From the classical position only, in which nibbana is not self nor consciousness, why isn't nibbana self?

Exploring the Dhamma, as understood from the perspective of the ancient Pali commentaries.
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cappuccino
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Re: From the classical position only, in which nibbana is not self nor consciousness, why isn't nibbana self?

Post by cappuccino »

pegembara wrote: Fri May 26, 2023 3:08 am There is an island, an island which you cannot go beyond.
the Island,
the Refuge, the Beyond.
~ S 43.1-44
auto
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Re: From the classical position only, in which nibbana is not self nor consciousness, why isn't nibbana self?

Post by auto »

pegembara wrote: Fri May 26, 2023 3:08 am "There is that" :namaste:

“The Unborn”, “The Deathless” ,”The Unconditioned”, "The Other Shore", "The Island"

There is an island, an island which you cannot go beyond. It is a place of nothingness, a place of nonpossession and of nonattachment. It is the total end of death and decay, and this is why I call it Nibbāna.

In terms of direct experience, this comes the closest. Everything else is what someone else says nibbana is.
"This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications, the relinquishment of all acquisitions, the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Nibbana." — AN 3.32
from mulaka sutta there is a term
copy paste
nibbānapariyosānā

from that the term osāna -
https://dictionary.sutta.org/browse/o/os%C4%81na/ wrote:PTS Pali-English dictionary The Pali Text Society's Pali-English dictionary
Osāna,(nt.) [fr.osāpeti] stopping,ceasing; end,finish,conclusion S.V,79 (read paṭikkamosāna),177,344; Sn.938 (Page 171)
osāpeti,
https://dictionary.sutta.org/browse/o/os%C4%81peti/ wrote:PTS Pali-English dictionary The Pali Text Society's Pali-English dictionary

Osāpeti,[With Morris,J.P.T.S.1887,158 Caus.of ava + sā,Sk.avasāyayati (cp.P.avaseti,oseti),but by MSS.& Pāli grammarians taken as Caus.of sṛ: sarāpeti contracted to sāpeti,thus ultimately the same as Sk.sārayati = P.sāreti (thus vv.ll.)
sāreti,
https://dictionary.sutta.org/browse/s/s%C4%81reti/ wrote:Concise Pali-English Dictionary by A.P. Buddhadatta Mahathera
sāreti:[sar + e] reminds; leads; makes move along.
In this sutta is the same term sara(+saṅkappā)
https://suttacentral.net/sn35.96/en/sujato?layout=sidebyside&reference=none&notes=asterisk&highlight=false&script=latin wrote:When a mendicant sees a sight with the eye, bad, unskillful phenomena arise: memories and thoughts prone to fetters.
Idha, bhikkhave, bhikkhuno cakkhunā rūpaṁ disvā uppajjanti pāpakā akusalā sarasaṅkappā saṁyojaniyā.
sarasankappa - mindfulness and aspiration
https://dictionary.sutta.org/browse/s/sara/ wrote:PTS Pali-English dictionary The Pali Text Society's Pali-English dictionary

Sara,4 (adj.) [fr.sarati2] remembering M.I,453; A.II,21; DA.I,106.°saṅkappa mindfulness and aspiration M.I,453; III,132; S.IV,76,137,190; Nett 16.(Page 697)
So, if seeing a sight with the eye, and the dhamma rooted in desire arises(memories and thoughts prone to fetters).. then the parinibbana is this below,
wrote:Suppose that mendicant doesn’t tolerate them but gives them up, gets rid of them, eliminates them, and obliterates them. They should understand:
Tañce bhikkhu nādhivāseti pajahati vinodeti byantīkaroti anabhāvaṁ gameti, veditabbametaṁ, bhikkhave, bhikkhunā:
‘My skillful qualities are not declining.
‘na parihāyāmi kusalehi dhammehi’.
For this is what the Buddha calls non-decline.’
Aparihānañhetaṁ vuttaṁ bhagavatāti …pe….
The island is a term for achieving non-decline of skillful qualities(i believe).
https://suttacentral.net/sn35.238/en/sujato?layout=sidebyside&reference=none&notes=asterisk&highlight=false&script=latin wrote: ‘The far shore, a sanctuary free of peril’ is a term for extinguishment.
Pārimaṁ tīraṁ khemaṁ appaṭibhayanti kho, bhikkhave, nibbānassetaṁ adhivacanaṁ.
zan
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Re: From the classical position only, in which nibbana is not self nor consciousness, why isn't nibbana self?

