🟩 On kāyagatāsati and kāye kāyānupassī, Part 1 (Week of 1/9/2022)

Where we gather to focus on a single discourse or thematic collection from the Sutta Piṭaka (new selection every two weeks)
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mjaviem
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Re: 📍 On Kāyagatāsati (Week of 1/9/2022)

Post by mjaviem »

I don't know what mindfulness of the body is. I get what mindfulness of death means but not of body.
Namo Tassa Bhagavato Arahato Sammā Sambuddhassa
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SDC
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Re: 📍 On Kāyagatāsati (Week of 1/9/2022)

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mjaviem wrote: Tue Jan 11, 2022 8:25 pm I don't know what mindfulness of the body is. I get what mindfulness of death means but not of body.
So the goal for the study group this week is to try and make use of these selections as context for the more comprehensive suttas we will be looking at next week. What I think we have in the OP are great examples of where to apply the instructions as they get more specific. What I’ve gathered from these suttas is that mindfulness is about recollecting what is most accurate, and setting up the understanding so that that aspect is given priority and remembered as most important for relinquishment. Many of the suttas this week, when it comes to mindfulness of the body, stress seeing the unattractive as fundamental to attractive. To not forget what the body is made of and what it is subject to. I think the suttas for next week will make things even clearer.
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
pegembara
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Re: 📍 On Kāyagatāsati (Week of 1/9/2022)

Post by pegembara »

SDC wrote: Tue Jan 11, 2022 12:12 pm
pegembara wrote: Mon Jan 10, 2022 2:12 am Closely related to kayagasati is maranasati, I feel.
Definitely not as boring as just plain old anapasati!
Indeed they all seem to be approaching the exact same realization. I can’t find the account in the suttas of those monks who ended up praising death after meditating on the unattractive, but the Vinaya account is more complete here. Interestingly after all of those monks are killed or commit suicide as a result of misapplying the perception of unattractive, the Buddha instructs the other bhikkhus to practice mindfulness of breathing culminating (as always) in this insight:
When breathing in, he trains in contemplating impermanence; when breathing out, he trains in contemplating impermanence. When breathing in, he trains in contemplating fading away; when breathing out, he trains in contemplating fading away. When breathing in, he trains in contemplating ending; when breathing out, he trains in contemplating ending. When breathing in, he trains in contemplating relinquishment; when breathing out, he trains in contemplating relinquishment.
So it seems to be a matter of intensity, death being the most, breathing the least, body as unattractive somewhere in the middle. In the end they all have to do with the body.
Apparently, there is a sutta where the Buddha came out of retreat to find the number of bhikkhus depleted and was told that some had arranged to be killed by assassins.

This was the result of asubha meditation, not maranasati, that resulted in aversion instead of dispassion.
IMO maranasati is more than just mindfulness of the body. It includes the mind - resulting in dispassion, relinquishment and giving everything back(patinassaga)...the 4th tetrad of Anapanasati.

When alive we cannot let go, when dying there is nothing we can hold on to. Not even to our breath which is considered body too?
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
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Re: 📍 On Kāyagatāsati (Week of 1/9/2022)

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pegembara wrote: Tue Jan 11, 2022 11:44 pm
SDC wrote: Tue Jan 11, 2022 12:12 pm
pegembara wrote: Mon Jan 10, 2022 2:12 am Closely related to kayagasati is maranasati, I feel.
Definitely not as boring as just plain old anapasati!
Indeed they all seem to be approaching the exact same realization. I can’t find the account in the suttas of those monks who ended up praising death after meditating on the unattractive, but the Vinaya account is more complete here. Interestingly after all of those monks are killed or commit suicide as a result of misapplying the perception of unattractive, the Buddha instructs the other bhikkhus to practice mindfulness of breathing culminating (as always) in this insight:
When breathing in, he trains in contemplating impermanence; when breathing out, he trains in contemplating impermanence. When breathing in, he trains in contemplating fading away; when breathing out, he trains in contemplating fading away. When breathing in, he trains in contemplating ending; when breathing out, he trains in contemplating ending. When breathing in, he trains in contemplating relinquishment; when breathing out, he trains in contemplating relinquishment.
So it seems to be a matter of intensity, death being the most, breathing the least, body as unattractive somewhere in the middle. In the end they all have to do with the body.
Apparently, there is a sutta where the Buddha came out of retreat to find the number of bhikkhus depleted and was told that some had arranged to be killed by assassins.

