Ajahn Jayasaro : To learn Buddhavacana without Atthakatha, impossible

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Alino
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Re: Ajahn Jayasaro : To learn Buddhavacana without Atthakatha, impossible

Post by Alino »

🙏😊 Thank you !
We don't live Samsara, Samsara is living us...

"Form, feelings, perceptions, formations, consciousness - don't care about us, we don't exist for them"
BrokenBones
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Re: Ajahn Jayasaro : To learn Buddhavacana without Atthakatha, impossible

Post by BrokenBones »

mikenz66 wrote: Fri Dec 10, 2021 8:53 pm Thank you for the translation.
Ontheway wrote: Fri Dec 10, 2021 2:18 pm....now they said "Buddhawajana" is the complete Buddha's words. But that is just a Thai translation of Pali texts. It hardly an authentic "Buddhavacana". Anyone who has experience in translating texts from one language to another should know how difficult it is to maintain the intended meaning of the text. ...
It's interesting how various recent movements in Thailand, Sri Lanka, and elsewhere, have come up with their own rather odd interpretations. See Ven Dhammanando's comments the Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara thread: viewtopic.php?f=46&t=26749&p=421520&hil ... do#p421520
While carefully examining the early texts is a good thing if it's done in an unbiased and well-researched way,
I think it is good to be skeptical of any movement that claims to be "recovering the original teachings". Especially when the claim is that "everyone else has been misinterpreting them for 2500 years". The link I gave above shows how this can go horribly wrong.

:heart:
Mike
Re the highlighted... couldn't the same be said of interpretations a thousand years after the Buddha?

Antiquity doesn't equate to truth and such interpretations should be considered with the same skepticism as new interpretations.

There's much in commentarial works that aligns with the Buddha's words and much that doesn't... a bit like modern interpretations... but we don't issue dire warnings if we don't agree with the modern stuff or praise their unimpeachable sanctity.

A thousand years is a long time... just think, a thousand years ago king cnut was doing things with the tide off the coast of England... it's a long time.

The Buddha's words that have come down to us over 2500 years are either to be our main focus or the danger of becoming just another Mahayana sect or a Vedic mockery of the Buddha is very real.
Ontheway
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Re: Ajahn Jayasaro : To learn Buddhavacana without Atthakatha, impossible

Post by Ontheway »

BrokenBones wrote: Sat Dec 18, 2021 12:31 pm
mikenz66 wrote: Fri Dec 10, 2021 8:53 pm Thank you for the translation.
Ontheway wrote: Fri Dec 10, 2021 2:18 pm....now they said "Buddhawajana" is the complete Buddha's words. But that is just a Thai translation of Pali texts. It hardly an authentic "Buddhavacana". Anyone who has experience in translating texts from one language to another should know how difficult it is to maintain the intended meaning of the text. ...
It's interesting how various recent movements in Thailand, Sri Lanka, and elsewhere, have come up with their own rather odd interpretations. See Ven Dhammanando's comments the Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara thread: viewtopic.php?f=46&t=26749&p=421520&hil ... do#p421520
While carefully examining the early texts is a good thing if it's done in an unbiased and well-researched way,
I think it is good to be skeptical of any movement that claims to be "recovering the original teachings". Especially when the claim is that "everyone else has been misinterpreting them for 2500 years". The link I gave above shows how this can go horribly wrong.

:heart:
Mike
Re the highlighted... couldn't the same be said of interpretations a thousand years after the Buddha?

Antiquity doesn't equate to truth and such interpretations should be considered with the same skepticism as new interpretations.

There's much in commentarial works that aligns with the Buddha's words and much that doesn't... a bit like modern interpretations... but we don't issue dire warnings if we don't agree with the modern stuff or praise their unimpeachable sanctity.

A thousand years is a long time... just think, a thousand years ago king cnut was doing things with the tide off the coast of England... it's a long time.

The Buddha's words that have come down to us over 2500 years are either to be our main focus or the danger of becoming just another Mahayana sect or a Vedic mockery of the Buddha is very real.
Well, those time there were Arahants, complete with Patisambida knowledge, Chalabhinna knowledge, and Iddhipadas, capable to remember the entire Pali canon, and capable to verify the Saddhamma since the first council, second Council, third council and fourth council ...hardly disputable.

