How Early Buddhism differs from Theravada: a checklist by Bhante Sujato

Textual analysis and comparative discussion on early Buddhist sects and scriptures.
thomaslaw
Posts: 812
Joined: Fri Apr 19, 2013 12:55 am
Location: Australia

Re: How Early Buddhism differs from Theravada: a checklist by Bhante Sujato

Post by thomaslaw »

The main topic/issue of this forum is about 'how Early Buddhism differs from Theravada'. It will be good to point out and discuss the issue regarding the differences between the two traditions.
BrokenBones
Posts: 1785
Joined: Sat Nov 10, 2018 10:20 am

Re: How Early Buddhism differs from Theravada: a checklist by Bhante Sujato

Post by BrokenBones »

thomaslaw wrote: Sat Feb 05, 2022 4:04 am The main topic/issue of this forum is about 'how Early Buddhism differs from Theravada'. It will be good to point out and discuss the issue regarding the differences between the two traditions.
Jhana is a very clear dividing line.
thomaslaw
Posts: 812
Joined: Fri Apr 19, 2013 12:55 am
Location: Australia

Re: How Early Buddhism differs from Theravada: a checklist by Bhante Sujato

Post by thomaslaw »

BrokenBones wrote: Sat Feb 05, 2022 5:02 am
thomaslaw wrote: Sat Feb 05, 2022 4:04 am The main topic/issue of this forum is about 'how Early Buddhism differs from Theravada'. It will be good to point out and discuss the issue regarding the differences between the two traditions.
Jhana is a very clear dividing line.
What is the "very clear dividing line"?
BrokenBones
Posts: 1785
Joined: Sat Nov 10, 2018 10:20 am

Re: How Early Buddhism differs from Theravada: a checklist by Bhante Sujato

Post by BrokenBones »

thomaslaw wrote: Sat Feb 05, 2022 6:25 am
BrokenBones wrote: Sat Feb 05, 2022 5:02 am
thomaslaw wrote: Sat Feb 05, 2022 4:04 am The main topic/issue of this forum is about 'how Early Buddhism differs from Theravada'. It will be good to point out and discuss the issue regarding the differences between the two traditions.
Jhana is a very clear dividing line.
What is the "very clear dividing line"?
😂

You need to read this forum a bit more.

I've already laid out in this thread why I believe the Visuddhimagga (deep) type jhana doesn't fulfil the Buddha's path and since Theravada hitched their wagon to the Visuddhimagga, their 'official' view of jhana has the same failings.

Fortunately, there are many many Theravada monks who don't tow the 'official' line and have directed people to go straight to the suttas for information rather than sectarian works.
asahi
Posts: 2732
Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2020 4:23 pm

Re: How Early Buddhism differs from Theravada: a checklist by Bhante Sujato

Post by asahi »

Pulsar wrote: Fri Feb 04, 2022 5:22 pm
Dearest asahi you had earlier claimed on the thread that Jhana is not a component of a 8-fold path, which I thought was a pretty serious claim. If you thought so you missed the point of the 8-fold path. I am open for discussion but first I like to know why you said what you said?
Can you support it with a sutta from the Pali canon? What monk X, Y, or Z said does not count, in this case,
because 8-fold path was taught by the Buddha. Monks or abhidhammikas cannot change the 4 Noble Truths at will, that also includes Paticca Samuppada.

Pl. satisfy my curiosity, perhaps there is something in the canon that I missed,
and it is an early sutta, that supports what you said? Or else why would you come to a conclusion
like this
The noble eight fold path would necessary include "right" samadhi but not necessarily would include jhana
I am merely asking you to support what you said, with a sutta.
Regards :candle:
Okay , here 2 suttas for your references .
1st is about jhana . 2nd is about right samadhi . The differences can be seen in the suttas .

https://suttacentral.net/sn16.9/en/sujato

At Sāvatthī.
Sāvatthiyaṁ viharati.

