Ok,, fair enough.
This many formed cosmos is known through the functioning internal sense organs.
How do you say that a person directly knows, sees, perceives etc anicca. How would you describe that experience. What are its qualities or nature's.
anicca
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Re:
Damma cakka pavattana is the explanation of anicca,dukka, anatma. Not satisfied with dammacakkapavattana sutta lord budda went on further to explain impersonel manner or anatma with anatta lakkana sutta.
Lord budda as siddhartha observed a sick man, old person and an ascetic to identify impernanence. He after kama sukallikanun yoga experienced as a royal then left lay life to experience and experienced extreme suffering by starving for months and living in extreme cold and heat. Later realising the middle path with anatta, dukka anatma explained the eightfold noble path with paticca samuppada.
In fact the damma of cause and effect and anatma, dukka , anatma is all contained in paticcasamuppada and eight fold noblepath is the path to end all.
anicca
Consider this :
"Once you've no reverberation, like a broken gong, then Nibbana have you realised : wars of words, for you, are gone" - 134.
reverberation
(technically : the persistence of a sound after the sound is made) is a good indicator of having realised nibbana. If there is reverberation after a feeling there is clinging.
Look again at the video of the bubbling tar at the La Brae tar pit while at the same time being aware of the feelings within the mind body phenomenon.
If your feelings follow the bubbles rising and passing, rising and passing you now have experienced anicca in real time. You have found the path. All you now have to do is to maintain that awareness of change, as well as of course the other basics like keeping sila so as not to create and recreate reverberations. A time will come when there is stillness
"Once you've no reverberation, like a broken gong, then Nibbana have you realised : wars of words, for you, are gone" - 134.
reverberation
(technically : the persistence of a sound after the sound is made) is a good indicator of having realised nibbana. If there is reverberation after a feeling there is clinging.
Look again at the video of the bubbling tar at the La Brae tar pit while at the same time being aware of the feelings within the mind body phenomenon.
If your feelings follow the bubbles rising and passing, rising and passing you now have experienced anicca in real time. You have found the path. All you now have to do is to maintain that awareness of change, as well as of course the other basics like keeping sila so as not to create and recreate reverberations. A time will come when there is stillness
Re: anicca
SN 56.8 Bodhi wrote: “Bhikkhus, do not reflect in an evil unwholesome way: ‘The world is eternal’ or ‘The world is not eternal’; or ‘The world is finite’ or ‘The world is infinite’; or ‘The soul and the body are the same’ or ‘The soul is one thing, the body is another’; or ‘The Tathagata exists after death,’ or ‘The Tathagata does not exist after death,’ or ‘The Tathagata both exists and does not exist after death,’ or ‘The Tathagata neither exists nor does not exist after death.’ For what reason? Because, bhikkhus, this reflection is unbeneficial, irrelevant to the fundamentals of the holy life, and does not lead to revulsion, to dispassion, to cessation, to peace, to direct knowledge, to enlightenment, to Nibbāna.
“When you reflect, bhikkhus, you should reflect: ‘This is suffering’; you should reflect: ‘This is the origin of suffering’; you should reflect: ‘This is the cessation of suffering’; you should reflect: ‘This is the way leading to the cessation of suffering.’ For what reason? Because, bhikkhus, this reflection is beneficial, relevant to the fundamentals of the holy life, and leads to revulsion, to dispassion, to cessation, to peace, to direct knowledge, to enlightenment, to Nibbāna.
“Therefore, bhikkhus, an exertion should be made to understand: ‘This is suffering.’… An exertion should be made to understand: ‘This is the way leading to the cessation of suffering.’”
SN 22.94 Bodhi wrote: ...
“And what is it, bhikkhus, that the wise in the world agree upon as not existing, of which I too say that it does not exist? Form that is permanent, stable, eternal, not subject to change: this the wise in the world agree upon as not existing, and I too say that it does not exist. Feeling … Perception … Volitional formations … Consciousness that is permanent, stable, eternal, not subject to change: this the wise in the world agree upon as not existing, and I too say that it does not exist.