This was the result of asubha meditation, not maranasati, that resulted in aversion instead of dispassion.
IMO maranasati is more than just mindfulness of the body. It includes the mind - resulting in dispassion, relinquishment and giving everything back(patinassaga)...the 4th tetrad of Anapanasati.

When alive we cannot let go, when dying there is nothing we can hold on to. Not even to our breath which is considered body too?
Hi pegembara,

Yes that is the story I linked (from the vinaya), and as I mentioned, they began praising death after meditating on the unattractive (asubha). There were suicides and murders as a result.

Considering anapanasati is under the umbrella of mindfulness of the body, I don’t think there is a distinction. And death just so happens to partake only in that sharpest truth about the body IMO. I think the suttas next week will emphasize this.
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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Re: 📍 On Kāyagatāsati (Week of 1/9/2022)

Post by Bundokji »

I use the mindfulness of the body to distinguish the role of it in understanding the teachings of the Buddha in comparison with other sects. Avoiding the two extremes of hedonism and asceticism through the middle way might help us to have the correct mindset from the outset, hence the directional nature of it.

Hedonism seems to present the body as lacking purpose, hence seeking pleasures is the best use of it. Asceticism sees the body as problematic, an impediment to the holy life, hence should be disciplined through punishing it. The negative connotations in some sutta that relates to the body and to the perversion of perception do not appear descriptive to me, but rather instructive and necessary for progressing in the path. The ability to let go of the body as a main reference seems necessary for meditation, but does not take away from its centrality to the holy life. Without the body, the holy life cannot be fulfilled. Wise people do not appear to be deluded about its nature nor the proper way of using it whether in body, mind or speech.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
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mjaviem
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Re: 📍 On Kāyagatāsati (Week of 1/9/2022)

Post by mjaviem »

SDC wrote: Tue Jan 11, 2022 10:30 pm ... when it comes to mindfulness of the body, stress seeing the unattractive as fundamental to attractive. To not forget what the body is made of and what it is subject to...
Looks good. I'll keep watching what other posters have to say about all this.
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Re: 📍 On Kāyagatāsati (Week of 1/9/2022)

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Bundokji wrote: Wed Jan 12, 2022 6:35 pm I use the mindfulness of the body to distinguish the role of it in understanding the teachings of the Buddha in comparison with other sects. Avoiding the two extremes of hedonism and asceticism through the middle way might help us to have the correct mindset from the outset, hence the directional nature of it.

Hedonism seems to present the body as lacking purpose, hence seeking pleasures is the best use of it. Asceticism sees the body as problematic, an impediment to the holy life, hence should be disciplined through punishing it. The negative connotations in some sutta that relates to the body and to the perversion of perception do not appear descriptive to me, but rather instructive and necessary for progressing in the path. The ability to let go of the body as a main reference seems necessary for meditation, but does not take away from its centrality to the holy life. Without the body, the holy life cannot be fulfilled. Wise people do not appear to be deluded about its nature nor the proper way of using it whether in body, mind or speech.
Agree.

That’s what I’m gathering from these references to “perversion/inversion”, “muddled” and “twisted”. That’s how the body is understood when its actual nature is ignored. When there is no remembrance of the fact that the body is made up of functioning organs, that it persists because of food and breathing, that it is made of elements, and that it is subject to deterioration and breakdown. That is ignored and the attractive nature is put first, resulting in lust, sensuality, suffering, etc.
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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Re: 📍 On Kāyagatāsati (Week of 1/9/2022)

Post by mjaviem »

But in any case, what we would have is mindfulness of unattractiveness and impermanence of the body. Is it what mindfulness of the body or mindfulness directed to the body means?
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Re: 📍 On Kāyagatāsati (Week of 1/9/2022)

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mjaviem wrote: Thu Jan 13, 2022 6:26 pm But in any case, what we would have is mindfulness of unattractiveness and impermanence of the body. Is it what mindfulness of the body or mindfulness directed to the body means?
That seems to be what these suttas are saying. Though the tendency seems to be to keep the understanding twisted, muddled, inverted. That the “natural” tendency is to put the unattractive, impermanence and not-self off to the side; ignore them on behalf of lust and on behalf of ownership. Though the body has its own agenda and that is to be remembered always. The goal seems to be to be vigilant, correct the inversion and set it up rightly; making sure that the true nature of the body is the most evident aspect. That will lead to dispassion and relinquishment.
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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