Question about "luminous mind" in Thai Forest Buddhism

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xabir
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Re: Question about "luminous mind" in Thai Forest Buddhism

Post by xabir »

auto wrote: Sat May 14, 2022 4:58 pm
xabir wrote: Sat May 14, 2022 2:23 am Also in anatta, a 'Knowing' that could stand alone besides the seen, heard, smelled is deconstructed and seen through.

http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/searc ... vani%20Geo

There is only sound
Geovani Geo wrote:

We hear a sound. The immediate deeply inbuilt conditioning says, "hearing ". But there is a fallacy there. There is only sound. Ultimately, no hearer and no hearing. The same with all other senses. A centralized, or expanded, or zero-dimensional inherent perceiver or aware-er is an illusion.

Thusness/John Tan:

Very good.

Means both stanza is clear.
In hearing, no hearer.
In hearing, only sound. No hearing.
Labels: Anatta, Geovani Geo 0 comments | |
What about pure mind? there is an actual layer(clinging aggregates). Deconstructing awareness seem off, since one need tag the true mind instead of the clinging aggregates. Clinging aggregates remain intact.
surangama wrote: Your bodies and minds are just appearances
within the wonderful, bright and pure Profound Mind.
..
‘(Mind’s) dimness creates (dull) emptiness and both, in
the darkness, unite with it to become form. The mingling of
form with false thinking causes the latter to take the shape of
a body, stirred by accumulated causes within and drawn to
externals without. Such inner disturbance is mistaken for the
nature of mind, hence the false view of a mind dwelling in the
physical body and the failure to realize that this body as well
as external mountains, rivers, space and the great earth are
but phenomena within the wondrous bright True Mind.
clinging aggregates,
https://suttacentral.net/mn44/en/sujato?layout=sidebyside&reference=none&notes=asterisk&highlight=false&script=latin wrote:“Visākha, the Buddha said that these five grasping aggregates are identity.
“Pañca kho ime, āvuso visākha, upādānakkhandhā sakkāyo vutto bhagavatā,
That is: form, feeling, perception, choices, and consciousness.
seyyathidaṁ—rūpupādānakkhandho, vedanupādānakkhandho, saññupādānakkhandho,
(based on surangama sutra quote)how do you get rid of the false view about the mind dwelling in the body? it doesn't suggest that the perceiver is an illusion, but because of dull emptiness there is the misperception of a perceiver in the body.
Buddha never taught an unchanging standalone mind.

I am surprised you quoted Shurangama Sutra since this is a Theravadin forum, but since you quoted it, I will like to refer you to two articles:

Master Hui Lu's commentary on Shurangama Sutra: http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2012/ ... ma_18.html

Zen Master Dogen's comments about Shurangama Sutra halfway down the article as commented by Zen teacher Shohaku Okumura: http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2018/ ... sutra.html


In both cases, they refuted eternalist interpretations of that sutra.

It is very easy to fall into eternalism on cursory reading of that sutra.


Realizing true mind is just the beginning realization, the I AM of http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/ ... ience.html


The realization of anatman is that even the true mind is empty.

I wrote recently elsewhere:

http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2022/ ... nd-vs.html

It must result in the realization of Bodhidharma and his student -- the realization that there never was a Mind!
This realization:
http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2018/ ... harma.html
"If one accepts that there is no mind, it must follow that there is no seeing, hearing, feeling, and knowing. Say: how can there be any seeing, hearing, feeling, and knowing [without mind]?"
"Though I have no mind, I can ver well [1269b] see and hear and feel and know."
...
"But how could one [even] gain the ability to know that it is no-mind [that sees, hears, feels, and knows]?"
"Just try to find out in every detail: What appearance does mind have? And if it can be apprehended: is [what is apprehended] mind or not? Is [mind] inside or outside, or somewhere in between? As long as one looks for mind in these three locations, one's search will end in failure. Indeed, searching it anywhere will end in failure. That's exactly why it is known as no-mind."
...
"Just be totally aware in all affairs! No-mind is nothing other than practice; there is no other practice. Thus you'll realize that no-mind is everything, and that extinction (nirvana) is nothing other than no-mind."
12
At this, the disciple all at once greatly awakened and realized for the first time that there is no thing apart from mind, and no mind apart from things. All of his actions became utterly free. Having broken through the net of all doubt, he was freed of all obstruction.
...
14
The Reverend then told him: "Among all forms of wisdom, I regard the wisdom of no-mind as the highest. Thus the Vimalakirti sutra says: "Neither having a conscious mind nor mental impressions and processes, he sees through the ignorant and submits those of different creed." Again, the Sutra of the Great Dharma Drum states, "If you know that there is no mind that can be attained, no objects whatsoever are grasped; neither are sincs and meritorious activities, nor life-and-death and nirvana. Indeed, nothing at all can be grasped - not-grasping included!"
15
Then [the disciple again] produces a verse:
In the past, when I was deluded, I held that there is a mind;
But now that I am awakened, there's no mind, that's all!
Though there is no mind, it perceives and is active;
Its perception and activity ever calm, it is pure suchness.
16
And he added:
No mind, no perception, and no activity at all -
No perception, no activity: that's wuwei.
This is the genuine Dharma-realm of the Tathagata,
Different from that of bodhisattvas and pratyeka buddhas.

