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anicca
Re: anicca
Just for the record, the different usage of Anicca is demonstrated in the Janthu Sutta.SarathW wrote: ↑Wed Jan 19, 2022 4:35 am Generally monks contemplate on dead bodies to practice the repulsiveness (Asubha) of the body to detach from attachment.
Buddha taught the impermanence (Anicca), unsatisfaction (Dukkha) and the impersonal nature (Anatta) of the five clinging aggregate.
It is more about the mind.
The video is in the Sinhalese language (sorry for that) but you can listen to the monk reciting this Sutta in Pali.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
Where is the Jantu Sutta located, please?
___________
The Blessed One said that one should relentlessly (that means continuously) train to be mindful of the present moment and then, as the present continuously becomes past, and no present moment is ever the same as any other moment, one is mindful of anicca.
Without abandoning lust, aversion and ignorance, in relation to sensations, liberation is impossible. So, in observing the continual change of sensations the path becomes clear.
The Truth of this can only be truly known by direct personal experience.
That experience can be had by meditating.
A couple of points regarding any meditation.
Sila, virtue, trying to keep the precepts is very important. Without that any attempt will be continually distracted by disturbing kamma resultants relating to bad past actions and progress will be difficult. It’ll be like one step forward and one step back at best.
When you sit still, which means : ‘without making any intentional movement’ the body will still move according to underlying tendencies but you will be able to notice that as a conditioned change. There is no need to ‘correct’ that movement.
Sitting in a lotus position becomes easy as underlying tendencies are abandoned so there is no need to try to do that. A wall with a cushion at the lower back. A thick folded blanket or something like that about 1 meter square and supports for the left and right knee as one relaxed sits with legs loosely cross legged is good enough. Imagine leaning up against the sloping back of a tree, sitting on a pad of leaves between a couple of big roots for the knees to lean on.
Having sat down, sit still. Then practice anapana, becoming aware of the continual change of each breath, from starting to breath in to the end of the breath to the start of the next breath and so on. Having established an awareness of the in and out breathing, become aware of the sensations that arise, first where the breath touches and then throughout the body, being aware of this happening in the present moment, letting go of each as it is noted.
___________
The Blessed One said that one should relentlessly (that means continuously) train to be mindful of the present moment and then, as the present continuously becomes past, and no present moment is ever the same as any other moment, one is mindful of anicca.
Without abandoning lust, aversion and ignorance, in relation to sensations, liberation is impossible. So, in observing the continual change of sensations the path becomes clear.
The Truth of this can only be truly known by direct personal experience.
That experience can be had by meditating.
A couple of points regarding any meditation.
Sila, virtue, trying to keep the precepts is very important. Without that any attempt will be continually distracted by disturbing kamma resultants relating to bad past actions and progress will be difficult. It’ll be like one step forward and one step back at best.
When you sit still, which means : ‘without making any intentional movement’ the body will still move according to underlying tendencies but you will be able to notice that as a conditioned change. There is no need to ‘correct’ that movement.
Sitting in a lotus position becomes easy as underlying tendencies are abandoned so there is no need to try to do that. A wall with a cushion at the lower back. A thick folded blanket or something like that about 1 meter square and supports for the left and right knee as one relaxed sits with legs loosely cross legged is good enough. Imagine leaning up against the sloping back of a tree, sitting on a pad of leaves between a couple of big roots for the knees to lean on.
Having sat down, sit still. Then practice anapana, becoming aware of the continual change of each breath, from starting to breath in to the end of the breath to the start of the next breath and so on. Having established an awareness of the in and out breathing, become aware of the sensations that arise, first where the breath touches and then throughout the body, being aware of this happening in the present moment, letting go of each as it is noted.
I appreciate how he emphasises the role of virtue and solitude. I’m on a roughly 30 day self retreat and when it has been very quiet and solitary, maybe seeing one or two others moving about on a day, the sensitivity to the subtle phenomena within the mind body phenomenon increases. The importance of not living with the disturbances of imperfect Silas becomes clearer as the noise of remorse quietens.
