Ven. Anālayo's New Book

[Ceisiwr]

It seems Bhikkhu Analayo believes all those early suttas/texts were originally established at once! He seems to believe that the Buddha originally in all the early Buddhist texts created fully the complete idealistic and systematic terms for his teachings (such as samadhi or jhana)!

What do you mean “idealistic”?

Aiming for perfection!

Sorry I don’t understand what you mean?

[thomaslaw]

It seems Bhikkhu Analayo believes all those early suttas/texts were originally established at once! He seems to believe that the Buddha originally in all the early Buddhist texts created fully the complete idealistic and systematic terms for his teachings (such as samadhi or jhana)!

It is likely Bhikkhu Analayo believes that all early Buddhist texts had originated from the first Saṅgha council, based on the Pali tradition. This is very different from Ven. Yinshun (viewtopic.php?f=29&t=41910&start=30).

[asahi]

Not all early nikaya texts originated from 1st council .

[thomaslaw]

Not all early nikaya texts originated from 1st council .

Yes, I agree. It is very unlikely that all early nikaya texts were originally and completely established at once, or developed in one complete content and system.

[Alex123]

The 16th steps appears to be was developed in later periods . Breath focusing mainly is for developing samatha . Whole body training are to develop clear knowing .

Anapanasati develops all four satipatthanas.

Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, when developed & pursued, brings the four establishings of mindfulness to their culmination. The four establishings of mindfulness, when developed & pursued, bring the seven factors for awakening to their culmination. The seven factors for awakening, when developed & pursued, bring clear knowing & release to their culmination.
https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/MN/MN118.html

[Jack19990101]

I must say I am rather enjoying Ven. Anālayo's new book. It's currently only available to buy, but like all his books it will likely be made free in time. He covers some interesting topics such as

• Arguing that there has been a tendency towards simplifying mindfulness of breathing from 16 steps to 4 or even 2 in various Buddhist traditions. One example he gives is the tendency to focus on the breath to the exclusion of the whole body whilst breathing.

• Arguing against the idea of an inherently luminous mind, ideas around a viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ etc.

• Arguing that one does not develop the 4 brahmavihārās by starting with certain individuals.

• Arguing against the idea that Right Samādhi = the 4 Jhānas and that Jhāna is required for stream entry. In this section he also argues against the vipassanā movement and "insight Jhānas", the "Sutta Jhāna" arguments of Keren Arbel, Leigh Brassington and Ven. Vimalaramsi and also against Ven. Sujato's argument that Satipaṭṭhāna is a samatha exercise solely aimed at Jhāna (which he sees is in part based on the mistaken notion that Right Samādhi is always the 4 Jhānas.

All in all it's an interesting book that I recommend.

I think the listed topics, some diluted, some distorted yet somehow gained popularity.
It is curious case the origin those distortions come from, and how they have formed wide spreading, and why there is such an uniform agreement on the interpretation.
We do need to develop alternative possibilities on the topics.
Not saying the current popular interpretations are necessarily wrong, but the interpretation should be withstanding discussion, debate & good faith challenges.

Just for one example - I could never get it how the popular teaching on Brahmin vihara,
starting with an individual, so on. Neither easy to understand ppl would follow it.
We don't really need a lot of effort to tell that is very far reaching to what sutta says.

[Kamran]

Not all early nikaya texts originated from 1st council .

Yes, I agree. It is very unlikely that all early nikaya texts were originally and completely established at once, or developed in one complete content and system.

ANALAYO has proven that Chinese Agamas are virtually identical to the Pali version.

We also know that Chinese Agamas and Pali Canon were passed down orally, in two separate countries, for over 320yrs....and yet they are almost identical.

This tells us how serious the reciters/compilers were about keeping to the original. New doctrines by New sects would create new texts, but they did not change the original. We have proof of this historical fact now thanks to Analayos work.

My understanding is that there is a 150yr period after the buddhas death and before the Chinese Agamas existed which we can't confirm if the text changed.

Given the amazing dedication displayed in the 320yrs of oral transmission which we can verify, its not a huge leap of faith to think the same dedication existed the previous 150yrs and that Pali Canon and agamas are directly from the buddha or very close to it.

[thomaslaw]

Not all early nikaya texts originated from 1st council .

Yes, I agree. It is very unlikely that all early nikaya texts were originally and completely established at once, or developed in one complete content and system.

ANALAYO has proven that Chinese Agamas are virtually identical to the Pali version.

We also know that Chinese Agamas and Pali Canon were passed down orally, in two separate countries, for over 320yrs....and yet they are almost identical.

This tells us how serious the reciters/compilers were about keeping to the original. New doctrines by New sects would create new texts, but they did not change the original. We have proof of this historical fact now thanks to Analayos work.

My understanding is that there is a 150yr period after the buddhas death and before the Chinese Agamas existed which we can't confirm if the text changed.