...

Elsewhere, Bodhidharma said: https://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com ... bodhi.html
Seeing with insight, form is not simply form, because form depends on mind. And, mind is not simply mind, because mind depends on form. Mind and form create and negate each other. … Mind and the world are opposites, appearances arise where they meet. When your mind does not stir inside, the world does not arise outside. When the world and the mind are both transparent, this is the true insight.” (from the Wakeup Discourse)
....

http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2009/ ... tions.html

With the condition of eyes, forms are seen, With the condition of ears, sounds are heard, With the condition of nose, smells are smelled, With the condition of tongue, tastes are tasted, every movement or states are all one's Mind.
Soh Wei Yu
"there is no thing [phenomena] apart from mind, and no mind apart from thing[s] [phenomena]"
Soh Wei Yu


Or as 3rd Karmapa also succinctly put it:

http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2009/ ... nt-of.html
All phenomena are illusory displays of mind.
Mind is no mind--the mind's nature is empty of any entity that is mind
Being empty, it is unceasing and unimpeded,
manifesting as everything whatsoever.
Examining well, may all doubts about the ground be discerned and cut.
Naturally manifesting appearances, that never truly exist, are confused into objects. Spontaneous intelligence, under the power of ignorance, is confused into a self.
By the power of this dualistic fixation, beings wander in the realms of samsaric existence.
May ignorance, the root of confusion, he discovered and cut.
It is not existent--even the Victorious Ones do not see it.
It is not nonexistent--it is the basis of all samsara and nirvana.
This is not a contradiction, but the middle path of unity.
....
Looking at objects, the mind devoid of objects is seen;
Looking at mind, its empty nature devoid of mind is seen;
Looking at both of these, dualistic clinging is self-liberated.
May the nature of mind, the clear light nature of what is, be realised.
Wishing Prayer for the Attainment of the Ultimate Mahamudra
AWAKENINGTOREALITY.COM
Wishing Prayer for the Attainment of the Ultimate Mahamudra
Wishing Prayer for the Attainment of the Ultimate Mahamudra


Soh Wei Yu


Or as Arya Nagarjuna puts it,
“The cognizer perceives the cognizable;
Without the cognizable there is no cognition;
Therefore why do you not admit
That neither object nor subject exists [at all]?
The mind is but a mere name;
Apart from it's name it exists as nothing;
So view consciousness as a mere name;
Name too has no intrinsic nature.
Either within or likewise without,
Or somewhere in between the two,
The conquerors have never found the mind;
So the mind has the nature of an illusion.
The distinctions of colors and shapes,
Or that of object and subject,
Of male, female and the neuter -
The mind has no such fixed forms.
In brief the Buddhas have never seen
Nor will they ever see [such a mind];
So how can they see it as intrinsic nature
That which is devoid of intrinsic nature?
"Entity" is a conceptualization;
Absence of conceptualization is emptiness;
Where conceptualization occurs,
How can there be emptiness?
The mind in terms of perceived and perceiver,
This the Tathagatas have never seen;
Where there is the perceived and perceiver,
There is no enlightenment.
Devoid of characteristics and origination,
Devoid of substantiative reality and transcending speech,
Space, awakening mind and enlightenment
Possess the characteristics of non-duality.”
- Nagarjuna, Bodhicittavivarana


....