Velāma Sutta (AN 9:20) more fruitful than any other fruitful gift :
"On one occasion the Blessed One was staying near Sāvatthī in Jeta’s Grove, Anāthapiṇḍika’s monastery. Then Anāthapiṇḍika the householder went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, bowed down to him and sat to one side. As he was sitting there, the Blessed One said to him, “Householder,... "
“If one were to develop even for just a finger-snap the perception of inconstancy, that would be more fruitful than the gift, the great gift, that Velāma the brahman gave, and if one were to feed one person… 100 people consummate in view, and if one were to feed one once-returner… 100 once-returners, and if one were to feed one non-returner… 100 non-returners, and if one were to feed one arahant… 100 arahants, and if one were to feed one Private Buddha… 100 Private Buddhas, and if one were to feed a Tathāgata—a worthy one, rightly self-awakened—and if one were to feed a Saṅgha of monks headed by the Buddha, and if one were to have a dwelling built and dedicated to the Community of the four directions, and if one with a confident mind were to go to the Buddha, Dhamma, & Saṅgha for refuge, and if one with a confident mind were to undertake the training rules—refraining from taking life, refraining from taking what is not given, refraining from sexual misconduct, refraining from lying, refraining from distilled & fermented drinks that cause heedlessness—and if one were to develop even just one whiff of a heart of goodwill.”
"On one occasion the Blessed One was staying near Sāvatthī in Jeta’s Grove, Anāthapiṇḍika’s monastery. Then Anāthapiṇḍika the householder went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, bowed down to him and sat to one side. As he was sitting there, the Blessed One said to him, “Householder,... "
“If one were to develop even for just a finger-snap the perception of inconstancy, that would be more fruitful than the gift, the great gift, that Velāma the brahman gave, and if one were to feed one person… 100 people consummate in view, and if one were to feed one once-returner… 100 once-returners, and if one were to feed one non-returner… 100 non-returners, and if one were to feed one arahant… 100 arahants, and if one were to feed one Private Buddha… 100 Private Buddhas, and if one were to feed a Tathāgata—a worthy one, rightly self-awakened—and if one were to feed a Saṅgha of monks headed by the Buddha, and if one were to have a dwelling built and dedicated to the Community of the four directions, and if one with a confident mind were to go to the Buddha, Dhamma, & Saṅgha for refuge, and if one with a confident mind were to undertake the training rules—refraining from taking life, refraining from taking what is not given, refraining from sexual misconduct, refraining from lying, refraining from distilled & fermented drinks that cause heedlessness—and if one were to develop even just one whiff of a heart of goodwill.”
Householder, the greatest gift is a moment of awareness of anicca ...
What is anicca?
There is sight, sound, smell, taste, tactile sensation, ideas. That is the world.
All in the world inherently decomposes.
What does decay look, sound, smell, taste, feel, ideate like. This is what anicca can be perceived as.
Feelings on the body are often easiest to feel.
Feel, be aware of, be mindful of, the continual change of feelings, sense impressions, sensations, in the present moment and there, this is anicca.
(and that awareness conditions right view etc)
Some may find it easier to be mindful of sounds, like the noise of termites https://soundbible.com/2113-Termites-and-Ants.html
maybe the sound of tinnitus.
Or scents or smells drifting by, or watching the waves and sounds of the ocean coming and going and how that continually changes.
Or the rising and passing of bubbles in a soda bottle (see first post) , not unlike the rising and passing of feelings in the body. When you let go of identifying with the feelings on the body, rather you are IN the body watching the body as opposed to looking from the outside, from the mind, the present moment becomes what presents the feelings as they are with no controller. This is awakening to Anicca true nature.
All the time being alert to the coming and going of thoughts, ideas, opinions, imaginings and the related bodily sensations.
What is anicca?
There is sight, sound, smell, taste, tactile sensation, ideas. That is the world.
All in the world inherently decomposes.
What does decay look, sound, smell, taste, feel, ideate like. This is what anicca can be perceived as.