“Mendicants, whenever I want, quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unskillful qualities, I enter and remain in the first absorption, which has the rapture and bliss born of seclusion, while placing the mind and keeping it connected.
“Ahaṁ, bhikkhave, yāvade ākaṅkhāmi vivicceva kāmehi vivicca akusalehi dhammehi savitakkaṁ savicāraṁ vivekajaṁ pītisukhaṁ paṭhamaṁ jhānaṁ upasampajja viharāmi.
https://suttacentral.net/an5.113/en/sujato


A mendicant who has five qualities can enter and remain in right immersion.
Pañcahi, bhikkhave, dhammehi samannāgato bhikkhu bhabbo sammāsamādhiṁ upasampajja viharituṁ.
What five?
Katamehi pañcahi?
It’s when a mendicant can endure sights, sounds, smells, tastes, and touches.
Idha, bhikkhave, bhikkhu khamo hoti rūpānaṁ, khamo saddānaṁ, khamo gandhānaṁ, khamo rasānaṁ, khamo phoṭṭhabbānaṁ.
A mendicant who has these five qualities can enter and remain in right immersion.”
Imehi kho, bhikkhave, pañcahi dhammehi samannāgato bhikkhu bhabbo sammāsamādhiṁ upasampajja viharitun”ti.
No bashing No gossiping
User avatar
frank k
Posts: 2247
Joined: Sat Jan 01, 2011 4:55 pm
Contact:

Re: How Early Buddhism differs from Theravada: a checklist by Bhante Sujato

Post by frank k »

Here's a great quote from sujato.
when you have power... facts become optional

https://discourse.suttacentral.net/t/bh ... rdain/3492

There is a constant temptation to overinterpret ancient texts, to read as much meaning as possible into each statement. On this forum, I have repeatedly advocated for the principle of least meaning; that is, we should read each context as simply as possible, interpreting it as little as possible, and staying close to plain, literal meanings.

...

I found, to my dismay, that many monks simply dismissed any research or arguments made by myself or by others. They didn’t respond to them or refute them, they just ignored them. I learned a hard fact of life: when you have power and wealth and property and prestige, facts become optional.
Wouldn't it be great if he would follow his own warning?
And actually explain how the suttas justify his jhana interpretation?
www.lucid24.org/sted : ☸Lucid24.org🐘 STED definitions
www.audtip.org/audtip: 🎙️🔊Audio Tales in Pāli: ☸Dharma and Vinaya in many languages
User avatar
frank k
Posts: 2247
Joined: Sat Jan 01, 2011 4:55 pm
Contact:

Re: How Early Buddhism differs from Theravada: a checklist by Bhante Sujato

Post by frank k »

BrokenBones wrote: Sat Feb 05, 2022 8:44 am ...
Fortunately, there are many many Theravada monks who don't tow the 'official' line and have directed people to go straight to the suttas for information rather than sectarian works.
Unfortunately, there are corrupt monks like Sujato who direct people straight to the suttas, but to HIS sutta translations which happen to match the wrong jhana redefinition of LBT Theravada, without any explanation or justification on how, why, this amazing 'coincidence' is possible.
www.lucid24.org/sted : ☸Lucid24.org🐘 STED definitions
www.audtip.org/audtip: 🎙️🔊Audio Tales in Pāli: ☸Dharma and Vinaya in many languages
Pulsar
Posts: 2641
Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2019 6:52 pm

Re: How Early Buddhism differs from Theravada: a checklist by Bhante Sujato

Post by Pulsar »