Any of the present day's monks are Arahants completed with Chalabhinna knowledge, Patisambida knowledge, and Iddhipadas? What makes them equal to those ancient Arahant Theras and Theris? :thinking: I think monks or laypeople of modern generation are welcomed to interpret the texts with their limited level of wisdom...but to compare themselves to those Arahants? Pure ego and out of the question. :rolleye:
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
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mikenz66
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Re: Ajahn Jayasaro : To learn Buddhavacana without Atthakatha, impossible

Post by mikenz66 »

BrokenBones wrote: Sat Dec 18, 2021 12:31 pm
mikenz66 wrote: Fri Dec 10, 2021 8:53 pm Thank you for the translation.
Ontheway wrote: Fri Dec 10, 2021 2:18 pm....now they said "Buddhawajana" is the complete Buddha's words. But that is just a Thai translation of Pali texts. It hardly an authentic "Buddhavacana". Anyone who has experience in translating texts from one language to another should know how difficult it is to maintain the intended meaning of the text. ...
It's interesting how various recent movements in Thailand, Sri Lanka, and elsewhere, have come up with their own rather odd interpretations. See Ven Dhammanando's comments the Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara thread: viewtopic.php?f=46&t=26749&p=421520&hil ... do#p421520
While carefully examining the early texts is a good thing if it's done in an unbiased and well-researched way,
I think it is good to be skeptical of any movement that claims to be "recovering the original teachings". Especially when the claim is that "everyone else has been misinterpreting them for 2500 years". The link I gave above shows how this can go horribly wrong.

:heart:
Mike
Re the highlighted... couldn't the same be said of interpretations a thousand years after the Buddha?

Antiquity doesn't equate to truth and such interpretations should be considered with the same skepticism as new interpretations.

There's much in commentarial works that aligns with the Buddha's words and much that doesn't... a bit like modern interpretations... but we don't issue dire warnings if we don't agree with the modern stuff or praise their unimpeachable sanctity.

A thousand years is a long time... just think, a thousand years ago king cnut was doing things with the tide off the coast of England... it's a long time.

The Buddha's words that have come down to us over 2500 years are either to be our main focus or the danger of becoming just another Mahayana sect or a Vedic mockery of the Buddha is very real.
As I said, any interpretation should be investigated thoroughly. I gave an example of one particular modern interpretation that seems to be completely off the rails. As you say, the danger of turning into a mockery is real.

:heart:
Mike
BrokenBones
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Re: Ajahn Jayasaro : To learn Buddhavacana without Atthakatha, impossible

Post by BrokenBones »

Ontheway wrote: Sat Dec 18, 2021 2:36 pm
BrokenBones wrote: Sat Dec 18, 2021 12:31 pm
mikenz66 wrote: Fri Dec 10, 2021 8:53 pm Thank you for the translation.

It's interesting how various recent movements in Thailand, Sri Lanka, and elsewhere, have come up with their own rather odd interpretations. See Ven Dhammanando's comments the Waharaka Abhayaratanalankara thread: viewtopic.php?f=46&t=26749&p=421520&hil ... do#p421520
Re the highlighted... couldn't the same be said of interpretations a thousand years after the Buddha?

Antiquity doesn't equate to truth and such interpretations should be considered with the same skepticism as new interpretations.

There's much in commentarial works that aligns with the Buddha's words and much that doesn't... a bit like modern interpretations... but we don't issue dire warnings if we don't agree with the modern stuff or praise their unimpeachable sanctity.

A thousand years is a long time... just think, a thousand years ago king cnut was doing things with the tide off the coast of England... it's a long time.

The Buddha's words that have come down to us over 2500 years are either to be our main focus or the danger of becoming just another Mahayana sect or a Vedic mockery of the Buddha is very real.
Well, those time there were Arahants, complete with Patisambida knowledge, Chalabhinna knowledge, and Iddhipadas, capable to remember the entire Pali canon, and capable to verify the Saddhamma since the first council, second Council, third council and fourth council ...hardly disputable.