“That, bhikkhus, is what the wise in the world agree upon as not existing, of which I too say that it does not exist.
“And what is it, bhikkhus, that the wise in the world agree upon as existing, of which I too say that it exists? Form that is impermanent, suffering, and subject to change: this the wise in the world agree upon as existing, and I too say that it exists. Feeling … Perception … Volitional formations … Consciousness that is impermanent, suffering, and subject to change: this the wise in the world agree upon as existing, and I too say that it exists.
“That, bhikkhus, is what the wise in the world agree upon as existing, of which I too say that it exists.
...
SN 24.9 Sujato wrote: At Sāvatthī.
“Mendicants, when what exists, because of grasping what and insisting on what, does the view arise: ‘The cosmos is eternal’?”
“Our teachings are rooted in the Buddha. …”
“When form exists, because of grasping form and insisting on form, the view arises: ‘The cosmos is eternal.’ When feeling … perception … choices … consciousness exists, because of grasping consciousness and insisting on consciousness, the view arises: ‘The cosmos is eternal.’
What do you think, mendicants? Is form permanent or impermanent?”
“Impermanent, sir.” …
“But by not grasping what’s impermanent, suffering, and perishable, would such a view arise?”
“No, sir.”
“When a noble disciple has given up doubt in these six cases, and has given up doubt in suffering, its origin, its cessation, and the practice that leads to its cessation, they’re called a noble disciple who is a stream-enterer, not liable to be reborn in the underworld, bound for awakening.”
SN 22.98 Bodhi wrote: At Savatthi. Sitting to one side, that bhikkhu said to the Blessed One: “Is there, venerable sir, any form, any feeling, any perception, any volitional formations, any consciousness that is permanent, stable, eternal, not subject to change, and that will remain the same just like eternity itself?”
“Bhikkhu, there is no form, no feeling, no perception, no volitional formations, no consciousness that is permanent, stable, eternal, not subject to change, and that will remain the same just like eternity itself.”
Namo Tassa Bhagavato Arahato Sammā Sambuddhassa
Re: anicca
Information is anicca.
We perceiving information with our senses because if it wasn't constantly changing/vibrating/oscilating we couldn't perceiving it.
Information is the change.
If something happened - it's information, if there is no any change - there is no information.
We can perceive things only because they change.
In abhidhamma they call it "kalapas", bites of information ...010001101011... if the mind is calm enough we can see them, hear them, and sense them with the body.
So all we can experiance is this endless ocean of information/anicca. There is nothing we can grasp, it is like a sand, constantly going through our fingers...
We perceiving information with our senses because if it wasn't constantly changing/vibrating/oscilating we couldn't perceiving it.
Information is the change.
If something happened - it's information, if there is no any change - there is no information.
We can perceive things only because they change.
In abhidhamma they call it "kalapas", bites of information ...010001101011... if the mind is calm enough we can see them, hear them, and sense them with the body.
So all we can experiance is this endless ocean of information/anicca. There is nothing we can grasp, it is like a sand, constantly going through our fingers...
We don't live Samsara, Samsara is living us...
"Form, feelings, perceptions, formations, consciousness - don't care about us, we don't exist for them"
"Form, feelings, perceptions, formations, consciousness - don't care about us, we don't exist for them"
Re: anicca
What I struggle the most with is:
- Seeing that no material thing is permanent. You can tell me that the ocean will one day evaporate or will be drastically changed but for me this is just a belief. I will still hold doubts that perhaps it will not and would stay as the ocean for ever. And if not the case it would be the case of the sun. Or of the cosmos.
- I can understand that having consciousness of something, or a particular feeling or a perception or a thought are not permanent. But I think that feeling or perceiving or thinking or cognition in general could be permanent, why not? Perhaps there's a permanent I who will cognize or feel or perceive or think over and over again. Why not?
