🟩 On kāyagatāsati and kāye kāyānupassī, Part 2 (Week of 1/16/22)

Where we gather to focus on a single discourse or thematic collection from the Sutta Piṭaka (new selection every two weeks)
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SDC
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Re: 📍 Sub-session to "On Kāyagatāsati" (Week of 1/16/22)

Post by SDC »

asahi wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 3:49 pm
SDC wrote: Sun Jan 16, 2022 3:29 am SN 47.40"]“

“And what, bhikkhus, is the establishment of mindfulness? Here, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu dwells contemplating the body in the body,
比丘們!什麼是四念住呢?比丘們!這裡,比丘住於在身上隨觀身 。

Fyi if we follow the agama ,

It means , contemplating the bodies alongside while abides on the bodies .
That’s an interesting variation from the agama. I’m curious what is meant by “abides” - “dwelling” maybe?
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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Re: 📍 Sub-session to "On Kāyagatāsati" (Week of 1/16/22)

Post by Coëmgenu »

Isn't that just the Chinese translation of the Pali? It's in modern Chinese, no? If so, it wouldn't be an agama parallel.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
asahi
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Re: 📍 Sub-session to "On Kāyagatāsati" (Week of 1/16/22)

Post by asahi »

SDC wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 3:40 pm
asahi wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 3:49 pm
SDC wrote: Sun Jan 16, 2022 3:29 am SN 47.40"]“

“And what, bhikkhus, is the establishment of mindfulness? Here, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu dwells contemplating the body in the body,
比丘們!什麼是四念住呢?比丘們!這裡,比丘住於在身上隨觀身 。

Fyi if we follow the agama ,

It means , contemplating the bodies alongside while abides on the bodies .
That’s an interesting variation from the agama. I’m curious what is meant by “abides” - “dwelling” maybe?
I checked , my apology , the text was translation from pali not agama .
No parallel . :oops:
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Coëmgenu
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Re: 📍 Sub-session to "On Kāyagatāsati" (Week of 1/16/22)

Post by Coëmgenu »

The agama version is very interesting, because the locativity of the first "kāye" is lost

身身觀住
kāye kāyānupaśyi viharati
(as?/in/at) the body, the body-watcher dwells.

That rendering isn't totally from the Chinese on my own. The Chinese is sufficiently underdetermined that, if you did not already know the context, it would be very difficult to derive the Indic sense from the Sinitic. The rendering instead is based on Piya Tan's work. The locativity of "in the body" or "at the body" is completely obscured in the Chinese, as far as I can see.

You could also say

...bodily, the body-watcher dwells...

that is further from the Pali/Sanskrit but closer to the Chinese, as I see it.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
asahi
Posts: 2732
Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2020 4:23 pm

Re: 📍 Sub-session to "On Kāyagatāsati" (Week of 1/16/22)

Post by asahi »

Here's few different translations if you know chinese of course .


「身身觀念住」
「順身身觀住」
「觀身如身念處」
「於身隨觀身」
「於身觀身而住」
「身住循身觀」
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Re: 📍 Sub-session to "On Kāyagatāsati" (Week of 1/16/22)

Post by SDC »

Coëmgenu wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 3:14 pm The agama version is very interesting, because the locativity of the first "kāye" is lost

身身觀住
kāye kāyānupaśyi viharati
(as?/in/at) the body, the body-watcher dwells.

That rendering isn't totally from the Chinese on my own. The Chinese is sufficiently underdetermined that, if you did not already know the context, it would be very difficult to derive the Indic sense from the Sinitic. The rendering instead is based on Piya Tan's work. The locativity of "in the body" or "at the body" is completely obscured in the Chinese, as far as I can see.

You could also say

...bodily, the body-watcher dwells...

that is further from the Pali/Sanskrit but closer to the Chinese, as I see it.
Thank you for this contribution. I think it aligns with what the suttas in the OP are describing. As if to say, the watching of body is bodily, i.e. it is not towards sensuality, self or permanence.
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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