Any of the present day's monks are Arahants completed with Chalabhinna knowledge, Patisambida knowledge, and Iddhipadas? What makes them equal to those ancient Arahant Theras and Theris? :thinking: I think monks or laypeople of modern generation are welcomed to interpret the texts with their limited level of wisdom...but to compare themselves to those Arahants? Pure ego and out of the question. :rolleye:
I think you've just proved my point. You're equating antiquity with unimpeachable sanctity. For me, the Buddha and his contemporary disciples are the benchmark... the rest is just speculation or even worse... fairy tales & a rewriting of history.

Wishful thinking and 'historical accounts' written centuries or even Millenia later doesn't change things... the first council did not rubber stamp anything apart from the suttas & vinaya. To claim the Buddha's words and Dhamma are not understandable in the here & now without a vast commentarial tradition is disrespectful to the Buddha & Dhamma. Clarification, teaching, encouragement etc. are all necessary by our 'good spiritual friends' but a commentarial tradition that at times is in direct conflict with the Buddha's Dhamma is not.
Ontheway
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Re: Ajahn Jayasaro : To learn Buddhavacana without Atthakatha, impossible

Post by Ontheway »

:thinking:

Whatever you said...that is your choice. I will better stick with the intended exposition that is well explained and approved by the councils.

Never a fan for new age thing.
To claim the Buddha's words and Dhamma are not understandable in the here & now without a vast commentarial tradition is disrespectful to the Buddha & Dhamma.
I did not said so. The Dhamma can be understood by anyone provided that he/she possess a keen wisdom, proper thinking, and take up the doctrine in correct way as told in Alagaddupama sutta. If this person is capable so, then commentaries are not needed. The Commentaries are designed in such a way to assist students to gain proper way of looking at Pali canon. Without looking at commentaries, then people will go astray and freely interpret the Pali canon according to his/her own limited understanding and bias. These people rejected Atthakatha, eg:

1) Buddhadasa Bhikkhu: No next life, no Devas, no Brahmas, no Petas, no rebirth. If you think you let go already, then you attained Nibbana.

2) Ajahn Kukrit: Scrapped the entire Pali Tipitaka and remake it as "Buddhawajana" canon and introduce new ways (and doubtful) of interpretation. Take up only 150 Vinaya rules.

3) LP Dhammavuddho: A strong EBT supporter. Said that Pali Tipitaka cannot be trusted and only focus on five Nikayas. And claimed that Buddha Dhamma taught that there is indeed a soul. After death, the soul (or using his term: "Linghun") will float out from the dead body and stay a period of time before searching new body.

4) Ven. Pannadhammika here in this forum: His posts suggested that there is indeed a stage of "Antarabhava", which is already disproved by Theravada tradition and finds no support in Pali canon.

5) Waharaka: Freely interpret the Dhamma using Sinhalese language and misconstrued Pali terminology, until the whole doctrine fall apart with just nonsense and wild guesses as indicated above.

6) Thai forest tradition of Ajahn Maha Bua: Claimed that there is an eternal consciousness, which is directly challenging the main idea of Buddha Dhamma, which is Anicca, Dukkha, and Anatta.

And like you said, it's been many years away from Buddha's time. What makes the modern interpretation (which is way more different age and far away from Buddha's time) better than the ancient tradition that were preserved since the first Council, through second Council, third council and fourth council of Arahants (which is nearer to Buddha's time and actually they were Arahants around to preserve the precious Dhamma)? :shrug:

Sorry to say...For those modern monks or laypeople, while clearly still have defilement and much things to do, wanted to compare themselves with those ancient Arahants or Theras or Theris for explanation...I think it is just pure ego and overestimating one's ability...

And Buddha Dhamma is not like other religions such as Christianity, where orthodoxy is scorned and being rebellious/innovative is virtuous...in Buddhism, the goal of the teachings is attaining Arahantship. And the Blessed One along with His disciples were all Arahants, attained the same goal and utterly freed from all defilements that bind them to Samsara. Authority was established with such stage of attainment. The authority stance is much appreciated and followed in Theravada lineage (that's why we have unbroken line of teachers extended way back to first generation Arahants, preserving Pali scriptures from one generation to another). Since Atthakatha was approved by Arahants, I don't see any reason not to utilise them. Although I don't necessarily need to read the entire Atthakatha in order to understand Pali canon, but still I will not reject it just because of personal bias.