Post by zan »

auto wrote: Wed May 24, 2023 2:55 pm
zan wrote: Wed May 24, 2023 5:02 am
auto wrote: Sun May 07, 2023 3:35 pm ...
Now, what you were saying? who are charlatans?
Assuming you're promoting the idea that something survives parinibbana as a kind of eternal citta or something, you're the charlatan.
There's defilement free state beyond rebirth. Sutta says they who have gone beyond understand rightly.
https://dictionary.sutta.org/browse/p/p%C4%81rag%C5%AB/ wrote: Concise Pali-English Dictionary by A.P. Buddhadatta Mahathera

pāragū:[adj.] gone beyond; passed; crossed.
Pali-Dictionary Vipassana Research Institute

pāragū:and (pārago) One who has crossed to the other side,who has passed beyond ,escaped from; one who is accomplished or versed in
Also if you keep saying stupid things, i will lash out at some point.

In meditation, if want make breakthrough it is a must to know the unchanging thing and go for it.
No, there isn't anything beyond rebirth. Here's a huge number of quotes that demonstrate this viewtopic.php?t=33668

And, go ahead, lash out. Making threats is just embarrassing yourself, and whatever lashing out you may do will just embarrass you further.
Last edited by zan on Mon May 29, 2023 2:37 am, edited 3 times in total.
Assume all of my words on dhamma could be incorrect. Seek an arahant for truth.


"If we base ourselves on the Pali Nikayas, then we should be compelled to conclude that Buddhism is realistic. There is no explicit denial anywhere of the external world. Nor is there any positive evidence to show that the world is mind-made or simply a projection of subjective thoughts. That Buddhism recognizes the extra-mental existence of matter and the external world is clearly suggested by the texts. Throughout the discourses it is the language of realism that one encounters.
-Y. Karunadasa
zan
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Joined: Sun Aug 28, 2016 1:57 pm

Re: From the classical position only, in which nibbana is not self nor consciousness, why isn't nibbana self?

Post by zan »

auto wrote: Wed May 24, 2023 3:37 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Wed May 24, 2023 3:11 pm
auto wrote: Wed May 24, 2023 2:55 pm Also if you keep saying stupid things, i will lash out at some point.
Your attitude is appalling.
you don't make sense here.
Ceisiwr is the most proper Buddhist I've ever encountered on the internet. He and I disagree on almost everything. I've gotten frustrated at him, and been slightly rude at times, yet he has almost always been a perfect example of how a Buddhist should conduct themselves, even despite me failing at times. I have a great deal of respect for him. And this is despite disagreeing on just about everything. His conduct and intelligence are the reason. They are so strong, that they completely override my personal feelings about our disagreements. So, believe him when he points out that threatening to "lash out" is appalling from a Buddhist perspective.
Assume all of my words on dhamma could be incorrect. Seek an arahant for truth.


"If we base ourselves on the Pali Nikayas, then we should be compelled to conclude that Buddhism is realistic. There is no explicit denial anywhere of the external world. Nor is there any positive evidence to show that the world is mind-made or simply a projection of subjective thoughts. That Buddhism recognizes the extra-mental existence of matter and the external world is clearly suggested by the texts. Throughout the discourses it is the language of realism that one encounters.
-Y. Karunadasa
auto
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Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:02 pm

Re: From the classical position only, in which nibbana is not self nor consciousness, why isn't nibbana self?

Post by auto »

zan wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 2:28 am No, there isn't anything beyond rebirth. Here's a huge number of quotes that demonstrate this viewtopic.php?t=33668

And, go ahead, lash out. Making threats is just embarrassing yourself, and whatever lashing out you may do will just embarrass you further.
Having greed for something, and then experience cessation of that greed = you have experienced nibbana. It is beyond rebirth; you then have right view as a factor of the 8 fold path which when developed will lead to the cessation of sensual pleasure(kāma) or feeling or kamma etc.
If you not have right view, you are compelled to form attabhava which ripen in the attachment and in the future if that attabhava is present, you experience sensual pleasure..
https://suttacentral.net/an3.55/en/sujato?layout=sidebyside&reference=none&notes=asterisk&highlight=false&script=latin wrote: When you experience the ending of greed, hate, and delusion without anything left over,

that’s how extinguishment is apparent in the present life, immediately effective, inviting inspection, relevant, so that sensible people can know it for themselves.”
https://dictionary.sutta.org/browse/a/anavasesa/ wrote: Concise Pali-English Dictionary by A.P. Buddhadatta Mahathera

anavasesa:[adj.] without any remainder; complete.
Having experienced nibbana(absence of greed..), makes you eligible to develop the path to nibbana. Growing in power.

Where there is any desire, clinging for form, feeling.. then the satta is spoken of(satta sutta). By feeling a feeling there develops attabhava simultaneously. Now, if you have the right view beyond rebirth then the attabhava won't ripen in attachment but instead the path fruit is attained, experienced.
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