V. Sujato writes in the checklist
Not-self is one of the Buddha’s cardinal doctrines, and all Buddhist schools teach it in one way or another. The Theravada particularly emphasized this teaching, and it seems they did so in competition with another of the ancient Buddhist schools, the Puggalavada.
Thanks OP, I was unaware of the politics involved.
He further writes:
The Puggalavadins taught that, while there was indeed no “self”, there was however a “person” (puggala). For them, this was a way to reconcile the teachings of not-self with the experience of personal identity. The Theravadins dismissed this as a distinction without a difference, amounting to nothing less than a rejection of the foundations of the Buddha’s teachings.
The Pudgalavadin opinion makes sense to me. According to Theravadins Buddha would have been simply a bunch of aggregates? and nothing more than that?
and when we spread Metta, Karuna, Mudita, there are never any persons receiving such, just bunches of ever renewing aggregates, are the recipients? right?
Thank you V. Sujato for this.
The checklist points out
The refutation of the Puggalavada is the first and longest of the debated points in the Abhidhamma book Kathāvatthu, which shows the significance ascribed by the Theravadins to this debate. It is likely that the core of this argument was established by none other than Moggaliputtatissa, the ideological father of the Theravada, as a response to what he felt was an urgent threat to the core understanding of the Dhamma.
Was Moggaliputtatissa the author of DN 22 and MN 10? Does anyone know?
The checklist continued
The Theravadin insistence on not-self, however, extends far beyond this one dialogue, and at times it borders on an anxiety or insecurity. The entire Abhidhamma project, with its relentless analysis and uncompromising refusal to truck with conventional notions of a “person”, is infused with this spirit. Many of the specific points that follow stem from this overly defensive tendency.
This is surprising! Theravadin insistence on not-self. Buddha kept silent when asked "Is there a self or not"? The abhidhamma project that deviated from the teachings of the Buddha? thanks for pointing it out again.
We need more monastics like V. Sujato, who are not afraid to speak up.
With love :candle:
PS Has anyone read the "Reality of the Indeterminate Self" by Leonard Priestley or the "Literature Of the Personalists Of Early Buddhism"? Pl read these and make up your own mind.
User avatar
Ceisiwr
Posts: 22409
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Location: Wales

Re: How Early Buddhism differs from Theravada: a checklist by Bhante Sujato

Post by Ceisiwr »

Pulsar wrote: Sun Feb 06, 2022 9:29 pm The Pudgalavadin opinion makes sense to me. According to Theravadins Buddha would have been simply a bunch of aggregates? and nothing more than that?
and when we spread Metta, Karuna, Mudita, there are never any persons receiving such, just bunches of ever renewing aggregates, are the recipients? right?
Thank you V. Sujato for this.
The checklist points out
What is this "person"?
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
Pulsar
Posts: 2641
Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2019 6:52 pm

Re: How Early Buddhism differs from Theravada: a checklist by Bhante Sujato

Post by Pulsar »

Pudgalavadin was a branch of buddhism which flourished in India from the 3rd century BCE until the 11th century. Its study offers a new perspective in our approach to Buddha's teachings, Every school of Buddhism represents a tradition of interpretation. If we study the early suttas in the light of commentarial and doctrinal elaborations of a single school we restrict ourselves to the perspective of that school.Contexts of other traditions of interpretation helps to illuminate the study,
writes Leonard Priestly in
  • Reality of Indeterminate Self.
Why do some Buddhists interpret "First aggregate" as a physical entity? Why do some interpret the first establishment of mindfulness as a physical entity? Why do they interpret rupa in nama-rupa as a physical entity? influence of tradition???
Buddha has said:
  • “Be my heirs in the teaching, not in material things.”
Buddha was trying to tell the monks not to get hung up on material things. Consider the teaching given to the monks when the monks were scrambling for a share in the material gifts received. Sutta on Putra Mansa was a consequence of such, one of Buddha's most impressive teachings.
Yet some think, Buddha was teaching about consumption of physical food in Putramansa Sutta, SN 12.63??? Traditions limit our exploration into Earliest Buddhism. "How did Buddha's disciples meditate, around the living Buddha?" surely not according to the methods given in VSM. It is impossible to reduce the answer to the question "regarding the person" to a sound bite. Why did Buddha keep silent when Vaccagotta asked him, Is there a person or not?Vacchagota initially thought "this sramana knows Zilch" later he became an Arahant. One's best bet is to read the two publications available on Pudgalavadins, and decide for oneself.  Where Buddha kept silent? 
"fools rush in where angels fear to tread"
With love  :candle:
User avatar
Coëmgenu
Posts: 8151
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:55 pm
Location: Whitby, Canada