Feelings on the body are often easiest to feel.
Feel, be aware of, be mindful of, the continual change of feelings, sense impressions, sensations, in the present moment and there, this is anicca.
(and that awareness conditions right view etc)
Some may find it easier to be mindful of sounds, like the noise of termites https://soundbible.com/2113-Termites-and-Ants.html
maybe the sound of tinnitus.
Or scents or smells drifting by, or watching the waves and sounds of the ocean coming and going and how that continually changes.
Or the rising and passing of bubbles in a soda bottle (see first post) , not unlike the rising and passing of feelings in the body. When you let go of identifying with the feelings on the body, rather you are IN the body watching the body as opposed to looking from the outside, from the mind, the present moment becomes what presents the feelings as they are with no controller. This is awakening to Anicca true nature.
All the time being alert to the coming and going of thoughts, ideas, opinions, imaginings and the related bodily sensations.
Some more pondering on the Velama Sutta :
"On one occasion the Blessed One was staying near Sāvatthī in Jeta’s Grove, Anāthapiṇḍika’s monastery. Then Anāthapiṇḍika the householder went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, bowed down to him and sat to one side. As he was sitting there, the Blessed One said to him, “Householder,... "
“If one were to develop even for just a finger-snap the perception of inconstancy, that would be more fruitful than... all the other great gifts one can make.
Imagine that, a mere moment of time perceiving anicca is more precious than any other good deed.
And on his death bed what he chose to say was that all composed things decompose. Again at a most critical moment for humanity he reiterates the importance of anicca.
On his deathbed he spoke to a gathering of Bhikkhus. In the Velama Sutta he spoke to a householder. There can be no doubt that awakening to true Anicca as perceived in a finger-snap {iow in a moment, and which moment? Of course the one moment that only ever exists, the present moment) is key to establishing and developing the path and to maintain progress.
Stretch that moment into a continuity and there is atapi sampajano satima. Good in the beginning middle and end.
So, when The Blessed One summarised the path with : abstain from unwholesome actions, perform wholesome actions and purify the mind, this is the teaching of all the Buddha's, he laid down the simple guide lines for all, monks and householders alike, that is : maintain the precepts, be mindful of anicca (as the greatest good) and continually abandon the underlying tendencies to delight in pleasant feelings, abandon the underlying tendencies to aversion in relation to unpleasant feelings and abandon the underlying tendencies to ignore neutral feelings (all in the present moment) and so purify the mind.
"On one occasion the Blessed One was staying near Sāvatthī in Jeta’s Grove, Anāthapiṇḍika’s monastery. Then Anāthapiṇḍika the householder went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, bowed down to him and sat to one side. As he was sitting there, the Blessed One said to him, “Householder,... "
“If one were to develop even for just a finger-snap the perception of inconstancy, that would be more fruitful than... all the other great gifts one can make.
Imagine that, a mere moment of time perceiving anicca is more precious than any other good deed.
And on his death bed what he chose to say was that all composed things decompose. Again at a most critical moment for humanity he reiterates the importance of anicca.
On his deathbed he spoke to a gathering of Bhikkhus. In the Velama Sutta he spoke to a householder. There can be no doubt that awakening to true Anicca as perceived in a finger-snap {iow in a moment, and which moment? Of course the one moment that only ever exists, the present moment) is key to establishing and developing the path and to maintain progress.
Stretch that moment into a continuity and there is atapi sampajano satima. Good in the beginning middle and end.
So, when The Blessed One summarised the path with : abstain from unwholesome actions, perform wholesome actions and purify the mind, this is the teaching of all the Buddha's, he laid down the simple guide lines for all, monks and householders alike, that is : maintain the precepts, be mindful of anicca (as the greatest good) and continually abandon the underlying tendencies to delight in pleasant feelings, abandon the underlying tendencies to aversion in relation to unpleasant feelings and abandon the underlying tendencies to ignore neutral feelings (all in the present moment) and so purify the mind.