Soh Wei Yu
And also succinctly explained by Zen Master Thich Nhat Hanh and many other masters: http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2008/ ... er-of.html
Sun of Awareness and River of Perceptions
AWAKENINGTOREALITY.COM
Sun of Awareness and River of Perceptions
Sun of Awareness and River of Perceptions

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Soh Wei Yu
One more quote by John Tan,
"The purpose of anatta is to have full blown experience of the heart -- boundlessly, completely, non-dually and non-locally. Re-read what I wrote to Jax.
In every situations, in all conditions, in all events. It is to eliminate unnecessary contrivity so that our essence can be expressed without obscuration.
Jax wants to point to the heart but is unable to express in a non-dual way... for in duality, the essence cannot be realized. All dualistic interpretation are mind made. You know the smile of Mahākāśyapa? Can you touch the heart of that smile even 2500 yrs later?
One must lose all mind and body by feeling with entire mind and body this essence which is 心 (Mind). Yet 心 (Mind) too is 不可得 (ungraspable/unobtainable).. The purpose is not to deny 心 (Mind) but rather not to place any limitations or duality so that 心 (Mind) can fully manifest.
Therefore without understanding 缘 (conditions),is to limit 心 (Mind). without understanding 缘 (conditions),is to place limitation in its manifestations. You must fully experience 心 (Mind) by realizing 无心 (No-Mind) and fully embrace the wisdom of 不可得 (ungraspable/unobtainable)." - John Tan/Thusness, 2014
http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2019/ ... heart.html
The Transient Universe has a Heart
AWAKENINGTOREALITY.COM
The Transient Universe has a Heart
The Transient Universe has a Heart
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auto
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Re: Question about "luminous mind" in Thai Forest Buddhism

Post by auto »

xabir wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 3:26 pm Buddha never taught an unchanging standalone mind.
no self, impermanence and suffering are the ideas what arise because of the deluded dull mind.
Mahaparinirvana Sutra wrote:Being subject to the veils of afflictions (klesas) and
ignorance (avidya), there arises in them the deluded mind. The self, they reckon, is
selfless. The eternal, they reckon, is impermanent. The pure, they reckon, is impure.
Happiness, they reckon, is suffering.
Because they are subject to this veil of afflictions,
while they may give rise to these ideas, they do not penetrate their meaning, just as that
drunken person who in a place that is not spinning gives rise to the perception of it
being spun.
because of afflictions, it is not possible to penetrate the meaning(self, dharmakaya, happiness) by using these(no self..) ideas, because naturally for a deluded mind, everything is presenting itself as no self already
wrote:The self, then, is the Buddha in meaning. The eternal is the essential body
(dharmakaya) in meaning. Happiness is Nirvana in meaning. The pure is the Dharma in
meaning.
someone just thinks he has realized things, but for real they take things face value, as things are: impermanent, no self... People here regularly ask to point out where the self is..
So then why not stop desiring clinging aggregates? they are not self, no self is found in them.
https://suttacentral.net/mn28/en/sujato?layout=sidebyside&reference=none&notes=asterisk&highlight=false&script=latin wrote:Giving up and getting rid of desire and greed for these five grasping aggregates is the cessation of suffering.’
Yo imesu pañcasu upādānakkhandhesu chandarāgavinayo chandarāgappahānaṁ, so dukkhanirodho’ti.
At this point, much has been done by that mendicant.
Ettāvatāpi kho, āvuso, bhikkhuno bahukataṁ hoti.
whilst everything is no self, that's just jumping on the gun, if you haven't find the self, permanence beforehand
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mjaviem
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Re: Question about "luminous mind" in Thai Forest Buddhism

Post by mjaviem »

xabir wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 3:14 pm ...
Wow! That's a lot of text!