Re: How Early Buddhism differs from Theravada: a checklist by Bhante Sujato

Post by Coëmgenu »

Pulsar wrote: Tue Feb 08, 2022 3:17 pmBuddha has said: “Be my heirs in the teaching, not in material things.”
Which is precisely why the material body is not a point of refuge in the Buddhadharma. It is not the self, it is not permanent, it is not blissful. It is to be abandoned. How? Through inquiring into the origination and cessation of the body, the three truths indicated in the previous sentence can be established. If the physical body is never inquired into, there will never be insight into its origination and cessation.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
Pulsar
Posts: 2641
Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2019 6:52 pm

Re: How Early Buddhism differs from Theravada: a checklist by Bhante Sujato

Post by Pulsar »

Coemgenu wrote
If the physical body is never inquired into, there will never be insight into its origination and cessation.
I thought Buddha's teaching was directed at "Origination of mental suffering" not "Origination of physical suffering"
Perhaps I misunderstand?
with love :candle:
Last edited by Pulsar on Tue Feb 08, 2022 3:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Coëmgenu
Posts: 8151
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:55 pm
Location: Whitby, Canada

Re: How Early Buddhism differs from Theravada: a checklist by Bhante Sujato

Post by Coëmgenu »

Pulsar wrote: Tue Feb 08, 2022 3:45 pm Coemgenu wrote
If the physical body is never inquired into, there will never be insight into its origination and cessation.
I thought Buddha's teaching was directed at "Origination of mental suffering" not physical suffering.
Perhaps I misunderstand?
with love :candle:
You would only "misunderstand" insofar as you believed that the physical body was not a very significant source of mental suffering. If you don't believe something like that, then no, you wouldn't misunderstand by writing "I thought Buddha's teaching was directed at 'Origination of mental suffering' not physical suffering."

Aging and sickness are ailments of the physical body as much as the mind. Indeed, they are more often generally thought of as ailments of the physical body than of the mind. Age-related general degeneration of the mental faculties, which happens to some people when they age, is an example of how "aging" and "sickness" can be mental. A disorder like Alzheimer's is an even better but more extreme example. Generally speaking, however, barring these points, the suffering inherit in aging and sickness is generally the suffering of the transformation of the physical body. It ages and gets weathered-looking, "old." It's not young and shiny like it was. You lose a limb, for example, and suffer because you remember how you used to have that limb and did various things with it. You contract cancer and the mind remembers what it was like to not have cancer. "Oh, that my body would be how I wished it to be," i.e. "eternal." Aging and sickness, and even death, is as much of the physical body as it is of the mind. Through Buddhist practice, when there is a deep realization accompanied by the wisdom of the physical body as characterized by selflessness, suffering, and inconstancy, its transformation (i.e. aging and sickness, etc.) will not be a source of mental suffering.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
Pulsar
Posts: 2641
Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2019 6:52 pm

Re: How Early Buddhism differs from Theravada: a checklist by Bhante Sujato

Post by Pulsar »

Coemgenu wrote
You would only "misunderstand" insofar as you believed that the physical body was not a very significant source of mental suffering. If you don't believe something like that, then no, you wouldn't misunderstand by writing "I thought Buddha's teaching was directed at "Origination of mental suffering" not physical suffering."
Thanks... it is true that travails of the physical body such as cancer, ulcers, immune diseases, can lead to mental suffering. But Buddha never addressed these issues.
With love :candle:
User avatar
Coëmgenu
Posts: 8151
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:55 pm
Location: Whitby, Canada

Re: How Early Buddhism differs from Theravada: a checklist by Bhante Sujato

Post by Coëmgenu »

When the Buddha defines aging, and he says, "...what is aging? Whatever aging, decrepitude, brokenness, graying, wrinkling, decline of life-force, weakening of the faculties of the various beings in this or that group of beings, that is called aging," do you think that "graying" and "wrinkling" do not refer to the physical body aging?
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
Post Reply