Risks of not taking the covid vaccines.

[Spiny Norman]

Greetings,

Additional risks of not taking COVID vaccines include:

- Being banned from your job
- Being banned from going to certain places and doing certain things (i.e. social ostracism)
- Denial of human rights
- Denial of medical treatment
- Relegation to the second-tier of a two-tiered society

Metta,
Paul.

In the UK, people working in care homes now have to be vaccinated, which I think is a proportionate measure.
The frustration I have with anti-vax rhetoric is that it all seems to be about "rights", and very little about responsibilties. It can sound very "me, me, me", almost narcissistic at times, with no apparent concern for fellow citizens

[Bundokji]

People who don't drink and drive are also "blameless" in that sense. They try not to put themselves or others at unecessary risk.

While driving under the influence of alcohol adds to the risk of accidents, it takes a stretch of imagination to take lack of drinking as warranting good driving.

[Spiny Norman]

People who don't drink and drive are also "blameless" in that sense. They try not to put themselves or others at unecessary risk.

While driving under the influence of alcohol adds to the risk of accidents, it takes a stretch of imagination to take lack of drinking as warranting good driving.

The point is that drink-driving is irresponsible, because it increases the risk of harm to oneself and to others.

[dharmacorps]

The frustration I have with anti-vax rhetoric is that it all seems to be about "rights", and very little about responsibilties. It can sound very "me, me, me", almost narcissistic at times, with no apparent concern for fellow citizens

That fused with spread of disinformation/ psuedoscience fused together as demonstrated.

[Ceisiwr]

Greetings,

Additional risks of not taking COVID vaccines include:

- Being banned from your job
- Being banned from going to certain places and doing certain things (i.e. social ostracism)
- Denial of human rights
- Denial of medical treatment
- Relegation to the second-tier of a two-tiered society

Metta,
Paul.

In the UK, people working in care homes now have to be vaccinated, which I think is a proportionate measure.
The frustration I have with anti-vax rhetoric is that it all seems to be about "rights", and very little about responsibilties. It can sound very "me, me, me", almost narcissistic at times, with no apparent concern for fellow citizens

Those who complain about anti-vaxxers being fired from their job usually support employers firing their employees for being gay, black or whatever or for hotels etc to turn people away based on x characteristic. A true libertarian would support those things and would support employers firing people for not having a vaccine.

Anyway, personally I think if you won't have a vaccine then your employer is well within their rights to terminate your contract. This is even more pertinent when you work with people who are at a higher risk of dying from the virus. However, I would not support forced vaccinations. Our modern concept of medical rights and the need to consent was born from the Nuremburg trials and Nazi atrocities. Every adult does have the right to refuse a vaccine. Based on that I think what is happening in Austria is a disgrace.

[retrofuturist]

Greetings,

A true libertarian would support those things and would support employers firing people for not having a vaccine.

Except (at least in Australia) it's invariably government mandates driving the job losses.

Anyway, personally I think if you won't have a vaccine then your employer is well within their rights to terminate your contract.

I'd suggest that depends on the wording of the contract.

Metta,
Paul.

[Ceisiwr]

Except (at least in Australia) it's invariably government mandates driving the job losses.

In the UK most care homes are privately owned. Some hospitals are too, but the majority are state owned. It really does go without saying that in those settings you can't work without having been vaccinated. In regards to state employees in general, if the state as an employer wishes for it's employees to be vaccinated then I don't see a libertarian argument against it.

I'd suggest that depends on the wording of the contract.

I imagine this works via the employee being offered a new contract which they refuse to sign, which results in being fired.

[retrofuturist]

Greetings,

In the UK most care homes are privately owned. Some hospitals are too, but the majority are state owned. It really does go without saying that in those settings you can't work without having been vaccinated. In regards to state employees in general, if the state as an employer wishes for it's employees to be vaccinated then I don't see a libertarian argument against it.

I'm more referring to the government mandating that people cannot work in certain settings, regardless of whether the service provision is private or public. This is what's happening in Australia. Employers face massive fines if unvaccinated workers are discovered working on site, so it's a massive government intrusion on something which a true libertarian would leave for the employer and employee to negotiate together.

For example, I have a regular Saturday night DJing gig, and were I not vaccinated, I would not be allowed to do it. Not because the owner is pro-mandatory vax (in fact, I know for a fact he's attended at least two freedom rallies, as he is opposed to the mandates) but because the government would impose crushing fines on him. State Premier Dan Andrews calls it "the economy of the vaccinated".

Hence a risk of "not taking the covid vaccines" is the prospect of "being banned from your job".

Metta,
Paul.