I'm not interested in redditors and authors. Please, tell me, what are you trying to tell me?
Namo Tassa Bhagavato Arahato Sammā Sambuddhassa
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Question about "luminous mind" in Thai Forest Buddhism

Post by Coëmgenu »

auto wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 5:44 pm
xabir wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 3:26 pm Buddha never taught an unchanging standalone mind.
no self, impermanence and suffering are the ideas what arise because of the deluded dull mind.
Your statement is wrong. The Buddha realized the truths of suffering, impermanence, and furthermore realized anattā. By your reckoning, the Buddha had a deluded dull mind. This is wrong.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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mikenz66
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Re: Question about "luminous mind" in Thai Forest Buddhism

Post by mikenz66 »

mjaviem wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 5:48 pm
xabir wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 3:14 pm ...
Wow! That's a lot of text!

I'm not interested in redditors and authors. Please, tell me, what are you trying to tell me?
How I understand the Reddit post is that the idea of some "Awareness" or "Mind" outside the "all" is incorrect.
If you try to look for your Awareness, you will find nothing. You may find a sensation, a feeling, or a perception. But Awareness cannot exist, it only exists as a complete inference, a conjecture, a made-up projection.
Thanks for that, xabir.

What's not clear to me is whether the Thai Forest Ajahns who talk about such an Awareness are making a mistake, or, more charitably, are either being misunderstood or are pointing their students to examine the sense of Awareness carefully. The latter is clearly an important thing to do.

:heart:
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auto
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Re: Question about "luminous mind" in Thai Forest Buddhism

Post by auto »

Coëmgenu wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 7:50 pm
auto wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 5:44 pm
xabir wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 3:26 pm Buddha never taught an unchanging standalone mind.
no self, impermanence and suffering are the ideas what arise because of the deluded dull mind.
Your statement is wrong. The Buddha realized the truths of suffering, impermanence, and furthermore realized anattā. By your reckoning, the Buddha had a deluded dull mind. This is wrong.
You mean clinging aggregates are 3C. Hinayana view has that 3C understanding, whereas the problem is the mind what identifies with these clinging aggregates thus also start come and go, without knowing it does so. Hinayana person doesn't know if his mind is moving or not, therefore you have sutra explaining how to know, to break out of this view.
Jack19990101
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Re: Question about "luminous mind" in Thai Forest Buddhism

Post by Jack19990101 »

For example simply being aware is not luminous mind, whereas when being aware you know that there is period of unawareness, or that i were unaware - that state from a 'being aware' point of view is unaware state whereas that state is the luminous mind.
Yeah, that is it.
(To be precise in term - Bhavanga is not unaware, it is un-conscious. )

I think the key is to understand light is not luminating, it is the mind luminates light & shapes & space.
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Re: Question about "luminous mind" in Thai Forest Buddhism

Post by auto »

xabir wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 3:26 pm ..
from the article,
Master Hui Lu's commentary on Shurangama Sutra:
http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2012/12/true-mind-and-unconditioned-dharma_18.html wrote: The four great elements are also fundamentally empty, the five aggregates have always been without a 'self'.
In case of ordinary person(worldling), the five clinging aggregates are regarded as atta(sakkaya-ditthi per Sutta). In surangama sutra it is worldling inverted view(Charles Luk translation).
It is clinging aggregates, not just aggregates, it refer to the 4th khandha, if he says aggregates it would mean all the 5.
Also the form in 4th khandha is mind. He might be mixing 1st khandha mahabhutas(sorry, form only, not mahabhuts, he keeps separate) with the 4th khandha rupa.
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Re: Question about "luminous mind" in Thai Forest Buddhism

Post by auto »

xabir wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 3:26 pm 14
The Reverend then told him: "Among all forms of wisdom, I regard the wisdom of no-mind as the highest. Thus the Vimalakirti sutra says: "Neither having a conscious mind nor mental impressions and processes, he sees through the ignorant and submits those of different creed." Again, the Sutra of the Great Dharma Drum states, "If you know that there is no mind that can be attained, no objects whatsoever are grasped; neither are sincs and meritorious activities, nor life-and-death and nirvana. Indeed, nothing at all can be grasped - not-grasping included!"
i think you are going too far with the mind being anatta thing. It prolly explains non-grasping which is the basis of the absorption, what else?
https://suttacentral.net/sn22.79/en/sujato?layout=sidebyside&reference=none&notes=asterisk&highlight=false&script=latin wrote: They understand: ‘Rebirth is ended, the spiritual journey has been completed, what had to be done has been done, there is no return to any state of existence.’
This is called a mendicant who neither gets rid of things nor accumulates them, but remains after getting rid of them. They neither give things up nor grasp them, but remain after giving them up. They neither discard things nor amass them, but remain after discarding them. They neither dissipate things nor get clouded by them, but remain after dissipating them.