Ven. Ashin Sarana explained it very well.


However, it is really up to each of themselves to investigate further. I wouldn't simply dismiss Atthakatha and replace with new interpretations.
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Ajahn Jayasaro : To learn Buddhavacana without Atthakatha, impossible

Post by Ceisiwr »

Ontheway wrote: Sun Dec 19, 2021 12:28 am
1) Buddhadasa Bhikkhu: No next life, no Devas, no Brahmas, no Petas, no rebirth. If you think you let go already, then you attained Nibbana.
Actually in one of his books Ven. Buddhadasa acknowledges rebirth. On the whole I find those who follow him online tend to misunderstand him. My take away from his is that he tried emphasising emptiness and escape from samsara in a cultural context where merit making and focusing on a good rebirth was being heavily promoted. Context is always key to understanding any teaching, idea, doctrine etc.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
Ontheway
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Re: Ajahn Jayasaro : To learn Buddhavacana without Atthakatha, impossible

Post by Ontheway »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Dec 19, 2021 1:55 am
Ontheway wrote: Sun Dec 19, 2021 12:28 am
1) Buddhadasa Bhikkhu: No next life, no Devas, no Brahmas, no Petas, no rebirth. If you think you let go already, then you attained Nibbana.
Actually in one of his books Ven. Buddhadasa acknowledges rebirth. On the whole I find those who follow him online tend to misunderstand him. My take away from his is that he tried emphasising emptiness and escape from samsara in a cultural context where merit making and focusing on a good rebirth was being heavily promoted. Context is always key to understanding any teaching, idea, doctrine etc.
🤔 In that case, his English speaking followers are the ones to be blamed... :jedi:

Mhmm, I tried to search his info again and many of his western followers did interpreted as such.

Anyway, I decided to listen one of his Thai language interview video:


He said this (basic translation):
"I don't say one will reborn or not reborn after death. It depends on Hetu and Paccaya. But you need to understand this. There is no 'one to die' or 'one to born'. There is nothing called as a person. Because I speak this from the aspect of real sense. Whoever failed to see this is not a Buddhist."

Well, aren't this exactly mentioned in Visuddhimagga:
There is no doer of a deed
Or one who reaps the deed’s result;
Phenomena alone flow on—
No other view than this is right.

-Vism XIX.20
So, after all he did not reject rebirth, it seems. This "no doer" concept was repeated by him again and again in his Thai language Dhamma talks.

But then again in Wikipedia:
Buddhadasa rejected the traditional rebirth and karma doctrine, since he thought it to be incompatible with sunyata, and not conducive to the extinction of dukkha.[7]

Buddhadasa, states John Powers – a professor of Asian Studies and Buddhism, offered a "rationalist interpretation" and thought "the whole question of rebirth to be foolish"
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhadasa

So, I don't really understand his stance. Bhikkhu Buddhadasa is often twisting points here and there...for example, in one of his Dhamma talks, he stated that Buddhaghosa is a Hindu that polluted the Dhamma with his Paticca Samuppada exposition...the topic has been debated on Thai forum...
https://m.pantip.com/topic/31348667?
But then he is using the info from Visuddhimagga to teach. :shrug:

I think he is trying to scrap out all Abhidhamma and Atthakatha (many Suttas too that involved Devas, Petas, Brahmas etc.), and then rebranding "Buddhism" using his words but the idea is still stemming from Pali Tipitaka. He makes it as if he rediscover Buddhism and fully understood it while others didn't... :thinking: maybe I'm wrong...but I am not a fan of him for sure.
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
Ontheway
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Re: Ajahn Jayasaro : To learn Buddhavacana without Atthakatha, impossible

Post by Ontheway »

Found a good writing about the importance of Atthakatha in Buddhasasana.

It is in Sinhalese language but it can be "Google translate"d :lol:

https://buddhistculture.weebly.com/3524 ... 23538.html
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
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