[Ceisiwr]

Greetings,

In the UK most care homes are privately owned. Some hospitals are too, but the majority are state owned. It really does go without saying that in those settings you can't work without having been vaccinated. In regards to state employees in general, if the state as an employer wishes for it's employees to be vaccinated then I don't see a libertarian argument against it.

I'm more referring to the government mandating that people cannot work in certain settings, regardless of whether the service provision is private or public. This is what's happening in Australia. Employers face massive fines if unvaccinated workers are discovered working on site, so it's a massive government intrusion on something which a true libertarian would leave for the employer and employee to negotiate together.

Metta,
Paul.

If we take care homes, it is right that unvaccinated carers aren’t allowed to work with their elderly residents. Regarding true libertarianism, such a position would put one in opposition to all health and safety laws and food regulations and so on. Someone can take that position. Many do, but I don’t think it’s a sustainable one. There is a problem in seeing society purely from one point of view. The world is too complex and nuanced for that.

[Nicholas Weeks]

Robin Phillips says "we all need a good dose of intellectual humility":

https://salvomag.com/post/is-vaccine-he ... vindicated

[Nicholas Weeks]

One pediatrician's evolution away from the Pharma medicine model:

https://live.childrenshealthdefense.org ... hooker-phd

[Bundokji]

I made a quick search of Israel's death rate before and after COVID

Israel: Death rate from 2009 to 2019

https://www.statista.com/statistics/580 ... in-israel/

Israel death rate in 2020. More than 6000 people in Israel were designated as died from COVID in 2020.

https://knoema.com/atlas/Israel/Death-rate

More than 6000 people in Israel were designated as died from COVID in 2020.

Now, if you a historian after 20 years looks back at the graphs, and try to determine when the pandemic emerged, it would be quite hard to tell.

[form]

There is a difference between different kinds of vaccine. Also, there is debate on whether so many booster shots will affect the body in a negative way.

[Dan74]

B,

The first chart is a typical trick - of course the mortality due to COVID is small compared to overall mortality, it's not like 50% more people dying than before. Hence the chart obscures the change. No one is suggesting that COVID is the black plague.

I can't really see anything in your second link (maybe it's behind a paywall?), but had a quick look here:

from https://ourworldindata.org/excess-mortality-covid

This chart clearly shows the mortality over and above the expected mortality during the two waves. There are many such longer term charts and our papers here in Switzerland have published them over the pandemic.

I made a quick search of Israel's death rate before and after COVID

Israel: Death rate from 2009 to 2019

https://www.statista.com/statistics/580 ... in-israel/

Israel death rate in 2020. More than 6000 people in Israel were designated as died from COVID in 2020.

https://knoema.com/atlas/Israel/Death-rate

More than 6000 people in Israel were designated as died from COVID in 2020.

Now, if you a historian after 20 years looks back at the graphs, and try to determine when the pandemic emerged, it would be quite hard to tell.

[Bundokji]

B,

The first chart is a typical trick - of course the mortality due to COVID is small compared to overall mortality, it's not like 50% more people dying than before. Hence the chart obscures the change. No one is suggesting that COVID is the black plague.

I can't really see anything in your second link (maybe it's behind a paywall?), but had a quick look here:

israelexcess.png

from https://ourworldindata.org/excess-mortality-covid

This chart clearly shows the mortality over and above the expected mortality during the two waves. There are many such longer term charts and our papers here in Switzerland have published them over the pandemic.

I made a quick search of Israel's death rate before and after COVID

Israel: Death rate from 2009 to 2019

https://www.statista.com/statistics/580 ... in-israel/

Israel death rate in 2020. More than 6000 people in Israel were designated as died from COVID in 2020.

https://knoema.com/atlas/Israel/Death-rate

More than 6000 people in Israel were designated as died from COVID in 2020.

Now, if you a historian after 20 years looks back at the graphs, and try to determine when the pandemic emerged, it would be quite hard to tell.

One could argue that the typical trick is in relying on a graph that covers the relatively short period of the pandemic to hype up any increase in deaths, akin to using a magnifier to make something extremely tiny visible.

The first link i shared included the death rate in Israel between 2009 and 2019 which is between 5 and 5.3. In 2020, where most COVID designated deaths have occurred, the death rate is 5.3 (which is the second link that only shows the death rate without charts).

I used a thought experiment to present the hype. If a historian, 10 or 20 years from now, pending that no sharp or noticeable increases in death rates moving forward, had to rely solely on the charts, setting aside media hype, naming and fear mongering, he would not be able to tell when the "pandemic" occurred, considering that between 2009 and 2019, few years had the death rate of 5.3, and moving forward, it is expected to remain within the same range unless something unusual happens.

What do i mean by something noticeable? something that does not rely on biased narrative and hype to be discerned.