‘Homage to you, O thoroughbred!
‘Namo te purisājañña,
Homage to you, supreme among men!
namo te purisuttama;
We don’t understand
Yassa te nābhijānāma,
the basis of your absorption.’”
yampi nissāya jhāyasī’”ti.
non-grasping is the answer to the giving up desire for grasping aggregates.
https://suttacentral.net/sn22.69/en/sujato?layout=sidebyside&reference=none&notes=asterisk&highlight=false&script=latin wrote: “Sir, form doesn’t belong to self; I should give up desire for it.
“Rūpaṁ kho, bhante, anattaniyaṁ; tatra me chando pahātabbo.
apart from that i don't see much different context to the 'mind not being attainable' - It doesn't belong to you. And to add the mind is the 4th khandha, clinging aggregates: form, feeling, perception, sankahra, vinnana.
auto
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Re: Question about "luminous mind" in Thai Forest Buddhism

Post by auto »

xabir wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 3:26 pm ..
from the link,
"I wrote recently elsewhere":
http://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2022/05/a-peak-experience-of-no-mind-vs.html wrote:...It is easy induce a state of no-mind experience -- for example there are many stories about Zen masters giving a completely unexpected blow, a shout, a pinch on your nose out of a sudden, and in that moment of pain and shock, all sense of self and indeed all concepts are completely forgotten and only the vivid pain remains.
you have wrong ideas about sense of self, mistaking it with the mind people have in daily life. I guess most of the people i have discussed think so too.

the state you describe is the bare minimum for me, a starting point. I wonder why people haven't told you that its a noob state, doesn't require any cultivation.
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Re: Question about "luminous mind" in Thai Forest Buddhism

Post by auto »

mikenz66 wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 8:20 pm ..
nah,

he further commented
wrote:RealDharma
OP
·
4 yr. ago
In my limited experience, Awareness lies beyond the reach of the Six Senses. Whatever displays in experience really is Awareness itself.

For example, when I hear a dog barking two blocks away, the dog is not "out there", neither is the entire experience with the dog barking (sitting on a chair, looking at the window, etc) "out there". It is all within Awareness itself, spontaneous, inclusive, unified, instantaneous.

I would say instead that vijnana, consciousness, is that which houses karmic momentum. As we say in Mahayana, the alayavijnana is the Storehouse Consciousness that "houses" karmic seeds that sprout in future. Along with the other Six Senses and the Deluded Seventh Consciousness.

If we want to be technical and try to fit things, the Seventh Consciousness is more likely the "grasper onto awareness". The Seeing comes forth from the Eighth Consciousness. But we can never experience Awareness, because Awareness is itself the experienced.
tho elsewhere,
wrote:RealDharma
OP
·
4 yr. ago
....

That's what I do mean. I quoted the Sabba Sutta showing that there cannot be an "Awareness" outside of what is displayed by the Six Sense Bases. Instead, the Awareness itself is showing up as the phenomena presented as the Six Sense Bases.
the there is no awareness and no mind seem to be special lingo.. of quite base things.
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Re: Question about "luminous mind" in Thai Forest Buddhism

Post by Coëmgenu »

auto wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 10:09 pm
Coëmgenu wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 7:50 pm
auto wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 5:44 pm
no self, impermanence and suffering are the ideas what arise because of the deluded dull mind.
Your statement is wrong. The Buddha realized the truths of suffering, impermanence, and furthermore realized anattā. By your reckoning, the Buddha had a deluded dull mind. This is wrong.
You mean clinging aggregates are 3C.
What's "3C?"
auto wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 10:09 pmHinayana person doesn't know if his mind is moving or not, therefore you have sutra explaining how to know, to break out of this view.
I think the so-called "Hīnayāna" persons know that their minds are more-or-less always moving. They arise as one thing and cease as another, as stated in the so-called "Hīnayāna" sūtras, to use your terminology. Which sūtra are you talking about that explains to the śrāvakas how to break out of this view?
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
auto
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Re: Question about "luminous mind" in Thai Forest Buddhism

Post by auto »

