might start out as fairly minuscule, but will grow as it develops. And the thoughts are how you reflect on that “place” as it really becomes tangible and meaningful, “This is what renunciation will be if I pursue it.” And yeah, SN 14.12 is interesting in that there are all those things to work out and then you go searching for it, but I think they key is that if you don’t understand its implications, if you aren’t enthusiastic about it, if you don’t want it, you won’t genuinely be looking to develop it.

Not happy with the conjecture on my behalf in this post, but indeed these subtleties are hard to show with anything less than about ten different suttas. Didn’t want to clutter it up, but will gladly pull them if you’re interested.
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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Re: 📍 "...while staying at the root of a tree...", MN 19 (Week of December 5, 2021)

Post by Sam Vara »

SDC wrote: Tue Dec 07, 2021 5:02 pm
Sam Vara wrote: Tue Dec 07, 2021 4:11 pm Many thanks for these other suttas, SDC; they do indeed help me to understand the original point. (Although you never shy away from showing how hard it is to follow the Buddha's path!)
If Ajahn Nyanamoli is going to do it me then I’m sure going to pass it on to y’all! :lol:
Sam Vara wrote: Tue Dec 07, 2021 4:11 pm It might be a bit of a red herring here, but the "element of renunciation" is interesting, along with the other bits from SN14.12. Do you think it could be described in more detail (given that it is an element, and therefore at some level unanalysable)? And how would perceptions of renunciation differ from thoughts of renunciation?
As I see it - based on descriptions of developing the perception of death and the Woodpile sutta about elements - to describe it as an element is sort of an assurance that it is a property that can be discerned. Developing the perception is finding where it is in experience, as if to ask, “What in this entire experience would count as renunciation? Where is it found right now?”. That takes work because those notions might start out as fairly minuscule, but will grow as it develops. And the thoughts are how you reflect on that “place” as it really becomes tangible and meaningful, “This is what renunciation will be if I pursue it.” And yeah, SN 14.12 is interesting in that there are all those things to work out and then you go searching for it, but I think they key is that if you don’t understand its implications, if you aren’t enthusiastic about it, if you don’t want it, you won’t genuinely be looking to develop it.

Not happy with the conjecture on my behalf in this post, but indeed these subtleties are hard to show with anything less than about ten different suttas. Didn’t want to clutter it up, but will gladly pull them if you’re interested.
You may not be happy, but I am! You've clarified a lot for me here. It's not really conjecture if it's based on sound understanding. :anjali: :heart:
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Re: 📍 "...while staying at the root of a tree...", MN 19 (Week of December 5, 2021)

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Sam Vara wrote: Tue Dec 07, 2021 5:18 pm You may not be happy, but I am! You've clarified a lot for me here. It's not really conjecture if it's based on sound understanding. :anjali: :heart:
I get anxiety if I don’t include enough sutta references to solidify a position… :? :D

Glad my post was helpful!
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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Re: 📍 "...while staying at the root of a tree...", MN 19 (Week of December 5, 2021)

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SDC wrote
I get anxiety if I don’t include enough sutta references to solidify a position
Here is another one to solidify the position.
Not sure whether you noticed, there is a simile a bit like the cowherd simile found in MN 19 elsewhere. It is found in Vinopama sutta SN 35.246, not quite in the exact same context as two kinds of thoughts, but the soteriological intention is related.
https://suttacentral.net/sn35.246/en/bo ... ript=latin
In Vinopama sutta the simile is used in relation to guarded mind and unguarded mind. We may infer the unguarded mind gives rise to unwholesome thoughts and the guarded mind to wholesome thoughts.
Here is the portion of Vinopama sutta I am referring to.
“Suppose, bhikkhus, that the barley has ripened and the watchman is negligent. If a bull fond of barley enters the barley field, he might indulge himself as much as he likes. So too, bhikkhus, the uninstructed worldling who does not exercise restraint over the six bases for contact indulges himself as much as he likes in the five cords of sensual pleasure.
“Suppose, bhikkhus, that the barley has ripened and the watchman is vigilant. If a bull fond of barley enters the barley field, the watchman would catch hold of him firmly by the muzzle. While holding him firmly by the muzzle, he would get a secure grip on the locks between his horns and, keeping him in check there, would give him a sound beating with his staff. After giving him that beating, he would drive the bull away. This might happen a second time and a third time. Thus that bull fond of barley, whether he has gone to the village or the forest, whether he is accustomed to standing or to sitting, remembering the previous beating he got from the staff, would not enter that barley field again.
“So too, bhikkhus, when a bhikkhu’s mind has been subdued, well subdued, regarding the six bases for contact, it then becomes inwardly steady, settled, unified, and concentrated.
In this sutta guarding in relation to the 6 sense bases is emphasized.
Nice to find relationships of this sort in Majjima Nikaya and Samyutta Nikaya.
With love :candle:
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Re: 📍 "...while staying at the root of a tree...", MN 19 (Week of December 5, 2021)