- Seeing that no material thing is permanent. You can tell me that the ocean will one day evaporate or will be drastically changed but for me this is just a belief. I will still hold doubts that perhaps it will not and would stay as the ocean for ever. And if not the case it would be the case of the sun. Or of the cosmos.
- I can understand that having consciousness of something, or a particular feeling or a perception or a thought are not permanent. But I think that feeling or perceiving or thinking or cognition in general could be permanent, why not? Perhaps there's a permanent I who will cognize or feel or perceive or think over and over again. Why not?
Namo Tassa Bhagavato Arahato Sammā Sambuddhassa
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Re: anicca
Just observe the fact of women losing their beauty
They are aware of inconstancy
Last edited by cappuccino on Wed May 04, 2022 2:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
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knowing anicca
See the waves coming in and you'll see that the ocean is constantly changing. The wind, the sun, the sky, temperature, clouds...
Likewise the internal is seen to be constantly changing. That's anicca.
Likewise the internal is seen to be constantly changing. That's anicca.
Re: anicca
And this permanent I. Does it have a form, feelings, thoughts and intentions? Have you never experienced the absence of thoughts or thinking?mjaviem wrote: ↑Tue May 03, 2022 11:34 pm What I struggle the most with is:
- Seeing that no material thing is permanent. You can tell me that the ocean will one day evaporate or will be drastically changed but for me this is just a belief. I will still hold doubts that perhaps it will not and would stay as the ocean for ever. And if not the case it would be the case of the sun. Or of the cosmos.
- I can understand that having consciousness of something, or a particular feeling or a perception or a thought are not permanent. But I think that feeling or perceiving or thinking or cognition in general could be permanent, why not? Perhaps there's a permanent I who will cognize or feel or perceive or think over and over again. Why not?
Is it those things or not?
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
Re: anicca
I guess I see intentions as permanent. This I seems to be defined by intentions. Something to reflect about and meditate upon. Thank you.
Namo Tassa Bhagavato Arahato Sammā Sambuddhassa
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Re: anicca
Perceiving constancy in the inconstant,
pleasure in the stressful,
self in what's not-self,
attractiveness in the unattractive,
beings, destroyed by wrong-view,
go mad, out of their minds.
Vipallasa Sutta
pleasure in the stressful,
self in what's not-self,
attractiveness in the unattractive,
beings, destroyed by wrong-view,
go mad, out of their minds.
Vipallasa Sutta
Re: anicca
Perceiving permanence by not noticing craving depends upon feeling and feeling upon contact.cappuccino wrote: ↑Fri May 06, 2022 2:51 am Perceiving constancy in the inconstant,
pleasure in the stressful,
self in what's not-self,
attractiveness in the unattractive,
beings, destroyed by wrong-view,
go mad, out of their minds.
Vipallasa Sutta
Perceiving self by not noticing it is simply attachment to the aggregates, whether of a past, present, or future moment, whether of a past, present, or future life.
Namo Tassa Bhagavato Arahato Sammā Sambuddhassa
Knowing and seeing the senses*, sense objects^, sense-consciousness, sense-contact" and whatever feelings, pleasant unpleasant or neither unpleasant nor pleasant born of sense-contact as constantly changing (anicca) and hence not-I (anatta), the latent tendency (anusaya) of ignorance fades and knowledge arises. iow the perception of anicca of all composed things leads to true knowledge.
* senses : the six sense organs of eyes, ears, nose, tongue, body and mind
^ sense objects : the seen, sounds, smells, tastes, tangibles and thoughts (ideas, imaginations, views etc)
" sense-contact : the meeting of a sense organ, its object and the arisen sense consciousness
* senses : the six sense organs of eyes, ears, nose, tongue, body and mind
^ sense objects : the seen, sounds, smells, tastes, tangibles and thoughts (ideas, imaginations, views etc)
" sense-contact : the meeting of a sense organ, its object and the arisen sense consciousness