Coëmgenu wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 6:01 pm What's "3C?"
3 characteristics: impermanence..
Coëmgenu wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 6:01 pm I think the so-called "Hīnayāna" persons know that their minds are more-or-less always moving. They arise as one thing and cease as another, as stated in the so-called "Hīnayāna" sūtras, to use your terminology. Which sūtra are you talking about that explains to the śrāvakas how to break out of this view?
Surangama sutra. What you mean by hinayana sutras in brackets? i don't think pali suttas are hinayana. Hinayana seem to be about learners who have met the noble men but still haven't completed the path.
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Re: Question about "luminous mind" in Thai Forest Buddhism

Post by Coëmgenu »

auto wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 7:12 pm
Coëmgenu wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 6:01 pm What's "3C?"
3 characteristics: impermanence..
Coëmgenu wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 6:01 pm I think the so-called "Hīnayāna" persons know that their minds are more-or-less always moving. They arise as one thing and cease as another, as stated in the so-called "Hīnayāna" sūtras, to use your terminology. Which sūtra are you talking about that explains to the śrāvakas how to break out of this view?
Surangama sutra.
I see. I personally consider the Śūraṅgamasūtra to have too much apocryphal Chinese and Dàoist material in it to be considered highly reliable. Certainly, a lot of scholars believe that there is an "Indic core" to it. I won't contest their findings. But as it is at the present, the sūtra is a mishmash of Mahāyāna Buddhadharma, Chinese folk religion, and Dàoism, and cannot be said to be of the highest order of Mahāyāna sūtras. My opinion.
auto wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 7:12 pmWhat you mean by hinayana sutras in brackets? i don't think pali suttas are hinayana. Hinayana seem to be about learners who have met the noble men but still haven't completed the path.
By putting "Hīnayāna" in quotation marks, I am stressing that this is not the language that I brought to this thread, and that I am quoting the language that you used instead of using my own wording. Regardless, given the above, your statement is still incorrect. You say that "Hinayana person doesn't know if his mind is moving or not." Learners who have met noble men but who still haven't yet completed the path can know that their mind is always moving. On a surface level, they can know this because they have heard the Buddhas' words concerning it. On a deeper level, they can know this because they have practiced to realize the wisdom of the Buddhas concerning it. I suppose in the second case, they wouldn't be "Hīnayāna" anymore, by your definition? Your definition seems to completely conflate "Hīnayāna," "worldling/pṛthagjana," and even "upāsaka" together.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
auto
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Re: Question about "luminous mind" in Thai Forest Buddhism

Post by auto »

Coëmgenu wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 11:48 pm Your definition seems to completely conflate "Hīnayāna," "worldling/pṛthagjana," and even "upāsaka" together.
I try not conflate.
Sutra says something common about both views,
surangama wrote:By missing the (True) Mind of your nature and by mistaking (illusory) objects for your Selves, you allow yourselves to be caught in the wheel (of saüsàra) thereby forcing yourselves to pass through transmigrations.20
As i understand the objects are dhamma. The mind is clinging aggregates. And what makes the hinayana different from ordinary view is that the hinayana person spots what is unmoving, yet ships it for what moves.
Coëmgenu wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 11:48 pm your statement is still incorrect. You say that "Hinayana person doesn't know if his mind is moving or not." Learners who have met noble men but who still haven't yet completed the path can know that their mind is always moving.
I agree on what you say, i am wrong. Win situation is that i try to bring something out, what the OP hasn't taken into account -OP(xabir) specifically trying to refute(sorry not refute, but play it down to level one**) the unmoving, permanent, with gigantic rooster of excerpts.
Coëmgenu wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 11:48 pm I see. I personally consider the Śūraṅgamasūtra to have too much apocryphal Chinese and Dàoist material in it to be considered highly reliable. Certainly, a lot of scholars believe that there is an "Indic core" to it. I won't contest their findings. But as it is at the present, the sūtra is a mishmash of Mahāyāna Buddhadharma, Chinese folk religion, and Dàoism, and cannot be said to be of the highest order of Mahāyāna sūtras. My opinion.
ok

** according to Mahaparinirvana sutta, buddhas have same fetters to deal with as stream entry.(no quote, take it with salt), idea is that the unmoving is not to be downplayed.
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