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Pulsar wrote: Thu Dec 09, 2021 9:35 pm Here is the portion of Vinopama sutta I am referring to.
“Suppose, bhikkhus, that the barley has ripened and the watchman is negligent. If a bull fond of barley enters the barley field, he might indulge himself as much as he likes. So too, bhikkhus, the uninstructed worldling who does not exercise restraint over the six bases for contact indulges himself as much as he likes in the five cords of sensual pleasure.
“Suppose, bhikkhus, that the barley has ripened and the watchman is vigilant. If a bull fond of barley enters the barley field, the watchman would catch hold of him firmly by the muzzle. While holding him firmly by the muzzle, he would get a secure grip on the locks between his horns and, keeping him in check there, would give him a sound beating with his staff. After giving him that beating, he would drive the bull away. This might happen a second time and a third time. Thus that bull fond of barley, whether he has gone to the village or the forest, whether he is accustomed to standing or to sitting, remembering the previous beating he got from the staff, would not enter that barley field again.
“So too, bhikkhus, when a bhikkhu’s mind has been subdued, well subdued, regarding the six bases for contact, it then becomes inwardly steady, settled, unified, and concentrated.
In this sutta guarding in relation to the 6 sense bases is emphasized.
Nice to find relationships of this sort in Majjima Nikaya and Samyutta Nikaya.
With love :candle:
That SN 35 seems to always provide an abundance of heartwood. Thanks, Pulsar!
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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Re: 📍 "...while staying at the root of a tree...", MN 19 (Week of December 5, 2021)

Post by Pulsar »

SDC wrote
an abundance of heartwood.
Sometimes your comments provoke me in a nice way.
Now about the sutta in the SN, what struck me is that it stresses the 6 touch points, which the agama suttas tend to stress more.
I began paying attention to SN thanks to thomaslaw.
Here is something I found in the introduction to SN by VBB. In comparing the suttas in the different nikayas. P31 of Samyutta Nikaya.
Excerpt:
DN was primarily intended for the purpose of propaganda,
to attract converts to the new religion, and thus is aimed mainly at non-buddhists. favorably disposed to Buddhism;
MN in contrast was directed inwards towards Buddhist community and its purpose was to extoll the Master (both as a real person and as an archetype), and to integrate monks into the community and the practice....
SN (as is also AN) were as a general rule not targeted at outsiders or even at the newly converted,
but whee intended principally for those who had already turned for refuge
to the Dhamma and were deeply immersed in its study and practice...
Thanks for the heartwood.
With love :candle:
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Re: 📍 "...while staying at the root of a tree...", MN 19 (Week of December 5, 2021)

Post by Pulsar »

Sam Vara wrote
So what more does one need to become enlightened, given that the jhanas were known about, and the two kinds of thinking predate enlightenment?
Jhanas as Buddha taught were not known before Buddha's enlightenment. Upanisad influenced suttas in the Pali canon containing Arupa samapathis were later entries. If you study these, they are in complete conflict with the teaching of Dependent Origination.
In Buddha's teaching, Jhana has to be approached via the 8-fold path. In that path prior to the jhanas we have the 4 establishments of mindfulness.
SN 47.42 describes the correct procedure. DN 22/MN 10 are later fabrications (fraudulent) by Vibajjavadins. .
I have not read of any teacher, neither Brahmins nor Jains, not even other wanderers who taught the 4 Establishments of mindfulness as described in SN 47.42. One has to have a firm understanding of Dependent Origination, for such practice.
Was not Buddha the first person to come up with the "Dependent origination?"
Any jhana reached without moving through the 4 establishments of mindfulness, would they accomplish the same task? perhaps rapturous states temporarily! but not the elimination of suffering.
Anuruddha Samyutta, emphasizes the importance of the 4 establishments of mindfulness for the ending of suffering. Jhana (according to Buddha) can only be approached after the successful establishments of Mindfulness.
Be well! :candle:
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