How Early Buddhism differs from Theravada: a checklist by Bhante Sujato

Textual analysis and comparative discussion on early Buddhist sects and scriptures.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: How Early Buddhism differs from Theravada: a checklist by Bhante Sujato

Post by Ceisiwr »

Coëmgenu wrote: Thu Feb 10, 2022 9:49 pm
Pulsar wrote: Thu Feb 10, 2022 8:21 pmV. Sujato in the checklist does say that Arupa samapatthis are extraneous, not relevant to liberation.
Where? Even if he did, it would not be a support for your theories concerning the formless samadhis.
He doesn’t. He says they are found in too many sources to be considered late. He regards them as something that is useful but optional.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Coëmgenu
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Re: How Early Buddhism differs from Theravada: a checklist by Bhante Sujato

Post by Coëmgenu »

I couldn't find it in the checklist either.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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DNS
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Re: How Early Buddhism differs from Theravada: a checklist by Bhante Sujato

Post by DNS »

DhammaWiki page on this booklet:
https://www.dhammawiki.com/index.php?ti ... _Theravada

Doug's Dharma video:

thomaslaw
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Re: How Early Buddhism differs from Theravada: a checklist by Bhante Sujato

Post by thomaslaw »

I wonder which scholar or text *first* states clearly that 'Early Buddhism' in history is not Pali or Theravada Buddhism?
Most of scholars or Theravada Buddhists will simply consider Pali/Theravada Buddhism is or represents Early Buddhism. :thinking:
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Re: How Early Buddhism differs from Theravada: a checklist by Bhante Sujato

Post by DNS »

thomaslaw wrote: Wed Apr 20, 2022 11:49 pm I wonder which scholar or text *first* states clearly that 'Early Buddhism' in history is not Pali or Theravada Buddhism?
Most of scholars or Theravada Buddhists will simply consider Pali/Theravada Buddhism is or represents Early Buddhism. :thinking:
At least as far back as 50 CE with the Sautrāntika school (Suttavāda), but possibly even further back than that to the conflicts at the Third Council around 250 BCE where there may have been some monks or schools of Buddhism opposed to adding the Abhidhamma to the Buddhist scriptures.

In modern times, not sure, perhaps someone in the Thai forest tradition?
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bkmudita
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Re: How Early Buddhism differs from Theravada: a checklist by Bhante Sujato

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There is no unified Early Buddhism exists throughout history, even in Buddha's time, early disciples already differ each other depends on where they based. Different people, different cultures will adapt Gautama's teachings based on their background knowledges and beliefs. People at earlier time like Buddha's time are relatively more segregated and distinguished each other, by blood and cultures, more than anyone can imagine. Slowly they evolved into different traditions and schools and lineages, until today. It is a good effort to inquire the spirit of early Buddhism though, but it has to compromise and live with the contextual cultures and traditions. Without support from traditions, Buddhism will just become some legacy in books. Saying this, maybe the western culture is suitable for a new early Buddhism sect to emerge, if the western culture and poeple can nurture it. Let's hope so!
thomaslaw
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Re: How Early Buddhism differs from Theravada: a checklist by Bhante Sujato

Post by thomaslaw »

Theravada Buddhism is in fact Pali Buddhism or Tamrasatiya Buddhism (one of the four schools of Vibhajyavada tradition), not Early Buddhism (cf. p. 5):
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Pages 2-7 from The Fundamental Teachings of Early Buddhism Choong Mun-keat 2000.pdf
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Pulsar
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Re: How Early Buddhism differs from Theravada: a checklist by Bhante Sujato

Post by Pulsar »

Ceisiwr wrote, when I commented that Bhante Sujato admits that Arupa Samapatthis are not central to liberation,
He doesn’t. He says they are in too many places to be considered late.
Dearest Ceisiwr: can you be kind enough to bring me the passage from his checklist where he says so? I am surprised that I missed that bit of small but but very significant piece of information. This puzzles me,
He says they are found in too many sources to be considered late.
Do you mean to say that B. Sujato implies by this that Arupa samapatthis are central to liberation?'
With love and hugs :candle:
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