Re: Re:
What would happen if you contemplate something simple and useful such as a good cup for tea? I mean when calm and without remorse or agitation or drowsiness or distrust. Suppose that you start your contemplation accepting right away that this cup is impermanent. If you accept it you may see that it is impermanent in the present, it is already impermanent, broken is already there, so it is an ugly and unwanted fact about it. If in your contemplation you keep the supposition, you might see that it is not interesting any more. Before this supposition, it was a good cup that could serve your need for tea. But since you now notice it can break right now, it's not big deal. Before, it was something good, now that you don't expect it to last, not even for a useful amount of time, it is not interesting. Now if it really breaks you won't be surprised since you weren't expecting it to last so you can say you now see no suffering from it. With the cessation of your interest and expectations about the cup, suffering due to it cannot arise. Now you can see that regardless the state of the cup, being in one piece or shattered in many pieces, it is interesting as long as you find it useful and think it can serve you a purpose. But when you see that it won't satisfy your expectations, it is not interesting any more. So it all depends on how you regard the cup. Is it something valueable or is it unreliable and not worthy of any expectation? Is it subject to vanishing because it will eventually break, turn to dust and be blown away by the wind or is it all about dependance on our expectations about it? How reliable are our expectations? What if we do not make contact with the cup? What if we do? What are the conditions for the arising of the cup? What are the conditions for its cessation? Is it permanent or impermanent? Can we see anicca? Can we see it when we start by supposing anicca?
Ok, enough of silly suppositions for silly contemplations Didn't meant to bother you with this. Better to read the Buddha on the topic of this thread.
SN 22.46 B. Bodhi wrote:...
“When one sees this thus as it really is with correct wisdom, one holds no more views concerning the past. When one holds no more views concerning the past, one holds no more views concerning the future. When one holds no more views concerning the future, one has no more obstinate grasping. When one has no more obstinate grasping, the mind becomes dispassionate towards form, feeling, perception, volitional formations, and consciousness, and is liberated from the taints by nonclinging.
...
SN 22.102 B. Bodhi wrote:...
“And how, bhikkhus, is the perception of impermanence developed and cultivated so that it eliminates all sensual lust, eliminates all lust for existence, eliminates all ignorance, and uproots all conceit ‘I am’? ‘Such is form, such its origin, such its passing away; such is feeling … such is perception … such are volitional formations … such is consciousness, such its origin, such its passing away’: that is how the perception of impermanence is developed and cultivated so that it eliminates all sensual lust, eliminates all lust for existence, eliminates all ignorance, and uproots all conceit ‘I am.’”
...
SN 22.137 Sujato wrote: At Sāvatthī. Sāvatthinidānaṁ. “Mendicants, you should give up desire for what is impermanent. And what is impermanent? Form is impermanent; you should give up desire for it. Feeling … Perception … Choices … Consciousness is impermanent; you should give up desire for it. You should give up desire for what is impermanent.
Namo Tassa Bhagavato Arahato Sammā Sambuddhassa
Re: anicca
Well, it's simple if one takes the cup as meaning a feeling. Also it wouldn't matter if the feeling is good, useful or bad. If there is judgement, dispassion is impossible.
Anicca can be experienced.
If one is equanimously, mindfully in the present moment with attention on a meditation object like the nature of the breath then for that moment the mind inclines towards Truth.
Anicca is Truth, so : the changing nature of The World as experienced via the six sense bases is available to the mind inclined to see it. Then having recognised it all that is needed is to maintain that equanimous, mindful present moment attention wherever one puts attention and '“When one sees this thus as it really is with correct wisdom, one holds no more views concerning the past. When one holds no more views concerning the past, one holds no more views concerning the future. When one holds no more views concerning the future, one has no more obstinate grasping. When one has no more obstinate grasping, the mind becomes dispassionate towards form, feeling, perception, volitional formations, and consciousness, and is liberated from the taints by nonclinging.
...
Ps it becomes clear that a good practice of the virtues is very important to still the mind so mindfulness is easy. With remorse it becomes very difficult to relax into the present
Anicca can be experienced.