Given the amazing dedication displayed in the 320yrs of oral transmission which we can verify, its not a huge leap of faith to think the same dedication existed the previous 150yrs and that Pali Canon and agamas are directly from the buddha or very close to it.

It seems Bhikkhu Analayo believes that the Pali and Chinese early Buddhist texts (such as the five Nikayas and four Agamas) had originated and finalised at once from the first Saṅgha council in their complete form (structure) and content, although some late, and different components of the texts identified by him.

[DNS]

ANALAYO has proven that Chinese Agamas are virtually identical to the Pali version.

We also know that Chinese Agamas and Pali Canon were passed down orally, in two separate countries, for over 320yrs....and yet they are almost identical.

This tells us how serious the reciters/compilers were about keeping to the original. New doctrines by New sects would create new texts, but they did not change the original. We have proof of this historical fact now thanks to Analayos work.

That's good. Where does Ven. Analayo report this? Which article or book?

[thomaslaw]

ANALAYO has proven that Chinese Agamas are virtually identical to the Pali version.

We also know that Chinese Agamas and Pali Canon were passed down orally, in two separate countries, for over 320yrs....and yet they are almost identical.

This tells us how serious the reciters/compilers were about keeping to the original. New doctrines by New sects would create new texts, but they did not change the original. We have proof of this historical fact now thanks to Analayos work.

That's good. Where does Ven. Analayo report this? Which article or book?

Kamran possibly refers to this book by Bhikkhu Analayo:

Early Buddhist Oral Tradition: Textual Formation and Transmission.

"In this book, Bhikkhu Anālayo summarizes his decades-long research and insights on the formation and transmission of the early Buddhist oral tradition. He examines the impact of oral transmission on early Buddhist texts, surveying the evidence for memory errors, the impact of attempts at systematization, and instances of additions and innovations. He also explores the nature of these texts as the final product of centuries of oral transmission and evaluates the type of conclusions that can—and cannot—be drawn based on them."

https://wisdomexperience.org/product/ea ... _source=IS

[Alex123]

ANALAYO has proven that Chinese Agamas are virtually identical to the Pali version.

Proven? That is quite a strong claim.

I did read many Agama suttas (translated into English) and have some questions about the above.

While it it true that most of the doctrine seems identical. There are some additional things that open a can of worms (such as "skilful means").

Also I am bothered that the background story, organization & teaching within the suttas sometimes is different.
This might seem a minor issue, but it has some more serious implications. We can't take a story of how such-and-such became an Arhat and make conclusions about the path (which is most important) based on a story in the suttas. Also inclusion of some elements (dealing with theory) can bend the readers perception of practice/emphasis.

But otherwise I am happy that I haven't seen wildly outrageous differences (like 38 factors of awakening or 5 Noble Truths). That is good.

[Nicholas Weeks]

On the oral tradition of early Buddhism:

https://www.namsebangdzo.com/Early-Budd ... 298274.htm

[Nicholas Weeks]

From his Introduction to the new book:

In the following pages I examine the early Buddhist oral tradition from the viewpoint of its formation and transmission. The central question I intend to explore is how best to understand its dynamics: What is the most appropriate model for interpreting the existence of numerous variations between versions of a discourse preserved by different reciter lineages, given that these same parallels also show a remarkable degree of similarity and correspondence (together with exhibiting features of memorization that point to a concern with accurate transmission)? The present book is meant to express my current understanding of this topic in a way accessible to the general reader.
[...]
My presentation here is meant to provide an introduction to the relevant themes rather than an exhaustive survey, which within the limitations of a single monograph is not possible. Based on excerpts from my own more detailed studies of the respective points, I present a few selected examples to illustrate patterns of more general relevance. My aim throughout is to render academic research by myself and others more widely accessible, for which reason I try my best to explain ideas and concepts that are not necessarily familiar to the general reader. I have also endeavored to keep the main text as accessible as possible by relegating the more academic type of information to annotation. In addition, each chapter concludes with a brief summary of the main points of my discussion. In this way I trust it will be possible for the general reader to ignore the annotation and just read the main text, whereas my academic colleagues will hopefully still find in the annotations the information required to substantiate my presentation

Excerpt from Analayo Bhikkhu. Early Buddhist Oral Tradition.

[asahi]

The 16th steps appears to be was developed in later periods . Breath focusing mainly is for developing samatha . Whole body training are to develop clear knowing .

Anapanasati develops all four satipatthanas.

Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, when developed & pursued, brings the four establishings of mindfulness to their culmination. The four establishings of mindfulness, when developed & pursued, bring the seven factors for awakening to their culmination. The seven factors for awakening, when developed & pursued, bring clear knowing & release to their culmination.
https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/MN/MN118.html

You probably misunderstood the exact meaning .