If one is equanimously, mindfully in the present moment with attention on a meditation object like the nature of the breath then for that moment the mind inclines towards Truth.
Anicca is Truth, so : the changing nature of The World as experienced via the six sense bases is available to the mind inclined to see it. Then having recognised it all that is needed is to maintain that equanimous, mindful present moment attention wherever one puts attention and '“When one sees this thus as it really is with correct wisdom, one holds no more views concerning the past. When one holds no more views concerning the past, one holds no more views concerning the future. When one holds no more views concerning the future, one has no more obstinate grasping. When one has no more obstinate grasping, the mind becomes dispassionate towards form, feeling, perception, volitional formations, and consciousness, and is liberated from the taints by nonclinging.
...
Ps it becomes clear that a good practice of the virtues is very important to still the mind so mindfulness is easy. With remorse it becomes very difficult to relax into the present
Re: anicca
I wasn't talking about feeling. I was talking more about expecting something from the cup and finding goodness for us and usefulness which is wonderful. But I agree, I'm sure we are moved in some way as soon as we make contact with the cup. We couldn't start expecting something from it if we weren't moved in some way by it. I agree here dispassion is not happening.
I think that yes, it can be seen.
I would add not only during mindfulness of breathing but we should also dwell contemplating impermanence out of faith. I was talking about contemplation of anicca out of faith when I suggested starting supposing it is indeed a reality for the cup.sunnat wrote: ↑Tue Apr 12, 2022 4:22 am ...
If one is equanimously, mindfully in the present moment with attention on a meditation object like the nature of the breath then for that moment the mind inclines towards Truth.
Anicca is Truth, so : the changing nature of The World as experienced via the six sense bases is available to the mind inclined to see it. Then having recognised it all that is needed is to maintain that equanimous, mindful present moment attention wherever one puts attention...
...
Namo Tassa Bhagavato Arahato Sammā Sambuddhassa
.
It might be easier to 'see' anicca in terms of 'experiencing' it.
Immediately upon contact there is feeling. When in the present moment, feeling is experienced.
In the next moment that feeling has changed, in some way, and it is noting that change that is 'experiencing anicca'.
In the next moment there is another change, and so on.
It is the training to maintain right mindfulness in relation to anicca that bears fruit, as opposed to thinking about it.
.
It might be easier to 'see' anicca in terms of 'experiencing' it.
Immediately upon contact there is feeling. When in the present moment, feeling is experienced.
In the next moment that feeling has changed, in some way, and it is noting that change that is 'experiencing anicca'.
In the next moment there is another change, and so on.
It is the training to maintain right mindfulness in relation to anicca that bears fruit, as opposed to thinking about it.
.
Re: anicca
Yes, to realize anicca we must practise and 'see' by ourselves. We won't realize this truth by merely thinking and guessing. I agree.
Yes, it's all about the present.
What I've been saying throughout this thread is that I believe we don't need to wait in order to see anicca. I believe that anicca is in the present and can be seen without delay. Of course an ordinary person like me don't see it. Waiting to see how things don't last is useful to "get into the mood", or to be "prepared" for this truth. Still, I don't think anicca is realized by waiting. I believe waiting and see how everything changes is only part of the training.
Yes, it is important to notice how a feeling that have arisen vanishes. Why is it important? Because it is connected with desire. When we see a feeling disappear we can see craving dissapear. If we see that craving is tied to feeling we are closer to see craving will never last and this without the need to wait. Like the cup in the previous post, it doesn't matter whether it is in one piece or shattered, it doesn't matter if craving is present or have vanished already, we know impermanence by simply seeing it's in the nature of things to end. We see how craving is conditioned to the presence of feeling. What is left about the cup when there is no more craving for it and clinging to it? When we see craving is dependently originated, what can we say about the permanence of the cup?
I agree but I believe that right view comes first. Having an initial understanding it's like having a map (borrowing the analogy from A. Buddhadasa). You develop the path by walking, but you first need a map to reach the destination.
Namo Tassa Bhagavato Arahato Sammā Sambuddhassa
"In the next moment that feeling has changed" - when I say in the next moment I mean in the very next present moment following the preceding "present moment [where] feeling is experienced". I don't mean any waiting. Anicca is a continuous series of different events. Everything known of The World is in a continual unceasing flux. Either there is mindful awareness of that change or there is not.
"Bhikkhu (a Bhikkhu (to whom this is directed) is a renunciate devoted to the virtues and undergoing instructions), that one shall here and now make an end of suffering by abandoning the underlying tendency to lust for pleasant...feeling, by abolishing the underlying tendency to aversion for painful...feeling, by extirpating the underlying tendency to ignorance in regard to neither-painful-nor-pleasant..feeling, by abandoning ignorance and arousing true knowledge - this is possible.
Seeing thus, bhikkhus, a well-taught noble disciple becomes disenchanted with (the senses), disenchanted with forms, disenchanted with (sense) -consciousness, disenchanted with (sense) -contact, disenchanted with (sense) -feeling, disenchanted with (sense) -craving.
Being disenchanted, he becomes dispassionate. Through dispassion [his mind] is liberated."
So, walking the path is first about developing qualities of renunciation and harmlessness, making the right efforts and developing right mindfulness along with right view which naturally follows if one develops according to instructions. This again is to be experienced. It is not arrived at by repeating or reading the words of The Buddha. Finding, associating with and discussing the Dhamma with 'admirable friends' is important to get established in and developing the path but walking it is a personal experience.
"Bhikkhu (a Bhikkhu (to whom this is directed) is a renunciate devoted to the virtues and undergoing instructions), that one shall here and now make an end of suffering by abandoning the underlying tendency to lust for pleasant...feeling, by abolishing the underlying tendency to aversion for painful...feeling, by extirpating the underlying tendency to ignorance in regard to neither-painful-nor-pleasant..feeling, by abandoning ignorance and arousing true knowledge - this is possible.
Seeing thus, bhikkhus, a well-taught noble disciple becomes disenchanted with (the senses), disenchanted with forms, disenchanted with (sense) -consciousness, disenchanted with (sense) -contact, disenchanted with (sense) -feeling, disenchanted with (sense) -craving.
Being disenchanted, he becomes dispassionate. Through dispassion [his mind] is liberated."
So, walking the path is first about developing qualities of renunciation and harmlessness, making the right efforts and developing right mindfulness along with right view which naturally follows if one develops according to instructions. This again is to be experienced. It is not arrived at by repeating or reading the words of The Buddha. Finding, associating with and discussing the Dhamma with 'admirable friends' is important to get established in and developing the path but walking it is a personal experience.
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justindesilva
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Re:
The whole of the message of budda lies in anicca dukka anatma.sunnat wrote: ↑Tue Apr 12, 2022 8:14 pm .
It might be easier to 'see' anicca in terms of 'experiencing' it.
Immediately upon contact there is feeling. When in the present moment, feeling is experienced.
In the next moment that feeling has changed, in some way, and it is noting that change that is 'experiencing anicca'.
In the next moment there is another change, and so on.
It is the training to maintain right mindfulness in relation to anicca that bears fruit, as opposed to thinking about it.
.
Anicca is impermanence as the whole of the universe, galaxies, solar systems and planets keep on moving and thus cannot escape momentary changes , we as part and parcel of the universe become anicca or impermanent.
How we become impermanent is by becoming a part of that momentarily moving system within this solar system.
Within such motion we undergo changes as apo, tejo, vayo & patavi which is felt as vedana in manifestation of energy to sustain dynamic equilibrium.
As this manifestation energy is part and parcel of a whole system or the universe , we as minute particles of beings cannot become personnel or be singled out. As such the participation of a being is impersonally or is anatma as rupa or form, vedana or feeling, sangna or signal , sankara or creation, vingna or being mindful .
All as anicca dukka anatma describes a universal reaction moment to moment.
Eightfold noble path as beings is the most fruitful way to face anicca, dukka , anatma.